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Old 10-29-2020, 11:08 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Magnet18 View Post
Woot!



Interesting on the make and model. Did they use the airstream ID or the Chevy P-30 VIN?

They used the Chevy P30 VIN.
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Old 11-30-2020, 07:18 PM   #42
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Has anyone had issues with installing EFI on an HT502? This is what I read online:

"The HT 502 is intended for 1976 and earlier Chevrolet and GMC 20-series and 30 series trucks. The HT 502 is not intended for use with electronic fuel injection. When used with electroniic fuel injection, under certain heavy load and high altitude conditions, engine damage may occur due to a lean fuel mixture condition."

Source: https://www.hawksmotorsports.com/ht-502-crate-engine/
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Old 11-30-2020, 07:48 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by marcvl View Post
Has anyone had issues with installing EFI on an HT502? This is what I read online:

"The HT 502 is intended for 1976 and earlier Chevrolet and GMC 20-series and 30 series trucks. The HT 502 is not intended for use with electronic fuel injection. When used with electroniic fuel injection, under certain heavy load and high altitude conditions, engine damage may occur due to a lean fuel mixture condition."

Source: https://www.hawksmotorsports.com/ht-502-crate-engine/

No, I dont have any experience with EFI on a HT502. What I do know is that EFI systems are highly configurable. When I had the 310 with a Holley EFI and Commander 500 software, I was able to monitor and adjust the A/F ratio at any RPM under load or not. I would think that the same is the case in more recent EFI systems.
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Old 11-30-2020, 10:47 PM   #44
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I would guess they mean don't stick a factory GM efi system on it?

Gm sells a "connect and cruise" package that appears to be efi, and howell and holley both say they support it with their kits.

Lean would get picked up in the a/f ratio by the wb02 sensor and compensated for by adding more fuel
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Old 12-18-2020, 04:43 PM   #45
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After a lot of discussion and more research, I made the decision to go with a brand new HT502 engine! Along with the engine comes a new 4-speed transmission (4L80E), EFI system, and Banks Headers.

Here's the parts list (all from Jegs):
809-88890533: HT502 (CA legal)
512-XD25-1: Hughes 4L80E Extreme Truck/SUV 2WD Transmission kit
121-2760: Atomic TCM Standalone Module
121-2939: TPS Module
121-2770: Wire Harness
121-2900: Atomic EFI Master Kit (CA legal)
259-15405: Engine oil cooler kit
720-3678: Start motor heat shield
139-49073: Banks Torque Tube Manifold Set (CA legal)

The Hughes kit comes standard with a 6" shaft. Also, they will adjust the length to support using the brake at the end of the transmission (about 1/4 difference in length). So, according to Hughes, we may not need the AC Delco eBrake extension housing.

Thank you all for your feedback and input, in particular Jerry and Peter! Let me know if you see anything missing or wrong. I plan on placing the order early next week.

Exciting!!
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Old 12-18-2020, 05:44 PM   #46
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Marc,


What did you figure out with an EFI and the Air Injection system?


Dean
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Old 12-18-2020, 06:49 PM   #47
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So, MSD Atomic published an addendum (here) with detailed requirements for CARB (CA smog regulation) compliance. They require the Throttle Position Sensor Module, which I added to the parts list. They also specify that the EFI system will only work if the vehicle has an air pump installed. I don't know if my vehicle has an air pump or not. If it doesn't, I guess we'll just buy one... Or is it not that simple?
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Old 12-18-2020, 06:59 PM   #48
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That's awesome. Maybe I can finally put EFI on my 280. I will guaranty to 99.9% that your MH being a 1984 has or had Air Injection. Hopefully the previous owner left it on. There are parts no longer available like the diverter valve as KeyAir has found out and I can't find the passenger side air manifold (tubes that go into header).



Are you planning on doing the swap yourself or have you found a shop in the south bay that is up to the task?


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Old 12-18-2020, 07:07 PM   #49
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Oh no, I wouldn't dream of doing this myself. I'm just learning the basics of big block architecture, so I can pretend I know something about engines. Every time someone throws out a car term, I need to go Google it :-)

I'm working with a shop in Richmond. They have experience with big block engines. They got my beast through smog test in no time. I don't think they have done this exact upgrade yet, but the owner has 30+ years of experience so I trust they'll be able to pull this off.
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Old 12-18-2020, 07:22 PM   #50
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That's the same addendum I read the other day. See below.

My understanding is that air is either injected into the exhaust manifolds via air tubes located at each exhaust port (this is what I have, see photo) or air is injected into the catalytic converter or just before the converter. This second type is what I believe MSD states can be used. This is due to the air being injected "after" the O2 sensor which would give proper readings at the O2 sensor. Injecting air before the O2 sensor would give false readings at the O2 sensor, I'm guessing a false lean reading. This second type which injects air at the converter would have a long pipe running from the air pump down to the converter. I know I have seen this type before.





MSD Addendum:

AIR PUMP Important: If your AIR system only puts air into the exhaust manifolds, the Atomic system CANNOT be installed. The fresh air being introduced to the exhaust will cause false readings to the WB02 sensor. If your vehicle is equipped with an air pump, close attention must be paid to the air injection lines. GM used multiple types of air injection control from the 1960's to the 1980's. All of the systems Figure 1 Software Requirements used a belt driven air pump that delivers clean air into the exhaust system. Some of these systems used a diverter valve to change where the air pump sent fresh air. Early systems with a diverter valve used a thermostatic control valve (TCV) that diverted the air to the converter at 160°F coolant temperature. In later years, the TCV was replaced by an ECU, which did the same job.

During the initial setup of the Atomic, there is a selection for ‘Air Pump Equipped’ (Figure 2). This must be answered to ‘Yes’ if your vehicle is equipped with an air pump (the default is ‘No’). This will make the closed loop function of the Atomic turn on at a higher temperature to ensure that the diverter valve has switched and is sending air to the converter. This way, the WB02 will receive the true values of the exhaust gasses for the correct operation of the Atomic’s self-learning and target air-fuel ratio.
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Old 12-18-2020, 07:29 PM   #51
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I think Steve (Keyair) had posted a question about this on the MSD forum a few years back and didn't get a reply. Steve, have you found any additional info on this?
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Old 12-18-2020, 07:44 PM   #52
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I found these two stickers on top of my engine. So I guess I do have an AIR pump. Not sure how to read where air gets injected.
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Old 12-18-2020, 07:53 PM   #53
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That diagram shows the vacuum hose routing. Its important to make sure all your vacuum lines are connected as shown since the smog tech will check this.


If your MH is out in your driveway, go look on the passenger side through the wheel well just above the front tire. You can see the engine and exhaust manifold. See my picture in previous post. If you have those tubes connected to each port of the exhaust manifold (4 per side), you have air injection. You probably have the stock exhaust manifolds so they will look a little different then header tubes.
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Old 12-18-2020, 08:15 PM   #54
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Yes parked upfront. I tried to locate the manifold but couldn't. Too dark. I'll try again tomorrow in daylight.
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Old 12-18-2020, 08:43 PM   #55
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So, if I read the MSD instructions right, the problem is not the air lines into the exhaust manifold. The problem is if this is the ONLY way air gets delivered. If the diverter valve can switch air delivery from the manifold to the converter, everything is ok. If I understand this correctly, earlier diverter valves would just release air in the atmosphere when turned on (during deceleration). That will not work with Atomic EFI. However, if the diverter valve can divert air to the converter, then we're in business.

I might be totally wrong.... My understanding of these systems is very, very limited.
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Old 12-18-2020, 09:11 PM   #56
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I think you are correct, but! Yours being a 1984, I would be surprised if yours is different from mine. It might be though. Do you have catalytic converters? What year did they add converters? I don't have converters. Maybe that is because mine is a Federal version and not a California version.
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Old 12-18-2020, 09:20 PM   #57
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There is however another way around this and I'm not talking about leaving the state of California! Ha Ha! Of course, I am looking for a place to retire besides the Bay Area and Calif.

Smog techs only look to see that all parts are in place and connected properly. They don't actually verify that the air injection is actually working.

I wonder with an efficient EFI system with non-working air injection versus a carburetor would pass the sniffer test?

I know that is a strange thing for this life long liberal Californian to say, but I am an old grayed hair man and don't much give a crap any more!
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Old 12-18-2020, 11:25 PM   #58
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I read somewhere that modern EFI systems are so efficient that Airpumps are no longer necessary. So maybe that’s indeed a solution...
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Old 12-19-2020, 12:53 AM   #59
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What if we install a CARB approved after market catalytic converter like the one in the picture below.
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Old 12-19-2020, 07:55 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadstoy View Post
That's the same addendum I read the other day. See below.

My understanding is that air is either injected into the exhaust manifolds via air tubes located at each exhaust port (this is what I have, see photo) or air is injected into the catalytic converter or just before the converter. This second type is what I believe MSD states can be used. This is due to the air being injected "after" the O2 sensor which would give proper readings at the O2 sensor. Injecting air before the O2 sensor would give false readings at the O2 sensor, I'm guessing a false lean reading. This second type which injects air at the converter would have a long pipe running from the air pump down to the converter. I know I have seen this type before.





MSD Addendum:

AIR PUMP Important: If your AIR system only puts air into the exhaust manifolds, the Atomic system CANNOT be installed. The fresh air being introduced to the exhaust will cause false readings to the WB02 sensor. If your vehicle is equipped with an air pump, close attention must be paid to the air injection lines. GM used multiple types of air injection control from the 1960's to the 1980's. All of the systems Figure 1 Software Requirements used a belt driven air pump that delivers clean air into the exhaust system. Some of these systems used a diverter valve to change where the air pump sent fresh air. Early systems with a diverter valve used a thermostatic control valve (TCV) that diverted the air to the converter at 160°F coolant temperature. In later years, the TCV was replaced by an ECU, which did the same job.

During the initial setup of the Atomic, there is a selection for ‘Air Pump Equipped’ (Figure 2). This must be answered to ‘Yes’ if your vehicle is equipped with an air pump (the default is ‘No’). This will make the closed loop function of the Atomic turn on at a higher temperature to ensure that the diverter valve has switched and is sending air to the converter. This way, the WB02 will receive the true values of the exhaust gasses for the correct operation of the Atomic’s self-learning and target air-fuel ratio.

Dean, this is how the 86 345 looked with twin air pumps before I dismantled it .

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Are you looking for an exhaust manifold like this one?

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Brad
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