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Old 12-16-2015, 03:57 PM   #1561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyair View Post
Peter, I had looked on Rockauto, as they are normally great but nothing listed for my year/model. The link you posted took me to the main page, and a search of diverter valves didnt give me any that matched. I searched my part #17084016 and nothing.
I will post a pic of it when I get a min.

Barad, if by chance you find that pump, and its the same as mine, i sure we can reach an agreement!
I may have misunderstood you. I thought you were looking for the entire pump
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Old 12-16-2015, 04:05 PM   #1562
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Thanks Brad!

No problem Peter, the pumps are available i think, but the Diverter valve assembly that mounts on them and shuts off air injection under deceleration is not.
I found one that looks similar... but at $300 it is a risk!
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Old 12-16-2015, 06:04 PM   #1563
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Ok Steve, here's what I've got stashed away in the barn loft. The 86 345 had two smog pumps, one on top of the intake manifold and the other on the side below the alternator.

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Also is this the fan you're taking about? I don't remember if this one came from the 345 or if it came from on of the U-pick-it places in or around Pasadena.
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I have one on my Argosy 454 and I think it's the one that was actually on the 345 as I also used the fan clutch from the 345.

Brad
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:14 PM   #1564
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Yes, Brad thats the 7 blader!
Sadly, those smog pumps are not like mine, and by the look of the electrical connector, ECM driven. Ugh... I was hoping!

Here is my Vacuum driven diverter... note, i broke it open, and resealed the vacuum cap, with no luck.



So, today was a wash...
Late start due to client calls, and problems when I did get going.

I shortened the melted starter cable, and soldered a new terminal on, and heatshrinked over the cable.
But with the new heat shield and terminal, I could not get the starter/cables into place... holding a Big Block starter and stiff heavy wires up over your head is a workout for sure!
Gave up.... needed to rethink this!

While I was working on that, I spotted another issue...
I have a HUGE red cable(maybe 00 gauge) running from my battery drawer to the solenoid on the drivers bulkhead..
The one on the right in this pic...


Anyway, nice cable but badly routed...
It comes along the OUTSIDE pass side chassis rail... rolls up and over the rail, and then goes inside, zip tied to the FUEL lines, past the headers(insulation is already heat bubbled). Goes under the engine mount, and fuel pump, and then across the front X member(hanging down below the bumper) and then to the the solenoid.
Not good. AT ALL!
I pulled the darn thing out, and will reroute it... If I can't do a better, safer job, take me outback and shoot me, someone please!

Hoping tomorrow will be more productive.
Oh, and it looks like my PS pump is leaking...

Ok, here is a pic looking up from underneath at my radiator fan/shroud.
Fwd is up...


Remnants of tinwork on pass side tells a story...
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:02 AM   #1565
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Steve,

Choose your words carefully…..

Brad was talking about shooting things earlier today!
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:06 AM   #1566
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Steve,

Re: the big red wire….

Is that part of the system that's connecting your "house" battery bank to the engine battery for emergency starting power?
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Old 12-17-2015, 05:59 AM   #1567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyair View Post
....

Ok, here is a pic looking up from underneath at my radiator fan/shroud.
Fwd is up...


Remnants of tinwork on pass side tells a story...
identical to mine, except someone cut the access hole for the fan in the shroud. Well, that's just too cool, because all I need to do is drill out my fancy alu patch to gain access.
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Old 12-17-2015, 06:13 AM   #1568
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Originally Posted by Keyair View Post
Yes, Brad thats the 7 blader!
Sadly, those smog pumps are not like mine, and by the look of the electrical connector, ECM driven. Ugh... I was hoping!
Steve, no ECM on the 86. It surprises me that GM would have used so many different versions of smog equipment in the span of 3 years. Are you 100% sure you've collected the right equipment for your system? I wish I had taken pictures of my old 310 before it left the property but I didn't

Sorry these weren't what you were looking for.

Brd
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Old 12-17-2015, 06:14 AM   #1569
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Steve,

Re: the big red wire….

Is that part of the system that's connecting your "house" battery bank to the engine battery for emergency starting power?
That's what it looks like to me as well.
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Old 12-17-2015, 06:20 AM   #1570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyair View Post

While I was working on that, I spotted another issue...
I have a HUGE red cable(maybe 00 gauge) running from my battery drawer to the solenoid on the drivers bulkhead..
The one on the right in this pic...


Anyway, nice cable but badly routed...
It comes along the OUTSIDE pass side chassis rail... rolls up and over the rail, and then goes inside, zip tied to the FUEL lines, past the headers(insulation is already heat bubbled). Goes under the engine mount, and fuel pump, and then across the front X member(hanging down below the bumper) and then to the the solenoid.
Not good. AT ALL!
I pulled the darn thing out, and will reroute it... If I can't do a better, safer job, take me outback and shoot me, someone please..
Steve, will do ...
Before you reroute it, you may want to rethink that entire situation.
Those starter relays (combining house and engine batteries either by switch or ignition) are typically located right outside of the battery tray, specifically on the back of the tray or right on the frame. For the obvious reason.
Why yours were routed in an unsafe way all the way to the front does not make sense, since you already should have the isolator there to use as a power tap. Have you found where your alt wire is connected to. I can see another 6ga wire on the left by the fuses that should be another coach battery wire.
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Old 12-17-2015, 06:21 AM   #1571
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Originally Posted by PeterH-Airstreamer View Post
identical to mine, except someone cut the access hole for the fan in the shroud. Well, that's just too cool, because all I need to do is drill out my fancy alu patch to gain access.
I don't think that cutout in the shroud should be there. Seems as it would be counter productive for cooling efficiency.

Peter, if you look at the picture of the shroud I posted in our thread you'll notice there is no cutout like that.

Steve, is your's a one piece or two piece shroud?

I know the one on my Argosy was one piece and I've been contemplating cutting it in have to make it two piece. I haven't made that decision as yet because once I do it, it's irreversible

Brad
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Old 12-17-2015, 06:23 AM   #1572
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Steve, will do ...
Before you reroute it, you may want to rethink that entire situation.
Those starter relays (combining house and engine batteries either by switch or ignition) or typically located right outside of the battery tray, specifically on the back of the tray or right on the frame. For the obvious reason.
Why yours were routed in an unsafe way all the way to the front does not make sense, since you already should have the isolator there to use as a power tap. Have you found where your alt wire is connected to. I can see another 6ga wire on the left by the fuses that should be another coach battery wire.
What is even stranger is he doesn't seem to have a battery isolator for charging the coach and chassis batteries at least not in the normal location.

Steve's coach sure does have some weird electrical anomalies
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Old 12-17-2015, 08:35 AM   #1573
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Good info guys...
I just woke up, and read all this, but need to confirm a few facts when I go back over.
I know the following, attached to the starter main lug there are 3 cables.
1/ Big HD(0 gauge I think) power cable from a square junction box behind the battery tray. This goes over the chassis rail to the main lug on the starter. That one is good.
2/ Second heavy cable attached to the main lug on starter with cable #1 above. This is the one that had melted. This one goes rearward from starter, then up and runs around the rear of the doghouse/engine, and along the drivers side and forward to the same solenoid that the large red cable in my pic before. I think it's the heavy cable on the left of it, opposite the red cable.
3/ a smaller gauge cable that goes forward with some others along the oil pan rail, and is taped into that bundle that goes up the front of the engine coming out behind the water pump...
I will try to trace the Alt cable.
My issue yesterday was these cables are stiff, and I just could not get them into position ... The heat shield now blocks the main lug from view AND nut access, and cable #3 is too short to bolt on before putting the starter into place.
I suspect I will be cutting the starter shield back or rerouting more wires!
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Old 12-17-2015, 09:38 AM   #1574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyair View Post
Good info guys...
I just woke up, and read all this, but need to confirm a few facts when I go back over.
I know the following, attached to the starter main lug there are 3 cables.
1/ Big HD(0 gauge I think) power cable from a square junction box behind the battery tray. This goes over the chassis rail to the main lug on the starter. That one is good.
2/ Second heavy cable attached to the main lug on starter with cable #1 above. This is the one that had melted. This one goes rearward from starter, then up and runs around the rear of the doghouse/engine, and along the drivers side and forward to the same solenoid that the large red cable in my pic before. I think it's the heavy cable on the left of it, opposite the red cable.
3/ a smaller gauge cable that goes forward with some others along the oil pan rail, and is taped into that bundle that goes up the front of the engine coming out behind the water pump...
I will try to trace the Alt cable.
My issue yesterday was these cables are stiff, and I just could not get them into position ... The heat shield now blocks the main lug from view AND nut access, and cable #3 is too short to bolt on before putting the starter into place.
I suspect I will be cutting the starter shield back or rerouting more wires!

Steve take a picture for us of the square box behind the tray.
Also it would be interesting to know where the second heavy cable on your starter solenoids left side goes to. I would bet it goes to the Motor battery, which would make it a redundant loop.
If it was me (and i am electr challenged but a fast learner), I would move the starter solenoid to the back of the battery tray and eliminate all those heavy cables running to the front including #2 and use the second heavy on the left for future heavy duty alt applications (if it indeed runs to the motor battery)
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Old 12-17-2015, 10:25 AM   #1575
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Will do.
My worry is my clock is ticking... I must have the mh up and running to move between Xmas and New year. My focus must be getting the cables rerouted safely for a 40 mile run. I can get into bigger stuff later.
It just shocked me to see that huge red cable inside the chassis rail strapped to the fuel lines and within 1" of the header tubes... The insulation is OK, but I see micro blisters on it. All of those cables were badly routed and pulled tight onto the sharp edges chassis rails. Not good.

On the fan shroud, I confirm it is in 2 pieces split into upper and lower about the fan centerline. I see the advantage of making a closing panel to shut the gap I photographed.
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Old 12-17-2015, 11:07 AM   #1576
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Key, if you can get the starter in without doing any electrical modifications I think that I would get it running "as is" until you get it to the new destination. Your rig has obviously been modified from original electrically speaking. It may take a few days or more to get it sorted out and put back together the way you want it permanently. That heavy gage wire is expensive and so are some of the other componants like a new isolator. (Depending on what size and if you plan on installing an isolator). So rather than getting started on the electrical under a pretty tight deadline I would wait till its parked at a location where it can be disabled for as long as it takes to get things put together the way you ultimately want. There is a good deal of head scratching in sorting out the electrical on these Classics, and youre not starting from oem so you first need to know what the PO did. That in itself could be pretty time consuming. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-17-2015, 11:33 AM   #1577
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Agreed!

I guess I am puzzled, so I need to post this pic again...



From this view, on the right, the large red cable is the one I pulled out yesterday.
I believe that red cable comes from the House batteries...
Now, see the two heavy cables(one going up, and one down), on the left side of the relay/solenoid thingy... One goes all the way along the drivers side of the doghouse, around the back of the engine to the lug on the starter(the wire that was melted), and the other(I think!) feeds the HWH leveler pump.
You guys have a different type of thingy/isolator there...
Mine looks original to me... and you guys have a isolator that looks aftermarket...

Now, what does the solenoid/isolator on the bracket on top of the engine do???
Top RH side of this pic fwd of the cruise control...
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:56 PM   #1578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyair View Post
Agreed!

I guess I am puzzled, so I need to post this pic again...



From this view, on the right, the large red cable is the one I pulled out yesterday.
I believe that red cable comes from the House batteries...
Now, see the two heavy cables(one going up, and one down), on the left side of the relay/solenoid thingy... One goes all the way along the drivers side of the doghouse, around the back of the engine to the lug on the starter(the wire that was melted), and the other(I think!) feeds the HWH leveler pump.
You guys have a different type of thingy/isolator there...
Mine looks original to me... and you guys have a isolator that looks aftermarket...
It might be helpful if you could provide a sketch of the heavy gauge wiring and where it all goes to such as solenoids, batteries, etc.

As far as I know your's is the only classic I've seen with a solenoid in place of one of the blue Isolator boxes.

Quote:
Now, what does the solenoid/isolator on the bracket on top of the engine do???
Top RH side of this pic fwd of the cruise control...

Wires to your starter solenoid should route through that solenoid. This was added as a fix for starter solenoids that weren't working after getting hot. It's outlined in one of the GM bulletins. At some point it became standard installation on all P30s.

My Argosy didn't come with one but courtesy of the 345 it does now
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:59 PM   #1579
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Key, if you can get the starter in without doing any electrical modifications I think that I would get it running "as is" until you get it to the new destination. Your rig has obviously been modified from original electrically speaking. It may take a few days or more to get it sorted out and put back together the way you want it permanently. That heavy gage wire is expensive and so are some of the other componants like a new isolator. (Depending on what size and if you plan on installing an isolator). So rather than getting started on the electrical under a pretty tight deadline I would wait till its parked at a location where it can be disabled for as long as it takes to get things put together the way you ultimately want. There is a good deal of head scratching in sorting out the electrical on these Classics, and youre not starting from oem so you first need to know what the PO did. That in itself could be pretty time consuming. Just my 2 cents.
What Mike said.....
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Old 12-17-2015, 01:03 PM   #1580
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Now it makes sense, yours is a 84 345, a new model with levelers, thats where the second heavy wire goes. So this was their first version of dealing with it.
The relay in the front connects all batteries for starting, either via ignition or a switch in your glove compartment.
The relay on the top of your engine is the starter relay and it also serves as a junction block for the alternator charging wire AFTER it s supposed to go to the Isolator.
I also agree with Mike under your circumstances.
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