Furnace and reading lights out? 1977 Argosy 20 MH

[ViewRVs]

You mentioned that when you connect power to that wire you have power to the furnace. Is that correct?
Yes, and the 12v outlet.

Is the wire at the fuse box purple or lavender? I don't see a lavender wire.
Purple (the lavender wire comes out of the ceiling to the center part of the light fixture from the wal switch. Those lights work.)

What are the two switches for?
They are for the reading lights at either end of the light fixture.

The wires look in good shape. In looking at the fuse panel it appears that the purple wire goes into a sheathed cable along with other wires. Is this correct.
Correct.

Where is the furnace located relative to the light?
The furnace is toward the rear of the coach (road side), the 12v outlet is mid-coach on the road side).

Are you sure the purple wire doesn't go to the furnace first then to the outlet and light. When you connect the power to the purple wire at the light you could be feeding back to the furnace and outlet.
That is a possibility I have not thought of. I know that I do not have continuity from the 12v panel the 12v outlet or the light fixture. The wiring between the 3 items is good. I just need to figure out which one gets fed first from the 12v panel.

[ViewRVs]

Known:

• Issue is isolated the purple circuit.
• The blown fuse the PO encountered is likely a loose connection or short.
• I have continuity between the three items (furnace, 12v outlet, light) on the circuit.
• All three operate with separate 12v line run.
• There is no continuity to the purple wire in the 12v panel.
• I have no way of knowing the route of the purple wire.

Mission:

• Follow the purple wire starting at the 12v panel to find the short, bad wire, bad connection.

Question:
Was it common for Airstream to split the circuit inside the walls? What do those connections look like?

[TG Twinkie]

Can't answer the question about inside wall connections. But A$ does make connections inside the wall for devices like the running lights.
Can you look where the furnace connection is made to see if there are 2 purple wires? Perhaps one has come lose.
If not there, is there a possibility that some other 12 volt device has the purple wire you are looking for. Wherever the purple wire runs there will be 2 wires, one coming in and one going out to the next device in the circuit. The only places you will find one wire is at the fuse panel and at the last device in the circuit.

[TG Twinkie]

Have you made any progress on the purple wire problem?

[ViewRVs]

Just a little progress on the wiring. I am heading out on Thursday to Florida so I won't need the furnace there! I did run a separate 12v wire over to the 12v outlet and all three items are working. The furnace actually fires up nicely! I will still need to trace that wire this summer to find the short/open circuit.

I have installed my new curtains, changed spark plugs, filters, etc. I also had to fabricate a new shower curtain including cutting it and installing the snaps. I received the LED light bulbs. They work great for the outside lights that tend to get very hot. They are not so great for the inside. The bright white light is more like an office than a warm home. I also set up my trailer hitch bike rack. I ordered the wrong hitch extension from Amazon and I had to run to U-Haul to get the correct one!

I also had to fix a water leak from the air conditioner. The PO had it installed and it was done incorrectly.

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by 1985air345

...Was it common for Airstream to split the circuit inside the walls? What do those connections look like?

Fred, I can answer this question. Yes Airstream did split circuits inside the walls. When I dismantled the 345 there were probably dozens of wires splitting off and running in different directions. I will say however the all of those connections seemed to be well made and insulated. Based on what I observed I would be very surprised if any connection spliced inside the walls could fail.

I'm not a fan of splicing wires like that and then burying them inside a wall or ceiling but the quality of the splice tells me they are probably secure and safe.

Did you ever get your purple wire issue resolved?

Brad

[ViewRVs]

I resolved it with a work-around! I ran another wire back behind the sofa and up through the wall to the 12v outlet. I used some plastic cable track from Lowe's to make it look better and protect the wire. The walls are too hard to disassemble to access the wiring.

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by 1985air345

I resolved it with a work-around! I ran another wire back behind the sofa and up through the wall to the 12v outlet. I used some plastic cable track from Lowe's to make it look better and protect the wire. The walls are too hard to disassemble to access the wiring.

Trying to get access behind the walls or ceilings is not for the faint of heart. I learned a lot while dismantling that 345 and I hope to heck I never have to get inside those spaces to fix something.

Based on what I saw in the 345 I would be surprised if there is an actual physical problem with a wire inside the wall. The exception to that would be if someone drilled a hole, installed a rivet or screw or using some other means penetrated the inner (or outer) skin and damaged a wire.

The problem is most likely going to be near a connection point. When you finally get your factory service manual hopefully you'll be able to see the routing of that purple wire.

If I remember right Keyair (Steve) bought something that generates a signal on wire that allows you to trace it's route. That might be one approach to finding where it goes.

Brad

[ViewRVs]

Well now I have issues with two other circuits. I think I have mice in my unit. I saw some droppings while working on the AC/Fan/TV antenna but chalked it off to the unit being 35 years old. Everything was working 2 days ago and I have not done anything since then except pull out one walkway light in the rear of the coach.

I was supposed to leave tomorrow for Florida but without a water pump, that isn't happening. Argghhh!

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by 1985air345

Well now I have issues with two other circuits. I think I have mice in my unit. I saw some droppings while working on the AC/Fan/TV antenna but chalked it off to the unit being 35 years old. Everything was working 2 days ago and I have not done anything since then except pull out one walkway light in the rear of the coach.

I was supposed to leave tomorrow for Florida but without a water pump, that isn't happening. Argghhh!

As a quick and dirty work around you can always run a wire from the fuse panel, across the floor to the water pump. I know you have experience with this method

Not a preferred approach but better than the alternative.

I'm assuming you've checked the fuses and they are good. One thing I noticed on our 310 with the original univolt fuse panel was the connectors that hold the (glass) fuses are riveted to the board and can be problematic. Corrosion on those connectors can be a bad thing.

On the 310 I ended up replacing the fuse board with the ATC style of fuse board and am glad I did. I'll be doing the same thing on the Argosy when I replace the univolt this winter.

[ViewRVs]

Originally Posted by bkahler

I'm assuming you've checked the fuses and they are good. One thing I noticed on our 310 with the original univolt fuse panel was the connectors that hold the (glass) fuses are riveted to the board and can be problematic. Corrosion on those connectors can be a bad thing.

Yes. I have a strong 12-13v on either side of all 5 fuses/circuits on my 12v panel. When I run a separate wire to the mid-coach ceiling light, I can operate the rear lights and the dinette light. The wiring issue is forward of the center vent just like the purple wire! The only problem this time is my water pump and radio do not come back on when using the patch. I am not sure if that is because of the location of my connection or they are on a separate circuit.

I may be back to tearing down the center ceiling panel!

I just wish that I mapped out the circuits when everything was working! Dang!

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by 1985air345

Yes. I have a strong 12-13v on either side of all 5 fuses/circuits on my 12v panel. When I run a separate wire to the mid-coach ceiling light, I can operate the rear lights and the dinette light. The wiring issue is forward of the center vent just like the purple wire! The only problem this time is my water pump and radio do not come back on when using the patch. I am not sure if that is because of the location of my connection or they are on a separate circuit.

I may be back to tearing down the center ceiling panel!

I just wish that I mapped out the circuits when everything was working! Dang!

It sure would be nice to have a service manual wouldn't it

Before you start thinking about pulling down that center panel there are a lot of troubleshooting steps that can be done. I'm assuming your goal at the moment is to get the pump working so you can take it to Florida for its paint job. If that's the case run jumper wires where ever you have to just to get you there. With luck you'll have the service manual in hand by the time the paint job is done.

Once you get the Argosy back I'm more than willing to drive over from Richmond for a weekend to give you a hand in really digging into the wiring to see if we can resolve your problems.

Other than factory screws and rivets are there any other fasteners screwed into the walls or ceiling (both interior and exterior)?

Brad

[ViewRVs]

Today has been very destructive and successful all at the same time.

1. I did pull down the center ceiling panel and found rodent droppings.
2. I did find the other end main cable housing as it enters the ceiling and the four main circuit wires.
3. I did NOT have continuity on my yellow and purple wires back to the 12v panel. This troubled me since that would mean the short is in the main cable run.
4. I started looking back at the 12v panel and noticed that the wires exited into the right front wheel well.
5. The wires in the wheel well are coated with a black undercoating and go into a foam rubber insert.
6. As I was identifying the wires, the PURPLE wire pulls out into my hand!
7. I pulled back the foam rubber insert and found a HUGE rodent nest!
8. It appears that the rodent(s) are entering through the right wheel well and following the cable run up to the ceiling.

Now I just need to clean out the mess, check my wiring for continuity and see if that fixes my issues. (Then I have this small problem/task of putting back up the ceiling panel that I might have pulled down for no reason!)



I have my camera with me and I have been taking pictures. I will post them later.


FYI - If you decide to pull down your ceiling panel, remove the front and rear caps FIRST. The rear cap involves removing the bathroom wall.

[ViewRVs]

Question: Is there a certain type of spray foam I should use to fill the void? Do they make a flexible expanding foam?

[ViewRVs]

Turns out there are FOUR wires broken there (purple, yellow, brown, and a misc wire) and a severely worn wire. I am headed to NAPA for some wire and connectors to repair the wiring. This ends up being 3 of my 4 12v circuits! Yikes!

There is a C-channel bar there in the wheel well. All of them appear to be worn/broken where the C-channel sticks up. It must have been a combination of the rodents and the wear of the wires siting on the C-channel. Of course there could have also been some arching due to a short.

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by 1985air345

Question: Is there a certain type of spray foam I should use to fill the void? Do they make a flexible expanding foam?

I don't know how well expanding foam keeps out rodents. I would almost consider using one of the Vulkem products. I saw no signs on the 345 that I dismantled of rodents being interested in that stuff

Hopefully someone will come back with a better answer.

Good job of tracking down your problem and troubleshooting. I was hoping you wouldn't take your ceiling down except as a last resort. I learned on that 345 that I do NOT want to mess with the ceiling panel or end caps unless I absolutely have too

Brad

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by 1985air345

Turns out there are FOUR wires broken there (purple, yellow, brown, and a misc wire) and a severely worn wire. I am headed to NAPA for some wire and connectors to repair the wiring. This ends up being 3 of my 4 12v circuits! Yikes!

There is a C-channel bar there in the wheel well. All of them appear to be worn/broken where the C-channel sticks up. It must have been a combination of the rodents and the wear of the wires siting on the C-channel. Of course there could have also been some arching due to a short.

Wow, quite a wiring nightmare. Should be able to tell if arcing was the cause by looking closely at the ends of the wires. Makes me wonder about my 74 Argosy now. One of these days when I have some spare time (yeah right) I need to crawl all over mine to see what hidden horrors are waiting for me.

Brad

[Keyair]

I agree Brad, and you are the man now with your dismantling of the 345... you have the knowledge!

Screws, penetrating walls and piercing wires?
Wow, what are the chances of that!!!!
The tools I have are a Powerprobe 3 and Powerprobe ECT2000 Short finder.
With the season of giving coming, they should be on every motorhome owners list!

For those that have not seen this...
I had a dead short on the Horn/Cigar lighter circuit...
Had no clue where...
The ECT 2000 inserts a traceable tone into a wire you need to trace...
It also tells you by tone if the wire is shorted to ground or open...
Note that the green parts are bulb adapters that allow you to check bulb sockets!


Mine was dead shorted, and I traced the tone to the drivers side...
I bagan to take of the trim panel, and as I unscrewed on of the trim screws, the tone changed from the "Shorted" tone to the "Open" tone...

Here is where it was...
This Trim screw in the drivers side trim, pierced the wire PREFECTLY!
The wire was inside the trim... I pulled it out for show..

[ViewRVs]

Quick update - I did repair all of the wires and all of my 12v system is now back online including that pesky purple wire! I did heat wrap the wires and also put them in the plastic cord tube/wrap (?) from NAPA. Saturday's task is to put my ceiling back together! My vintage ceiling lights were crumbling so I'll have to grab some new ones at Camping World.