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Old 11-21-2017, 04:13 PM   #1121
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WOW, I just about can't afford to not have that done! Looks great and saves me the hours of labor that I'd have to put in to cobbling the originals. Also that design minimizes the exposure of the subfloor to the weather. I'll be heading to the fab shop tomorrow!
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Old 11-21-2017, 04:41 PM   #1122
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Originally Posted by bkahler View Post
In order to keep Tony happy I opted to go with Coosa board for the flooring replacement

Made a day trip down to Knoxville to pick up three sheets of 1/2" Coosa Blue Water 20 board. This stuff is incredibly light! The round trip took about 6 hours out of my day so hopefully it turns out to be worth the time and expense

Brad
Surprised you went with the Bluewater 20 and not the 26 but like I said if you go with a fairly ridgid flooring on top or add structure inbetween the big spans, it shouldn't be a problem. When I ordered my 5/8" Coosa, the guy in the Marina said it should be good for spans up to 16".

Surprisingly light!

Tony happy now.

Cheers
Tony
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Old 11-21-2017, 05:18 PM   #1123
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Originally Posted by Isuzusweet View Post
Surprised you went with the Bluewater 20 and not the 26 but like I said if you go with a fairly ridgid flooring on top or add structure inbetween the big spans, it shouldn't be a problem. When I ordered my 5/8" Coosa, the guy in the Marina said it should be good for spans up to 16".

Surprisingly light!

Tony happy now.

Cheers
Tony
They didn't stock the 26 and implied they didn't want to bother trying. Looking at my metal floor grid I think I will add another row of tubing to provide more structural support.

Knowing Tony is happy makes me happy
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Old 11-21-2017, 05:26 PM   #1124
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Originally Posted by Scottorious View Post
WOW, I just about can't afford to not have that done! Looks great and saves me the hours of labor that I'd have to put in to cobbling the originals. Also that design minimizes the exposure of the subfloor to the weather. I'll be heading to the fab shop tomorrow!
I don't remember if you mentioned it or not, are you gutting the interior down to the bare floor?

One of the issues I had with the plastic covers was the fact they sat on top of the wood floor which meant the water being splashed in the wheel well destroyed the wood flooring around the cover.

The metal ones are designed to fasten to the steel floor grid so I made them 1/2" taller.

Brsd
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Old 11-21-2017, 07:16 PM   #1125
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Looking GOOD Brad!

And there was me thinking YOU had that whole TIG thing dialed in!
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Old 11-22-2017, 04:52 AM   #1126
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Originally Posted by bkahler View Post

The metal ones are designed to fasten to the steel floor grid so I made them 1/2" taller.

Brsd
I am pulling out the old floor and I didn't like the previous arrangement either. Bolting directly to the frame makes perfect sense. Reusing the plastic covers will obviously be out. Do you plan on insulating and covering these?
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:04 AM   #1127
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I am pulling out the old floor and I didn't like the previous arrangement either. Bolting directly to the frame makes perfect sense. Reusing the plastic covers will obviously be out. Do you plan on insulating and covering these?
When you do fasten the covers to the steel framework be sure and use a sealant like Trempro 635 between the cover and the framework.

On your 28' is the steel floor tubing sitting on edge or are the pieces laying flat?

Brad
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Old 11-22-2017, 09:03 AM   #1128
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Sadly my frame is all laying flat. I have a little bit of sag from the center to the side. Not much though. I just mocked up in Google Sketchup the wheel well. Do these measurements looks about right to you? I suppose every moho is a bit different but this looks good for mine. No intention to hijack your thread, Just didn't see much use in starting a wheel well specific thread.
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Old 11-22-2017, 10:29 AM   #1129
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Originally Posted by Scottorious View Post
Sadly my frame is all laying flat. I have a little bit of sag from the center to the side. Not much though. I just mocked up in Google Sketchup the wheel well. Do these measurements looks about right to you? I suppose every moho is a bit different but this looks good for mine. No intention to hijack your thread, Just didn't see much use in starting a wheel well specific thread.
The shape is right. Your dimensions are larger overall but your's is a 28' and I'm guessing it has the 10 lug wheels. From what I've seen coaches with the 10 lug wheels had larger wheel wells because they ran larger tires.

The only thing you might look closer at is the size of the flanges. I made mine 3" after much measuring. The extra inch can always but cut off but if they are 2" and you need more then you're sorta stuck

Oh yeah, one more thing. Definitely check your 6-3/4" dimension closely. If it's to tall you might have a problem. That was the one dimension I was most concerned about on mine. Better to double check and be sure on that one!

Brad
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Old 11-22-2017, 10:12 PM   #1130
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Took a good part of my evening to read this thread. Have gone thru two other long ones last few days. My hats off to any motorhome restoration! You guys define dedicated (but born masochistic? British cars?).

A question that came up early in this thread. On using an airspeed indicator.

(Gather 'round children so Granpa doesn't lose his voice)

First saw one used in a 1950s car. And last one in a 1970s motorhome (with a real motor, a Chrysler Marine & Industrial 440-3).

An airspeed indicator is used to find both prevailing winds, and to make better ground speed calculations. Where Air Resistance is used to make engine rpm calls. And ground speed falls where it may.

As we know, air resistance starts to climb out at 60-mph. And, given local conditions, one may or may not be traveling the 58-mph the speedometer is calling out.

A strong enough tailwind, and 64-mph ground speed possible with 58-mph airspeed. Clear?

The bad days it's 52-mph GS at 66-mph airspeed.

The trick set-up was to have this line of instruments across dash top:

Air Speed Indicator
Tachometer
Engine Fuel Flow Meter
Engine Vacuum

Where the latter three were clocked to show 12-noon at 55-mph under ideal conditions. The first, 60. (Fuel Flow was 6-8/hour; Floscan)

Great for fuel economy obviously. Better for knowing when to downshift on a grade as waiting for engine rpm to drop was too slow.

Point was that one could run hard, but not strain the drivetrain. Or drive strictly for economy.

The gauge line became part of ones peripheral vision after awhile.

The other two gauges to have in the Moho of this thread are:

Engine Oil Temperature
Engine Hour Meter

As in grade ascents/descents, the coolant gauge may move rapidly. But keeping an eye on oil temp (220F about right) tells one whether the motor is genuinely getting hot. In a big truck it's what I use (with maybe a pyrometer) to determine when to downshift and/or override the mechanical fan (25-HP loss to engine).

The Engine Hour Meter -- besides service intervals -- is to calculate average mph. Trip planning (is it 40, 45 or 52-mph?). Fuel burn. Etc. Knowing averages means predictability. And predictability means longevity/reliability. Engine life is essentially X hours at Y speed. My Cummins is a 10,000-hr motor at 35-mph; the B50 life (and anything under 27-mph means operator needs to make changes; too much idle time).

I haven't seen a discussion thus far about the engine cooling fan shroud. It's vital. Blade tips should extend out about one-quarter to one-third, and tip to shroud clearance about a 1/2-inch. The rest of the back of the shroud should be closed.

A deep and full width air dam under the radiator to induce a low pressure draw.

Am I seeing that a fuel return is being used? We were doing this in the 1960s and '70's. An AFB could be modded with the return opposite the feed with two FP regulators (the trick was to vacuum-reference one of them). An electric pump and water separator was installed at the fuel tank to feed the mechanical engine mount pump. We'd also isolate the carb from the manifold a bit better than stock. Cold carb and warm manifold.

Nor have I seen anything about power steering coolers. Mandatory, IMO. Can overheat system while backing to a tight spot. Backing a trailer, even more so. In winter, to boot.

I really like the ATF cooler setup on this Argosy. Hope the sump temp proves it good.

I would also want to install filters downstream of coolers on the ATF & PSF. Engine coolant as well.

One last word is the air cleaner setup. That tight little bonnet at the fuel mixer isn't big enough. There's a reason OEM setups use a large canister. Same with Banks and others. There has to be a considerable space from which to draw. Big motor = big gulps.

Cold air draw is only good when needed. At full throttle. Otherwise, air heated to 105-115F is best for combustion pre-mix. Not to mention at start-up. Hot air draw is a sheet metal "canister" open-ended over the header tubes. Thermostatic control. Vacuum motor.

Placement of the air filter in configuration shown will alternate between hot & cold depending on air speed. If vehicle were only accelerating, it would be okay. But FE is about transitional states. Constant air temps (warm) work better. Gasoline or diesel.

I'm not trying to create more work for anyone (y'all are scary in what you're willing to do), but I am urging more investigation.

All the pics, the skill demonstrations and the lively support make these Moho threads a really great read. Thanks!

.
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Old 11-23-2017, 02:31 AM   #1131
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On the air cleaner housing and associated: best quick article is from Car Life in 1967. Oldsmobile Cutlass with option L66 Turnpike Cruiser. Option K50 is the Climatic Combustion Control Air system.

See the website Oldsmobility for an article and photograph re-print. And another at oneownercollectorcar on the Oldsmobile Turnpike Cruiser.

The ecomodder site on a WAI (warm air intake) on modern vehicles; as well as elsewhere.

Discussions about housing size elsewhere.
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Old 11-23-2017, 03:26 AM   #1132
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Fusick Automotive has a surprising amount of Oldsmobile air cleaner setups. The high performance stuff could also be adapted for WOT operation.

Look for the CCC in an images search. A catalog brochure page will come up and others will show thermostat and vac motor operation.
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Old 11-23-2017, 07:22 AM   #1133
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Slowmover now I have a better idea why my 1960 Chrysler has an altimeter above the rearview mirror.Click image for larger version

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Old 11-23-2017, 08:16 AM   #1134
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Thanks! I flat forgot to add that. Altimeter/Barometer. Plus OAT (outside temperature gauge). Standard equipment with that row of dashtop gauges mentioned. And compass. Kept my "cast iron" 1950s pieces till they just wore out.

As a teen I remember how much fun it was to have drilled out the plug, and made a tool to adjust the APT on a QuadraJet after a rod change. The aneroid bellows kit on a Cadillac was pretty cool as it would use barometric pressure to adjust A/F.

EFI certainly superior. But electronic ignition and a spreadbore was king for twenty years.

The "test" was getting over some of the Colorado Rockies passes. A 440-3 motorhome with a well-sorted ThermoQuad. Okay. A clueless 454 owner . . . that's why there were wreckers standing by to get you over the last mile. La Veta, Independence, etc.

I laughed in reading bobmiller and 5-mph over the top. Yup, remember that. As my Dad said, can't do with the motorhome what he'd had to do with the 1929 Hupmobile growing up in Colorado: stop, swing it around, and proceed uphill in reverse. All hands walking alongside to push, as well.

.
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Old 11-23-2017, 08:43 AM   #1135
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Slowmover now I have a better idea why my 1960 Chrysler has an altimeter above the rearview mirror.Attachment 299663
My grandfather had a 1960 Polara. V8-383 4V. Had the altimeter on the passenger A-pillar. Compass at center. They retired to Mesa. Nothing but orange groves and cotton fields back in those good old days. The Streamline came a little later, and then it was a Dodge Police Pursuit in Monaco sheeps clothing. 10-mpg, solo or towing. US, Canada, Mexico.

Even that 375HP V8-440 used air temp control. Part of why those cars lasted twenty years versus early 1960s cars.

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Old 11-24-2017, 07:35 AM   #1136
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Originally Posted by slowmover View Post
Took a good part of my evening to read this thread. Have gone thru two other long ones last few days. My hats off to any motorhome restoration! You guys define dedicated (but born masochistic? British cars?).

A question that came up early in this thread. On using an airspeed indicator.

(Gather 'round children so Granpa doesn't lose his voice)

First saw one used in a 1950s car. And last one in a 1970s motorhome (with a real motor, a Chrysler Marine & Industrial 440-3).

An airspeed indicator is used to find both prevailing winds, and to make better ground speed calculations. Where Air Resistance is used to make engine rpm calls. And ground speed falls where it may.

As we know, air resistance starts to climb out at 60-mph. And, given local conditions, one may or may not be traveling the 58-mph the speedometer is calling out.

A strong enough tailwind, and 64-mph ground speed possible with 58-mph airspeed. Clear?

The bad days it's 52-mph GS at 66-mph airspeed.

The trick set-up was to have this line of instruments across dash top:

Air Speed Indicator
Tachometer
Engine Fuel Flow Meter
Engine Vacuum

Where the latter three were clocked to show 12-noon at 55-mph under ideal conditions. The first, 60. (Fuel Flow was 6-8/hour; Floscan)

Great for fuel economy obviously. Better for knowing when to downshift on a grade as waiting for engine rpm to drop was too slow.

Point was that one could run hard, but not strain the drivetrain. Or drive strictly for economy.

The gauge line became part of ones peripheral vision after awhile.

The other two gauges to have in the Moho of this thread are:

Engine Oil Temperature
Engine Hour Meter

As in grade ascents/descents, the coolant gauge may move rapidly. But keeping an eye on oil temp (220F about right) tells one whether the motor is genuinely getting hot. In a big truck it's what I use (with maybe a pyrometer) to determine when to downshift and/or override the mechanical fan (25-HP loss to engine).

The Engine Hour Meter -- besides service intervals -- is to calculate average mph. Trip planning (is it 40, 45 or 52-mph?). Fuel burn. Etc. Knowing averages means predictability. And predictability means longevity/reliability. Engine life is essentially X hours at Y speed. My Cummins is a 10,000-hr motor at 35-mph; the B50 life (and anything under 27-mph means operator needs to make changes; too much idle time).

I haven't seen a discussion thus far about the engine cooling fan shroud. It's vital. Blade tips should extend out about one-quarter to one-third, and tip to shroud clearance about a 1/2-inch. The rest of the back of the shroud should be closed.

A deep and full width air dam under the radiator to induce a low pressure draw.

Am I seeing that a fuel return is being used? We were doing this in the 1960s and '70's. An AFB could be modded with the return opposite the feed with two FP regulators (the trick was to vacuum-reference one of them). An electric pump and water separator was installed at the fuel tank to feed the mechanical engine mount pump. We'd also isolate the carb from the manifold a bit better than stock. Cold carb and warm manifold.

Nor have I seen anything about power steering coolers. Mandatory, IMO. Can overheat system while backing to a tight spot. Backing a trailer, even more so. In winter, to boot.

I really like the ATF cooler setup on this Argosy. Hope the sump temp proves it good.

I would also want to install filters downstream of coolers on the ATF & PSF. Engine coolant as well.

One last word is the air cleaner setup. That tight little bonnet at the fuel mixer isn't big enough. There's a reason OEM setups use a large canister. Same with Banks and others. There has to be a considerable space from which to draw. Big motor = big gulps.

Cold air draw is only good when needed. At full throttle. Otherwise, air heated to 105-115F is best for combustion pre-mix. Not to mention at start-up. Hot air draw is a sheet metal "canister" open-ended over the header tubes. Thermostatic control. Vacuum motor.

Placement of the air filter in configuration shown will alternate between hot & cold depending on air speed. If vehicle were only accelerating, it would be okay. But FE is about transitional states. Constant air temps (warm) work better. Gasoline or diesel.

I'm not trying to create more work for anyone (y'all are scary in what you're willing to do), but I am urging more investigation.

All the pics, the skill demonstrations and the lively support make these Moho threads a really great read. Thanks!

.
Interesting stuff. Today's GPS systems pretty much cover the altimeter and speed issues. Also I already have the tach and vacuum gauges in my dash. I do like the looks of analog style gauges but with the GPS's better accuracy it doesn't make sense to use the older (albeit cooler looking) stuff.

I have been toying with designs to provide fuel flow & consumption information on the dash and have one pretty well mapped out but that's going to have to be a project for later if/when I actually get the old Argosy back on the road!

Other changes such as the air filter arrangement is gonna have to stay for a while as I would really like to finish this project in my life time!

Brad
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Old 12-17-2017, 10:55 AM   #1137
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Just a minor update to what's happening with my Argosy. Prior to a couple of months ago I had never tried to install the front engine door to see how well it fit. The main reason was because I knew I was going to change how it was held in place I figured I'd wait until I was ready to tackle that particular task.

One of the things that Martin salvaged from his donor for me was the side brackets that hold the engine door in place. The early Argosies had a rinky dink way of holding the door in place that I just didn't want to use. So when he gave me the later style brackets I went ahead and installed them. Along with the brackets he gave me the engine door as well as it had the appropriate brackets that are fitted to the door. After installing the brackets I used the donor door and everything fit nicely.

For some reason I decided to see how my original engine door fit. Needless to say I was surprised to find that it was bent and twisted and didn't even come close to fitting right!

Here's a couple of pictures of my original engine door. You can't really see much in the first picture but the second picture really shows the twist.
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I think it's been stepped on a time or two which certainly didn't help. I talked to Ernie about what it would take to fix the twist and bends and he felt that it would be a real challenge to get it right again due to the type of construction.

Bottom line I'm really glad Martin gave me the one from his donor! A problem solved before I even knew I had a problem

Brad
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Old 12-17-2017, 12:44 PM   #1138
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Glad the bits helped Brad
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Old 12-27-2017, 04:11 PM   #1139
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Why settle for this......
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When you can have this....

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Old 12-27-2017, 05:56 PM   #1140
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Why settle for this......
Attachment 301517

When you can have this....

Attachment 301516

What eighties vehicle did you smurf that emblem of off? Looks GM.
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