Doin' the Full Monte

[Zeppelinium]

Originally Posted by Jim & Susan

I had read in another thread someplace that the fresh water inlets were prone to breaking up and falling apart. They're plastic and I suppose dry out, crack and break. PizzaChop had mentioned that he repaired his with fiberglass and resin, so off we go.

I think I kinda got carried away, but it should last awhile now. Still needs some cleaning up, but you get the idea.

Jim

http://www.airforums.com/forums/527992-post486.html post #486

Jim,

I've got two of these that need repair. I noticed you fiberglassed over the tube--the 1-1/2" ID hose is supposed to go over that, how'd you connect once you made the diameter bigger?

Zep

[grakkin]

Originally Posted by Jim & Susan

So, where's YOUR "Full Monte" thread?

Here is my restoration thread, It has begun...

[Jim & Susan]

Zep, short answer is that I haven't tried to put the pipe back on there yet. I tried to add a minimum amout of new stuff on the pipe neck itself. If it turns out to be much too large, then I'm hoping to sand it down or go with different sized pipe or fittings. Hopefully.....

Jim

[Chuck]

a very small amount of fiberglass makes a big difference in sound deadening. I'd be wary of going with "only" reflectix for that reason alone.
IIRC, the folks at GSM use both, and just lose the airspace on the reflectix. (doesn't make that much difference). I'd imagine there'd be less condensation to worry about that way, too.

I know a guy that used the rigid foam/foil stuff. "polyisocyanurate", I think its called. HD carries it. I think they had to score the back side of it to get it to conform to the curves, where necessary.

[Jim & Susan]

Originally Posted by Chuck

a very small amount of fiberglass makes a big difference in sound deadening. I'd be wary of going with "only" reflectix for that reason alone.
IIRC, the folks at GSM use both, and just lose the airspace on the reflectix. (doesn't make that much difference). I'd imagine there'd be less condensation to worry about that way, too.

I know a guy that used the rigid foam/foil stuff. "polyisocyanurate", I think its called. HD carries it. I think they had to score the back side of it to get it to conform to the curves, where necessary.

The rigid foam that I'm using for the "stand-off's" to create the open airspace is the same thing your talking about, I think. So, you're saying that he used it in whole sheets as the primary form of insulation?

[Jim & Susan]

Originally Posted by Chuck

......IIRC, the folks at GSM use both, and just lose the airspace on the reflectix. (doesn't make that much difference). I'd imagine there'd be less condensation to worry about that way, too.. .....

Now that you mention it, I seem to remember Rob Baker saying soemthing like that in a thread someplace. I'll have to try and contact him and see how he did it.

Jim

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by Jim & Susan

The rigid foam that I'm using for the "stand-off's" to create the open airspace is the same thing your talking about, I think. So, you're saying that he used it in whole sheets as the primary form of insulation?

yup. ONLY form, as far as I know. I've seen the trailer in various stages of restoration. Its been used at rallies as a "metal tent" by its intrepid young owner. last I saw it, the inner skins were back in, and the rest of the interior was under way, but it was still mostly a metal tent. This was cool-ish weather in early spring, and I remember that it certainly felt cozy enough inside. Other than that, I couldn't tell you about the overall performance.

Originally Posted by Jim & Susan

Now that you mention it, I seem to remember Rob Baker saying soemthing like that in a thread someplace. I'll have to try and contact him and see how he did it.

yeah, him too.

I know the concept gets talked up alot here...but it looks (to me) like an awful lot of work for "??" reward. and how do you know all that tape/glue is going to stick? inside walls that flex and bounce down the highway, etc, etc. if the cavity is "stuffed", it can't move, and you still get a big boost from the reflectix, even though it might be slighty less than "optimum".

[Zeppelinium]

Considering the interest in this thread in the foil insulation, I did a little test and posted the results here
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f46/...sts-40442.html

Not definitive, unfortunately, but perhaps interesting.

Zep

[Jim & Susan]

I read that earlier. I've got to go back a reread some stuff in several threads and elsewhere. Chuck raises soem good points, but it's been dealt with before here. Just haven't had the time over the last few days.

Basically, I decided on the foil because of the very small area that we have available to actully stuff insulation into. I'll have abetter answer in a day or two.

Jim

[malconium]

Some comments...

I am a believer in the effectiveness of foil insulation as might be observed in the various places where I have posted things about foil. I added some comments to Zeps posting about his inslulation tests too by the way. I do have some comments or observations to add regarding other types of insulation as follows.

1.) The type of rigid foam insluation that I used to cut strips out of for supporting my foil insulation is flexible enough that it easily fits the contours of the AS sides. I believe it is a styrofoam type of product but it comes with a plastic skin on both sides. When styrofoam has a non strechy skin it is easily possible to bend the foam without breaking it as long as the skin is on the outside surface of the foam when bending it.

2.) There are different levels of insulation value for different types of foam insulation. As a rough rule of thumb sytrofoam (expanded polystyrene or EPS) typically has an R value of about 4 per inch. Polyisocyanurate and polyurethane foams run more like R 7 per inch. The polyiso foam that I have seen for sale at HD seems too stiff to flex. I think that polyurethane is more flexible but I am not entirely sure. I have not actually seen any available in sheets although it seems like it should be. The only kind that I have seen is foamed in place stuff. Polyurethane and polyiso are also more expensive than eps types of foam.

3.) There also is only so much we can do with an AS and its roughly 1-1/2 of wall thickness. Sure it is better to have more insulation than less but we are still going to have to put up with a somewhat less than optimum type of wall construction from an insulation point of view.

Malcolm

[Jim & Susan]

Originally Posted by Chuck

yup. ONLY form, as far as I know. I've seen the trailer in various stages of restoration. Its been used at rallies as a "metal tent" by its intrepid young owner. last I saw it, the inner skins were back in, and the rest of the interior was under way, but it was still mostly a metal tent. This was cool-ish weather in early spring, and I remember that it certainly felt cozy enough inside. Other than that, I couldn't tell you about the overall performance.

I have a sheet of that stuff out in the garage (that’s what I’m using as backing strips to glue the Reflectix to). Aluminum on one side, foam in the middle and a plastic type skin on the other side. I cut a piece of it to fit in a small area of the wall and fiddled around with it for a while. It seems to me that if you can’t seal that stuff up properly to keep open spaces on both sides the material, it has little or no value as insulation. It would appear that the way these dense materials (Reflectix, spray foams, dense foam sheets/boards) work is to create dead air spaces on either side of the material. In other words, you have to find some way to fasten (glue) and seal (tape) the foam board in place for it to work. And then you still run the risk of it working its way lose somewhere down the road. The R-values are about the same for both products (and I’m not really convinced R-values mean a helluva lot in our metal cylinders—as opposed to say a stick built home with brick, mortar, 2x4 walls real insulation, etc).

Originally Posted by Chuck

yeah, him too.

The reason that I mentioned Rob Baker (RobandZoe) is that he and Colin Hyde, the owner of GSM, would appear to be good friends, based purely upon what I hear on www.thevap.com. I assume they trade ideas and have similar experiences with vintage trailer restorations.

As a side note, I actually got to meet Colin last year at the International in Perry. What a great guy he is. He gave Susan and I a tour of his vintage Airstream and many useful tips about painting our interior vinyl walls.

Originally Posted by Chuck

I know the concept gets talked up alot here...but it looks (to me) like an awful lot of work for "??" reward. and how do you know all that tape/glue is going to stick? inside walls that flex and bounce down the highway, etc, etc. if the cavity is "stuffed", it can't move, and you still get a big boost from the reflectix, even though it might be slighty less than "optimum".

I have no idea how long lasting the installation of this material will be. All I can say is that the glue and the tape are both really sticky. As I’ve stated here before, I’m not an engineer and I don’t play one on TV (more on that in a minute).

[Jim & Susan]

So I had a few minutes to kill this afternoon and decided to call the Reflectix Company. I bypassed the automated voice response system, went to the operator and actually got to talk to a real engineer. Get this, his name is Monte, and no, I’m not making that up. He’s a nice guy. Gave me an overview of the product and answered all my questions.

I explained to him briefly what we are trying to do with his insulation, how my camper was insulated from the factory and the space restrictions we have to deal with. Tried to cover as many things as I could think of in the ten minutes we spoke. When I told him that I was installing it in a 1 ¾ inch depth wall, center of the wall with ¾ inch open space on either side, tape the seams, etc, he said this was the “perfect” (his word) way to do it. Seems to confirm what many of us have read elsewhere. I did ask him about adding a layer of pink stuff in the shell to augment the foil. It seems the best way for us to do this is to put the Reflectix against the outer shell and the pink stuff against the inner walls. Without me prompting him, he said this probably wouldn’t add much value as insulation, but would be a good sound deadener.

So, I guess I’m sticking with foil. Now if I can just find some 1” thick pink stuff to fill the void. Thanks for planting that seed, Chuck.

Jim

[Wabbiteer]

Commercial Heating & Ventillation companies have fifty foot long 4' wide rolls of 1-inch fiberglass for duct wrapping, I spotted an almost full roll with mylar foil on one side in a dumpster but wasted most of it insulating part of a garage (pre-airstream) and used the rest wrapping our hot water heater.

Talking to the guys in the HVAC shop might be better than stopping in at front desk - there are many, many flavors of duct wrap & they might be able to tell you a jobsite that's finishing up you could collect some remains from as often they don't re-stock material back to the central warehouse...

[vhord]

Originally Posted by Jim & Susan

It seems the best way for us to do this is to put the Reflectix against the outer shell and the pink stuff against the inner walls. Without me prompting him, he said this probably wouldn’t add much value as insulation, but would be a good sound deadener.

So, I guess I’m sticking with foil. Now if I can just find some 1” thick pink stuff to fill the void. Thanks for planting that seed, Chuck.

Jim

I was hoping to avoid the pink stuff. When I removed part of the inside skin I noticed that some critters (mice I assume) had made trails through the pink stuff. It reminded me of the ant colonies we made in school between glass. I am going on the theory that "no food, no bedding, less mice".

But speaking of A/C suppliers, has anyone tried the duct board that they use? It is not a styrofoam type material and I would think it would have fairly good sound deadening qualities. You could put that against the Reflectex.

Just a thought.

[vhord]

Here is some data on the duct board:

AHS-200[1].pdf

It might be expensvie and I am not sure about it's weight. They state that 1" duct board has an R-factor of 4.3.

Hopefully someone here more informed on this than me will have some advice.

[Jim & Susan]

I thought maybe I would update a few things for those interested in the insulation stuff. We have most of the roadside complete—at least the foil part. As several folks predicted, it’s really slow going. I suspect that we have about 25 “honest” work hours in already, on that one side (honest meaning that not included in those 25 hours are things like beer runs, BBQ, admiring our work, etc). I estimate that we are about 1/3 of the way finished. The sides of the trailer seem to be the most difficult to do because there are many cuts to make to work things in properly between the ribs and stand-offs in there. The ends of the camper will probably be faster simply because there aren’t as many structural parts to work around. We have used one roll of material so far. That’s one 4’ x 25’ roll, or 100 sq. ft. There is surprisingly little waste, maybe 3 or 4 sq. ft. And we haven’t had to piece together but two small sections, so far.

Jim

[Jim & Susan]

We played around with different ways to attach the foam standoffs to the shell and came up with a couple of ideas. When we started out, everything was glued to the outer shell or as close as possible to the outer shell on the ribs. Once we actually started gluing the foil up, it became obvious that it isn’t that easy to fit things in and taping seams up properly doing it that way. We glued some of the foam strips to the ribs, etc, as far away from the outer shell as possible and then ran the foil in behind the foam, then glued and taped. Hope that makes sense. I’ll try to attach a couple of pics as a visual. The taping is really the time consuming part. Especially in hard to reach areas. I’ve had to resort to placing pink stuff behind some things and then taping over the seam in order to get a good airtight seal. Oh yeah, almost forgot. There are some areas that you simply can’t get this stuff to fit into. Too many wires and other things.

Jim

[malconium]

Jim,

If you have not tried it yet a technique that I wish I had discovered earlier in my foil insulation process was to hold a large piece of foil in place and press it tight to the ribs underneath. You can easily enough feel where the ribs are and when you press down in those areas you get marks where you can cut the foil to fit the odd shaped spaces.

Malcolm

[utee94]

Originally Posted by malconium

Jim,

If you have not tried it yet a technique that I wish I had discovered earlier in my foil insulation process was to hold a large piece of foil in place and press it tight to the ribs underneath. You can easily enough feel where the ribs are and when you press down in those areas you get marks where you can cut the foil to fit the odd shaped spaces.

Malcolm

An old carpenter's trick that I've used in the past when I needed to transfer a marking to the back of something where I can't see, is to rub chalk along the surface in the back, and then press the surface in the front onto it.

In this case, you could lightly rub the rib with some fairly brightly colored chalk and press the insulation up against it (you obviously need to hold it fairly steady). Then pull the insulation down and turn it around with the backside facing you, and the chalk line will show you where the rib was located, and therefore where you need to cut. Should work okay in this application.

[malconium]

Actually it works just fine without anything other than presure. The surface of the foil takes a nice image of the rib that you push it against.

Malcolm