How would you structure a new AS Club?

[wkerfoot]

Originally Posted by 1963tradewin

Speaking of clubs, which 1 do I need to join to get the red numbers on my unit? Thanks for the help.

Todd,

Wally Byam Caravan Club International (WBCCI) WBCCI.org

Bill

[FlashSilver]

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

Everyone seems to be having so much fun working up the details of the new club, I still have not seen an answer to my question: Why do we NEED a club? What need is not being met in the current situation? What are potential members crying out for that the new club is going to provide which they cannot get anywhere else?

I still see no reason for another club.

The answer is simple. Most of us do not want to camp with a bunch of old white people talking about the same things, telling the same old jokes, wearing silly girl scout hats and nametags, and paying a lot of hard earned money so the elite can have benefits not available to the rest of us. Has anyone here been asked to travel to Scotland all expenses paid to scout out the RV industry over there?

The internet has exposed us to a whole new free wheeling, do it yourself world that doesn't need the structure and politics of the "old" club. For those who like that kind of thing, have at it, have fun, wave at us as we go by. But if you don't like the answers you are getting, don't ask the question.

[hampstead38]

Stephanie... you enter the conversation with a particular point of view, to wit, "we don't need a new club." You have further decided that a club must be defined and meet some unmet need (which you don't acknowledge exists) for it to be sucessful (whatever that means).

With all due respect, the only decision you must make about any new club is whether or not you are inclined to join. If you don't see any need, then why not simply allow the rest of us to engage in a discussion about what that need might be and how it might be filled? Given the intelligence, insight and experience of the Airforums... I'm going to "take as read" the fact that these members have figured out what is "freely available." I also presume folks know that Airforums is not is not free because many of us contribute money.

I disagree with the notion that the universe can be divided neatly into those people who like to join clubs and the those people who sit around saying, "Well, what can you do for me." The success of Airforums is not merely that people get something out of these forums. It is that people have an opportunity to contribute something. In this world, Stephanie, there are people who don't simply think of what they have to gain... they think of what they have to offer.

This strikes to the heart of one of the problems the WBCCI faces... the perception that the international leadership is comprised of carefully selected persons who enjoy substantial benefits at the expense of rank-and-file members. Whether we're talking about a marriage, a family, a club or a business... selfishness is corrosive. This is why one of my suggestions for a mythical new club was to make a service project or "random act of kindness" part of every rally.

[Stefrobrts]

Originally Posted by hampstead38

If you don't see any need, then why not simply allow the rest of us to engage in a discussion about what that need might be and how it might be filled?

I am not in any way trying to stop discussion of a new club. I want to encourage it. I really want to challenge people to think of reasons why a new club is needed.

Over and over again I see people saying the WB is not for them because they are not getting anything out of it for the money they put into it. That's why I maintain that any new club will need some sort of reason for being that makes people want to be a part of it.

A club focused on charitable works, or on people gathering to see how their talents can be used for greater good? Great, why not? That's a wonderful idea.

[wheel interested]

Originally Posted by PeeWee

When given an opportunity to be creative and constructive, the same old purveyors of cliches, and trite continue on.

I gotta be so dense. Splain it to me please. Peewee could you be specific when you make your broader statements against unnamed individuals? I think it is only fitting if you are going to make negative comments that you direct them so they can be challenged.

[Gene]

The idea, as I see it, is not a club, but clubs, groups, gatherings and so on. Some would be a one time rally, others more things. If some people want a better WBCCI, but not called the WBCCI, fine; others will want somewhat smaller and less organized groups.

The potential is limitless.

How it functions is determined by the personalities of its members and their group dynamic. It may not have "members". It doesn't have to have membership cards. But it can—that's up to the group to determine.

Here's how I think it will develop. Someone will get tired of reading this thread and find out how to get a page on the Forum. They'll come up with a name and some sort of affinity standard. For ex.: "I want to get together with Airstreamers from the Colorado Plateau and have a rally in southern Utah somewhere. We can form a group and discuss how to do that at a rally. I guess it could include Forum members from a larger area, let's see how it works. One rule—no dogs weighing less than 15 pounds because their barks are so high pitched they drive me nuts. How does the weekend of April 15th sound?" Note: this is an example, not me organizing this. It's that simple to start something.

But it could be any sort of affinity group—geographical, vintage, A/S MoHo's, or people getting friends together (friends locally, friends from the Forum) and inviting others to join them at a rally, a meeting, something.

Insurance is an issue. Waivers don't always work. I think the solution would be for the Forum to cover this. A larger organization can get better rates than a small one with no track record. Liability and D&O (directors and officers) can protect. But insurance companies do not like amorphous organizations without officers and directors—it's too new and different for their small minds, so I think there are some hurdles involved. Insurance means dues, though they can be modest if enough people are involved. I hope Andy is thinking about this.

Gene

[norsea]

Another thing I would like to see in a new club is pro rated dues.

Dues should be assessed to cover the time of the fiscal year that the member(s) is/are in the club.

It has never made any sense to me when I see organizations charging new members the same amount of money for (pick a number), one month, six months, etc., as someone who is a member for the entire 12 months of the year.

Jim

[Gene]

It's easy to have dues come due on the anniversary date of joining, especially with computers. If you are still in the Dark Ages, it may be insurmountable. Colorado State Parks just figured out how to do that when you get an annual pass.

Gene

[hampstead38]

First, Stephanie, I respectfully disagree. I don't see people complaining about getting financially shortchanged by the WBCCI. I see former members and potential members frustrated by a calcified organization. It's not the money; it's the resistance to change. To borrow a quote from the mythical Terrance Mann, "it's money we have, and peace we lack."

As for "challenging people to think," that puts you in the position of facilitating the discussion rather than participating in it. While I understand the intent, I think the conversation is best served by allowing people to challenge themselves.

Ah, and let's not forget PeeWee. PeeWee supports the WBCCI extant. He also speaks in the language of faith, of certainty and of religion. It's something I've developed an ear for over the years. I've learned--from hard experience--that for a true believer in any cause (particularly professional football teams), there is no conversation; only degrees of proselytizing and condemnation. I've found discussion with my fellow heretics far more enjoyable.

[norsea]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

It's easy to have dues come due on the anniversary date of joining, especially with computers. If you are still in the Dark Ages, it may be insurmountable. Colorado State Parks just figured out how to do that when you get an annual pass.

Gene

I admit that I am not the sharpest tack in the pack but I do not understand what the anniversary date for joining has to do with paying dues for new members beyond the initial payment for the period of time remaining in the current fiscal year of the organization.

The only time pro rating dues comes into play is the first year someone joins an organization.

The assumption is that dues for the year are due at the first of the fiscal year for the organization. Everyone who is a member at that time pays at that time for the entire upcoming year.

For those who join during later months in the year a lesser amount is charged based on the number of months remaining in the fiscal year.

At the start of the next fiscal year these folks now pay the full amount for the coming year, just like everyone else.

I sure do not see this as anything complicated. Seems like very simple and fair math to me.

Jim

[pmclemore]

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

I That's why I maintain that any new club will need some sort of reason for being that makes people want to be a part of it.

Stephanie has gotten to the core of the issue.

Pat

[azflycaster]

I would like to clear up any misconception of the dues for the WBCCI. Yes, the dues are paid for a calender year. However, if a member joins after the 1st of July, their membership is good untill the end of the next year.

[Gene]

Jim, pro rating is one way of dealing with dues inequity. Another is maintaining an anniversary date based on when one joins. The advantages of the latter method is that the organization always receives the same amount so long the amount of annual dues does not change, membership renewal forms do not have to be sent all at once (quite a burden on volunteers or employees), and the organization receives income steadily through the year. If the organization gets it all at once, it may overspend because it's got it all at once assuming it's not already running deficits.

Gene

[norsea]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

Jim, pro rating is one way of dealing with dues inequity. Another is maintaining an anniversary date based on when one joins. The advantages of the latter method is that the organization always receives the same amount so long the amount of annual dues does not change, membership renewal forms do not have to be sent all at once (quite a burden on volunteers or employees), and the organization receives income steadily through the year. If the organization gets it all at once, it may overspend because it's got it all at once assuming it's not already running deficits.

Gene

Gene,

I'm not trying to be contentious but forward thinking.

In your previous post you implied that a computer system was needed to do the tracking of the data. Pro rated dues eliminates that as an issue as well as the need for people to do the task.

Given that many of the responses to this post suggest/imply that any new club should make very good use of the internet and web technology I don't see an issue with sending email to all of the members, in addition to a "blerb" (technical term) on the home page of the organization's web site when it is, "that time of year".

Surely this would not be an imposition on volunteers. One of the benefits of using the internet and computers is using software to automate as many things as possible; annual mass email being one of these.

Personally I do not see the need for an office staff (employees) at all, unless the members should decide that they need something like that. But the volume of members to support such a structure would be huge I would think. And, dues would definitely reflect the cost of something like this. Without an office staff dues can be minimized.

And, this does raise the issue of where the organization is "officially" located as far as the federal and state governments are concerned. Some states require a physical office space (Ohio, for example). Others do not have such a requirement and a PO Box will suffice (Delaware, for example).

Any new organization, here in the 21st century, really needs to focus its member communications by way of electronic media, IMNSHO. The days of having to spend money on physical paper are long gone; the same for the postage expense that goes with mailing and editing and publishing. Making good use of the internet really can reduce expenses significantly. Members can read things on line or, at their individual option, download and print it if that is what they prefer. This way the organization does not have to front the expense OR the collection of monies to pay for such things.

And, annual dues do change; for lots of different reasons. Why would one want to create a system that would have impacts if the dues structure should change when it is pretty much a given that the dues structure will change in the future?

As for the income, it is steady at that which is collected at the time dues are due at the start of the fiscal year and this is all that can be used to forecast the annual budget. Any incremental income due to new members would not be, in my mind, significant enough that I would be willing to use them for a prediction for budgetary purposes.

Any organization that cannot create a basic budget forecast at the start of its annual year based on its fixed income is doomed to failure. And if it can do such a forecast and it cannot operate within its budget it deserves to fail for plain ordinary incompetence IMNSHO.

Jim

[LI Pets]

Originally Posted by norsea

Gene,


Given that many of the responses to this post suggest/imply that any new club should make very good use of the internet and web technology I don't see an issue with sending email to all of the members, in addition to a "blerb" (technical term) on the home page of the organization's web site when it is, "that time of year".

Surely this would not be an imposition on volunteers. One of the benefits of using the internet and computers is using software to automate as many things as possible; annual mass email being one of these.

Personally I do not see the need for an office staff (employees) at all, unless the members should decide that they need something like that. But the volume of members to support such a structure would be huge I would think. And, dues would definitely reflect the cost of something like this. Without an office staff dues can be minimized.

And, this does raise the issue of where the organization is "officially" located as far as the federal and state governments are concerned. Some states require a physical office space (Ohio, for example). Others do not have such a requirement and a PO Box will suffice (Delaware, for example).

Any new organization, here in the 21st century, really needs to focus its member communications by way of electronic media, IMNSHO. The days of having to spend money on physical paper are long gone; the same for the postage expense that goes with mailing and editing and publishing. Making good use of the internet really can reduce expenses significantly. Members can read things on line or, at their individual option, download and print it if that is what they prefer. This way the organization does not have to front the expense OR the collection of monies to pay for such things.

As for the income, it is steady at that which is collected at the time dues are due at the start of the fiscal year and this is all that can be used to forecast the annual budget. Any incremental income due to new members would not be, in my mind, significant enough that I would be willing to use them for a prediction for budgetary purposes.

Any organization that cannot create a basic budget forecast at the start of its annual year based on its fixed income is doomed to failure. And if it can do such a forecast and it cannot operate within its budget it deserves to fail for plain ordinary incompetence IMNSHO.

Jim

I never thought I would agree with you Jim

I agree

[Stefrobrts]

Originally Posted by hampstead38

As for "challenging people to think," that puts you in the position of facilitating the discussion rather than participating in it. While I understand the intent, I think the conversation is best served by allowing people to challenge themselves.

I was trying to participate by asking people what they thought a new club was needed for. I was genuinely interested in finding out and discussing it. My mistake, I was still at the 'why do we need another club phase'. Obviously there are people who feel a new club is needed and are concerned now with how to manage it. I will leave you to it. Obviously this is not for me.

[Gene]

You don't need a computer to keep track of membership and dues, but it's easier. You usually start with index cards (do they still make them? Probably). There are computer programs to manage data bases and send e-mails at any period you choose—monthly, quarterly, annually. If money comes in monthly, you can manage income more easily and track it better. You can watch income more closely.

For a small group, such things are not worth worrying about. For a large one, yes. A small group putting out notice of a rally, will not have to set up a data base unless someone in the group knows how and wants to.

I only raised the dues issue because of insurance question. Insurance companies have the effect of driving an informal group towards conventional structure.

Gene

[gail]

Why does a small group need ins. if you are so worried have people sign a disclaimer, like some Dr's do ,that you can not sue.

[Gene]

Stef, I think there are many reasons posted people want new groups, many of them very different from others, and I think those reasons have been stated on this thread and many others.

There are a few general ones—the anti-WBCCI reason, the better WBCCI, or a small informal group to just get together and have fun seem to be the most common. Or maybe it's as simple as people like to get together and talk, eat, play. I think it was Hampstead who said we are tribal species and we need to spend some tribe time. I agree. The Airstream Tribe has subgroups and they are looking for something different than what they have.

The virtual club, the Forum, is not quite enough, but it can facilitate the bringing together of people in person. The WBCCI does not meet the needs of many people. What a new group is needed for is getting together, and just how it looks will be self defining.

Gene

[norsea]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

You don't need a computer to keep track of membership and dues, but it's easier. You usually start with index cards (do they still make them? Probably). There are computer programs to manage data bases and send e-mails at any period you choose—monthly, quarterly, annually. If money comes in monthly, you can manage income more easily and track it better. You can watch income more closely.

For a small group, such things are not worth worrying about. For a large one, yes. A small group putting out notice of a rally, will not have to set up a data base unless someone in the group knows how and wants to.

I only raised the dues issue because of insurance question. Insurance companies have the effect of driving an informal group towards conventional structure.

Gene

I agree about the "need" for conventional structure.

I know there are many who do not think that "structure" of any sort is necessary.

I am not one of them.

I have been involved in too many disparate organizations in my years on this here rock and have learned the hard way that operating any sort of organization requires structure.

Even here on the forums there is structure; alas, the vast majority of it goes unseen (as it should) by the users. This forum is a business and Andy R is required by law to file income taxes, deal with the cost of software, upgrades for the software, the cost of computer time for the forum to operate, etc., etc. I suspect that he also has some sort of liability insurance.

What most people are either not aware of or not willing to accept is that anyone can sue anyone else in this country. And, if you are named in a law suit and choose not to defend yourself many courts will rule in favor of the other party by default.

What this really means is that you will need to spend money for legal assistance to defend yourself even if it is obvious that the other party has no standing. Having insurance is one way to defray the cost of such an event.

And, if anyone thinks that the requirements that the insurance companies want before they will provide coverage is a bit much then look at what each of the states as well as the feds require for structure if you want your organization to be considered a not for profit corporation so that you can reduce the tax burden on the group.

While all of this sounds like something that is insurmountable it is not. And, it is really very easy to establish an organizational structure that will "please" these disparate groups requirements.

While all of this should be discussed should this conversation reach such a point of actually moving forward with the formation of a new organization it is a bit premature at this point from my point of view.

We now return you to yet more opportunities for people to provide information related to Fred's original request, "... how they would structure a new Airstream Club that will work and prosper in the future".

Jim