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Old 06-30-2020, 06:45 PM   #21
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I work in a grocery store in my retirement job and I do a lot of tank exchanges. I typically inform the customers that they would be better off buying their own tank and filling, especially at a provider that charges by the gallon. I also point out to the that the 20 lb tanks we sell are only filled to 15 lbs. Cost is $19.99-$21.00 for 20# tank exchanges in the St. Louis metro area. The other rip off is the places that charge you by weight. Unless your tank is empty, you are paying again for any propane left in your tank.

Jack
You might be working in a retirement job but youíre not working for the guy whoís paying your wages.

Who is playing rip-off artist more...? The employer who pays the employeeís wages to sell his products...? Or the employee who disenchants his customers?

Itís fair to describe the product accurately, ... But itís not a rip-off if itís properly labelled as they usually are. ...itís convenient and more readily available, not to mention that if YOUR tank inspection is EXPIRED...itís a quick-exchange for a currently-inspected one at a fair price.

If you donít feel honorable in your work do not harm your employer...THAT is dishonest. Find new work.

OK... I went overboard... sorry... stepping back off the soapbox... Iím actually a Union man and I give him what he pays me for.
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Old 07-01-2020, 10:09 AM   #22
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Can I take my 'exchange' cylinder and have it filled at CW?

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Old 07-01-2020, 11:35 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Boxite View Post
You might be working in a retirement job but youíre not working for the guy whoís paying your wages.

Who is playing rip-off artist more...? The employer who pays the employeeís wages to sell his products...? Or the employee who disenchants his customers?

Itís fair to describe the product accurately, ... But itís not a rip-off if itís properly labelled as they usually are. ...itís convenient and more readily available, not to mention that if YOUR tank inspection is EXPIRED...itís a quick-exchange for a currently-inspected one at a fair price.

If you donít feel honorable in your work do not harm your employer...THAT is dishonest. Find new work.

OK... I went overboard... sorry... stepping back off the soapbox... Iím actually a Union man and I give him what he pays me for.

The rip off are the folks who charge you for a full tank even though your tank isnít empty. As far as the store goes the tank fill weight is not labeled nor are there any disclosures regarding that the tank is carrying less than 20 lbs of propane.

The fact is that customers have asked me why the tank didnít last as long have no idea that the tank is 25% short of its stated capacity. Yes there is a price to pay for the convenience of that tank exchange but we pride ourselves on our customer service and transparency regarding the products we sell. I also point out to the customers the benefits of not having to refill a tank or having to certify the tank as it ages, and not having to have a refiller charge them full price for a partial tank refill.

Itís up to the customer who they buy from, and customer service and honesty regarding what we sell brings customers back. I donít consider Iím harming my employer but instead am creating a trust bond with that person. Iím union too in my job, and if we end up losing the sale of a bottle of propane, that customer still comes back to us for a lot of other products because they respect our honesty and service. And you can bet that if that customer asks me to carry that full bottle back to their car, I will do that for them.

I do remind them that there is a service level difference in purchasing from us than the neighboring WalMart. They recognize that aspect and they never fail to tell us that itís the reason they shop with us. Iíve worked at that store and chain for over 7 years and have never been taken to task for my actions. I train new employees as one of my jobs, and I drill customer service into the head if everyone I train.

Jack
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:05 PM   #24
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I guess I am getting a bit confused by the "tank is full or 75% full" comments? Different "filling stations" while traveling, typically use a scale to weigh my tank before fill, and then weigh again, when "full", charging me the difference. They also charge me by the "gal" on their gauge, which typically is what I pay. Pound or gallon, end result is same; full tank (or at least 75-80% full, depending on "laws" of their establishment, and of course, $$ to the proprietors...some stations require inspection of the tank to be currant and some places don't even look. I always carry a 20# portable bottle for my propane firepit and O-Grill, which I also use for my generator sometimes....I have exchanged an "out of date" empty cylinder at Home Depot recently, for $22, I believe...I did not find that unreasonable...although, how much propane (actual) was in the "exchange tank", is difficult to get an accurate reading...propane in most tanks, is very difficult to know how much you have without the warm water trick..I did see a nice tank gauge at the local propane company in Helena MT when i filled up a few weeks ago...requires removing the valve however, so totally empty tank, or buy a new one from them...think the gauge was $35-40 or so...not practical for a 20# bottle perhaps...but maybe on the 30# or larger.. Those gauge only devices work on pressure, and are not accurate is what I was told...perhaps someone here has better solution or input?
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:25 PM   #25
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Ok. Propane bottles are filled typically to 80% of their physical capacity. That allows space for the liquid to turn to gas and to handle temperature variances.

A 20 lb tank filled to 80% of its physical capacity is considered 100% full. The gallons of liquid propane in that tank is approximately 4.7 gallons.

In my example at the grocery store we are exchanging 20 lb tanks. Those exchange tanks only have 15 lbs of propane in them. The liquid propane in that tank is about 3.56 gallons. Hence that tank is filled with 25% less propane than typically would be filled with the tank being considered full.

Hope this clarifies.

Jack
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:33 PM   #26
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Also the bottles do differ in their weight based on the bottle construction and materials. The bottle has stamped on its collar the tare weight. The tare weight is the physical weight of the bottle minus the propane content. Some fillers take the tare weight add 20 lbs and set their scale to determine what that bottle should weight when the bottle has 20 gallons of propane in them. I have seen fillers who fail to adjust their scales for the tare weight and technically overfill the bottle. I once had an overfilled bottle start venting propane on a hot day, because the filler put in too much propane.

There is an 80% screw on the valve assembly that should be opened as the bottle is being filled. When the vapor exhausting turns to liquid, the bottle is filled to the 80% level. That's the most accurate way to fill a bottle. Some fillers do both. Keep in mind that the aluminum Airstream tank weighs less than a standard steel bottle and I always watch the filler make sure he adjusts the tare weight on his scale and/or uses the 80% valve when filling. You can easily overfill an aluminum bottle if you don't adjust for the lighter tare weight of the bottle.

Just to add because of the overfill potential, the regs were change over 20 years ago so that all new tanks have POL valves on them. The POL valves have at least 3 improvements. One is the connector knobs allowing you to connect that tank to a hose without having to use a wrench to tighten it. Secondly the new valves have an 80% shut off limit so that when the tank hits 80% full, the tank will accept no more liquid propane. Finally they new valves can detect a sudden rush of gas leaving the tank (say a broken hose) and will cut off the propane supply.

I've seen distracted folks fill a tank and the tank itself will cut off the fill because the attendant wasn't watching the fill carefully.


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Old 07-01-2020, 01:09 PM   #27
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Smooth out the running

You know, I read in the LP conversion manual that you can tune the amount of gas and air a bit. This might help some. It is the large screw in the back of the regulator that controls the mix. This photo may help you.


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Old 07-01-2020, 01:13 PM   #28
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Ed, Thank You the very helpful post and image. Glad I was not over-thinking it to go with 3/8" hose and fittings. Eager to try the genset on AS house gas.
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Old 07-01-2020, 02:37 PM   #29
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How much fuel would a propane converted Honda EU2200 use

Dave, you are not overthinking the setup. You just made sure enough gas can flow so the generator wonít have fuel starvation under a heavy load.

I went with 3/8 quick connections with a shutoff valve so I can safely shut down the generator and use long 1/2 id hoses.

Two lengths of 12 foot hose and my front power port let me get the 3400 Champion dual fuel inverter generator up to 20 feet away from us when conditions permit. I usually run the generator in the bed of the Tacoma or on the tailgate, always chained down.

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Quick connect with individual shutoff 1/4 turn shutoff valve. The champion wonít simply shut off with its power switch running on propane. Safety feature so disconnecting wonít spray propane vapor everywhere. Any quick connect should have a shutoff valve behind it for safety if an o-ring goes bad internally.

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1/4 turn Shutoff valve for everything after the requlator for quick action in case of a fire. The tank cover takes too much fumbling in an emergency.
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Old 07-01-2020, 06:04 PM   #30
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Can I take my 'exchange' cylinder and have it filled at CW?

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Yes, absolutely!

I've told several people and some stated in this thread, it's a good idea to exchange your near outdated (or outdated) cylinder for a "newer" cylinder then keep refilling it till it's time to exchange again.
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Old 07-02-2020, 07:13 AM   #31
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To: Rich in Overkill Engineering
From: Dave in Dept of Overthinking

"two lengths of 12 fot 1/2" id hose."

Hmmm.... Is the concern about CO gas getting in the AS? Fire isolation?

I have bought a ten-footer from Hutch Mountain. I like the idea of chained to the truck. Had intended to chain to the A-frame somewhere. Is this a chance forme to overthink some more?!

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Old 07-02-2020, 07:35 AM   #32
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How much fuel would a propane converted Honda EU2200 use

No, itís just about generator noise mitigation. The ability to get it far away when desired is why I built two hose assemblies to give the ability to get it far away. I carry a 30-amp RV extension cord for the same reason.

I have only run the generator on the tailgate or chained to the A-frame. There was a lot of stuff in the truck bed and the Airstream was full of dogs. So that time I chained it to the a-frame for security.

If I need relative quiet I can move the generator fairly far away. In reality, you canít hear the generator inside the Airstream over the air conditioning noise. Heck, itís quiet enough that itís not that loud over the air conditioning noise outside.

As far as exhaust fumes, I make sure the generator exhaust is aimed so the wind carries it away, there is a carbon monoxide detector inside the Airstream that works, and we use the generator only if we need air conditioning. Battery charging is handled well by our solar panel and controller.

I like options, and extra hose and cable makes it easy. Adding a front generator port and manual transfer switch is just more options.
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Old 07-02-2020, 07:45 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidwantz View Post
You know, I read in the LP conversion manual that you can tune the amount of gas and air a bit. This might help some. It is the large screw in the back of the regulator that controls the mix. This photo may help you.


Dave
Yep the Motor Snorkel conversion for my Yamaha generator has included an adjustment screw and an engine tach that allows me to fine tune the propane or natural gas mixture to produce the cleanest and best engine run speeds. Once set that you only change it if you changing between natural gas or propane. No adjustments necessary for gasoline. Pretty easy.

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Old 07-05-2020, 11:20 AM   #34
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Test: LP vs Gasoline On Honda EU2200i under a/c load

Just tested yesterday. 15000 BTU Dometic A/C modified with MicroAir circuit. Newer EU2200i modified to run LPG. A/C started and ran fine on either fuel. It was able to support a 110VAC wall fan at the same time, but not the Dometic frig. So itís close. Rough comparison: 30 gal LPG tank drains in about 8 hours. 1 gal gas runs about 4.5-5 hrs. This is under continuous A/C compressor load. Your mileage may vary.
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Old 07-05-2020, 11:42 AM   #35
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Just tested yesterday. 15000 BTU Dometic A/C modified with MicroAir circuit. Newer EU2200i modified to run LPG. A/C started and ran fine on either fuel. It was able to support a 110VAC wall fan at the same time, but not the Dometic frig. So it’s close. Rough comparison: 30 gal LPG tank drains in about 8 hours. 1 gal gas runs about 4.5-5 hrs. This is under continuous A/C compressor load. Your mileage may vary.


So . . . rounding things off a bit . . . 2 gallons of gas will do the same work as a 30-gallon LPG tank, in order to run the A/C for about 8 hours?

This seems off IMO.

Are you sure the LPG tank was full at the start?



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Old 07-05-2020, 03:47 PM   #36
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Yamahas use about 1/2 gah running a half load of 1,500 watts or so.
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Old 07-06-2020, 02:03 PM   #37
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Just tested yesterday. 15000 BTU Dometic A/C modified with MicroAir circuit. Newer EU2200i modified to run LPG. A/C started and ran fine on either fuel. It was able to support a 110VAC wall fan at the same time, but not the Dometic frig. So it’s close. Rough comparison: 30 gal LPG tank drains in about 8 hours. 1 gal gas runs about 4.5-5 hrs. This is under continuous A/C compressor load. Your mileage may vary.
Is that really a 30 gallon/128 pound LPG tank?
My guess is 30 POUND LPG tank, at least if it was on a trailer.
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Old 07-06-2020, 02:31 PM   #38
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Ed, Thank You the very helpful post and image. Glad I was not over-thinking it to go with 3/8" hose and fittings. Eager to try the genset on AS house gas.
Dave
Dave, Your welcome.
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Old 07-07-2020, 06:54 AM   #39
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Good catch. 30lb. NOT gal.
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Old 07-07-2020, 06:56 AM   #40
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Make that 30 LB. Not 30 GAL!
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