Why did you leave WBCCI

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by Lily&Me

”At the Intl. Rally in Salem, I took the Caravan Leaders course. I offered two proposed Caravans. The 1st, a short Rally to Mexico. 9 days, which is what the “Caravan Boss” said he was pushing for. He authorized the scouting trip, for which I spent over $500 of my own money.”

”There are two reasons why this carivan was not approved - the primary reason was it did not meet the criteria of a caravan - to be a wbcci caravan it must meet certain criteria - including a certain number of nights and a certain number of stopovers - this caravan did not meet that criteria - it was an event planned to travel a certain number of miles and a certain number of nights in one place - the second reason is several years ago the WBCCI banned travel into Mexico for some obvious reasons - hope this helps to clear this up a bit“

If caravan travel to Mexico has been banned for the last few years, it is puzzling that the “scouting trip” was authorized by the WBCCI “Caravan Boss”.

Exceptions to formal “caravan criteria” could surely be authorized and made.

I hope the WBCCI considers reimbursing BoeingJet for his out of pocket expenses and any lost reimbursement he will incur for reservations that have already been made.

It would be the right thing to do.

Maggie

Well - we only have one side of the story (not casting any doubt on you, BoeingJet - but it’s not uncommon for 2 people to be in 1 conversation and have 3 different opinions about what happened...).

But it’s like going to a dealer to buy your AS and being sold a million things not authorized by the factory - you have to know the ultimate decision makers and authorities before accepting anyone’s word as final...

Maybe Boeing offered to pay the scouting fee personally hoping to ultimately convince the Caravan leader that this will be a good and safe enough trip to overcome the Club’s restriction? Maybe the Caravan leader did or didn’t disclose the insurance issue behind the restriction when indicating this is what he was “pushing for” according to Boeing - each of those actions would have different consequences on whether Boeing should be reimbursed. Maybe both thought a scouting trip report would earn an exemption and with that hope, Boeing spent the cash to get it done. Maybe the Caravan Leader withheld information Boeing should have had before making the scouting trip? It’s nearly impossible to judge a situation effectively with only one side of the story...

At the end of the day - if WBAC (formerly WBCCI) doesn’t sponsor trips to Mexico, it is what it is. Boeing has a plan for a private Caravan there and if folks are interested in joining along, they know who to contact.

[Lily&Me]

Originally Posted by Ken J

There are two reasons why this carivan was not approved - the primary reason was it did not meet the criteria of a caravan - to be a wbcci caravan it must meet certain criteria - including a certain number of nights and a certain number of stopovers - this caravan did not meet that criteria - it was an event planned to travel a certain number of miles and a certain number of nights in one place - the second reason is several years ago the WBCCI banned travel into Mexico for some obvious reasons - hope this helps to clear this up a bit

My second quote, above, is from KenJ, apparently speaking and responding to the issue posted her for the WBCCI.

Insurance is one thing, number of days and stops is another, in terms of “caravan criteria”...the latter being conducive to an exception, perhaps.

If the scouting expedition into a caravan in Mexico was actually and erroneously pre-approved, then it would seem reimbursement to BoeingJet for personal expenses should be considered...KenJ didn’t respond to nor dispute that piece.

Maggie

[BoeingJet]

R11 Officers were somehow not given, or misunderstood the proposed activity.
The National “caravan boss” decided that it was NOT a caravan, but supported it as a National Special Event, his words. How it got turned down because of miscommunication is a mystery. Communication skills can make the difference between success or failure. I hope this explanation clears up any speculation about this matter. BTW; National approved the Insurance coverage and does allow Caravans etc. to Mexico.
It’s interesting that Fantacy RV Tours can do the same event, just like my event, but I can’t get approval from anyone to do the same thing. My original point was that WBCCI needs to have more “vision” if it hopes to expand the number of “Caravans/Tours” going forward.

[BoeingJet]

1) Insurance was approved by National.
2) Scouting trip approved in an email.
3) R11 disapproval was based on tax issues/mistaken Caravan label/R11 unable to manage the event

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by BoeingJet

R11 Officers were somehow not given, or misunderstood the proposed activity.

The National “caravan boss” decided that it was NOT a caravan, but supported it as a National Special Event, his words. How it got turned down because of miscommunication is a mystery. Communication skills can make the difference between success or failure. I hope this explanation clears up any speculation about this matter. BTW; National approved the Insurance coverage and does allow Caravans etc. to Mexico.

It’s interesting that Fantacy RV Tours can do the same event, just like my event, but I can’t get approval from anyone to do the same thing. My original point was that WBCCI needs to have more “vision” if it hopes to expand the number of “Caravans/Tours” going forward.

I don’t know the full story here - none of us do. So I’m not speculating - just suggesting it’s impossible to know the full story without being on both sides of the table. I don’t even know what a National Special Event is and how that relates to their liability. And there’s other factors that impact a business decision....for example:

I don’t know who Fantacy RV Tours is but sticking with WBCCI/WBAC for a moment - their site suggests some 8000 members. What if a liability policy to officially sponsor caravans in to US Government declared “unsafe” zones cost $1M or more in premiums annually (the US is a highly litigious society - imagine the worst case scenario and the lawsuits that would come from that....you’re not going to get liability coverage on that kind of exposure for $10K/yr....). Passing that cost on to members would be another $125/each (or cut it in half - it’s still not something people would sign up for...). Not a tenable business plan. Fantacy may have deeper pockets, more members, self-insure, charge an extra insurance fee only to active participants, have a carrier reinsurance treaty, have air-tight waivers - just too many x-factors to understand the differences in this forum.

You are spot on in your assessment that communication skills can influence success or failure. Clearly - there was a disconnect - no true “meeting of the minds” on this issue and I don’t blame you for being disappointed at the mix-up. I also applaud you for continuing on your path to offer to lead the caravan yourself without the group’s sponsorship. Your assessment of the area sounds great. However, even if you’re 100% right about the safety of the area and trip, I would offer that it wouldn’t hurt for you to consult with a good attorney in advance and get assistance with an air-tight waiver from participants that indemnifies you and holds you harmless from any non-positive events (from blowouts to breakdowns to medical emergencies to crime to weather, etc. etc.).

Again - sadly - the US is a very litigious society...frequency of an issue could be very low - but depending on severity, there’s a tendency to go for the jugular sad to say....and I’m not sure how international travel affects this process....

That may sound more wet blanket than intended - just offering a perspective for your consideration now that you’ve moved on from a club-sponsored event.

Good luck and happy/safe camping!

[StingrayL82]

I joined in 2005, after our '71 Sovereign was finished by the "restoration expert" in New Jersey. We were the youngest people in the chapter. The April 2006 Cherry Blossom Rally was miserable, as it rained the entire time and many of us ended up stuck in the mud...we were in the middle of a farm field.


In the summer of 2006 I had orders to attend school at Fort Huachuca, AZ, so the family packed up the Sovereign and we took a month of leave and traveled to the Pacific Northwest and worked our way south to Arizona. We stopped in Salem, Oregon to see the WBCCI International Rally....this was at the time when the good idea fairy decided to change the club's name. I have never seen such animus, chaos, and old fuddy duddies acting like they were still Colonels in the military. It was at that moment that we decided that we wanted nothing more to do with the WBCCI.


In 2010 we sold our Sovereign, so rejoining the WBCCI became a moot point.

[blkmagikca]

My previous posting dealing with this topic was http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...ml#post2017240 - Nothing regarding the Ontario UNit has changed.

Frank C, who dragged me down to WBCCI HQ plainly stated that the old unit was toxic, and to look into joining another unit. Jim Cocke, basically said the same thing, telling me he tried to get the issue resolved (it seems the WBCCI has some bizarre rules and procedures that make Kafka look simple). About this time a couple of AS friends along with another good friend in a SOB moho went on a 3-month tour of the Baja Penninsula. The non-AS friend decided to sell her moho and she bought a 32-foot AS Classic. I could have easily talked her out of joining the WBCCI, but didn't.

I did not want to deprive a friend of the possible enjoyment of a caravan or rally, particularly after she had thoroughly enjoyed the 3-month caravan to Mexico. Instead, I rejoined the WBCCI (getting a new number) and the AZ Unit as did my friend.

[Protagonist]

I have recently decided to leave WBCCI/WBAC, and will not miss it in the slightest.



At the last Unit luncheon I attended, one of the Unit members publicly— and completely— humiliated my partner, such that she dashed out of the restaurant in tears, and he humiliated her for no reason other than spite. My demand for an apology fell on deaf ears, and not only did the offender not apologize publicly or privately, but several other members laughed about the incident as if it was fine entertainment and not the bullying that it really was. Since then, I have not had any contact whatsoever with anyone associated with WBCCI/WBAC, in that Unit or any other.


Besides, I find that I like solo outings better than rallies anyway. No one to tell me where I have to be or what I have to be doing at any given time, just me doing what I want when I want. It's much more relaxing than the regimented format of a WBCCI rally.



I'll still attend Canopener 2019 since I signed up for it back in February, but that may very well be my last rally ever.

[Lily&Me]

How sad, Protg, and I’m sorry your sweetie had to go thru that.

How they treated her is a reflection on them, not on her.

Maggie

[SteveSueMac]

Good Lord, Protagonist! There’s archaic club rules, and then there’s just some human beings who should keep their mouths shut. I’m sorry for you and your partner having to put up with such crappy human behavior. Enough of that already! What ever happened to treating people the way you want to be treated - and - if you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything?

Ugh. We need to be more like our dogs....

[BoeingJet]

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

I don’t know the full story here - none of us do. So I’m not speculating - just suggesting it’s impossible to know the full story without being on both sides of the table. I don’t even know what a National Special Event is and how that relates to their liability. And there’s other factors that impact a business decision....for example:

I don’t know who Fantacy RV Tours is but sticking with WBCCI/WBAC for a moment - their site suggests some 8000 members. What if a liability policy to officially sponsor caravans in to US Government declared “unsafe” zones cost $1M or more in premiums annually (the US is a highly litigious society - imagine the worst case scenario and the lawsuits that would come from that....you’re not going to get liability coverage on that kind of exposure for $10K/yr....). Passing that cost on to members would be another $125/each (or cut it in half - it’s still not something people would sign up for...). Not a tenable business plan. Fantacy may have deeper pockets, more members, self-insure, charge an extra insurance fee only to active participants, have a carrier reinsurance treaty, have air-tight waivers - just too many x-factors to understand the differences in this forum.

You are spot on in your assessment that communication skills can influence success or failure. Clearly - there was a disconnect - no true “meeting of the minds” on this issue and I don’t blame you for being disappointed at the mix-up. I also applaud you for continuing on your path to offer to lead the caravan yourself without the group’s sponsorship. Your assessment of the area sounds great. However, even if you’re 100% right about the safety of the area and trip, I would offer that it wouldn’t hurt for you to consult with a good attorney in advance and get assistance with an air-tight waiver from participants that indemnifies you and holds you harmless from any non-positive events (from blowouts to breakdowns to medical emergencies to crime to weather, etc. etc.).

Again - sadly - the US is a very litigious society...frequency of an issue could be very low - but depending on severity, there’s a tendency to go for the jugular sad to say....and I’m not sure how international travel affects this process....

That may sound more wet blanket than intended - just offering a perspective for your consideration now that you’ve moved on from a club-sponsored event.

Good luck and happy/safe camping!

National said the Underwriters approve and treat Mexico the same as Canada. They must have the actuarial numbers to support their conclusion. As to all the supposed liabilities that you have thrown out; that is your East Coast experience showing. Must be why you need a lawyer to write a real estate contract. Out west we don’t.
Each individual’s auto insurance covers them. The additional liability insurance required by Mexico, covers many more items, including medical & medivac coverage. I can’t help think what Wally Byram would have thought about all of this.

[xrvr]

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

Good Lord, Protagonist! There’s archaic club rules, and then there’s just some human beings who should keep their mouths shut. I’m sorry for you and your partner having to put up with such crappy human behavior. Enough of that already! What ever happened to treating people the way you want to be treated - and - if you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything?

Ugh. We need to be more like our dogs....

. A letter to the powers that be would be in order!!!! Good luck to you and yours.

[xrvr]

There js a reason i seldom participate in the forums and have basicallynothing to do with airstreams. I understand!

[Hittenstiehl]

Yep, agreed.

The saying of "we're going to the dogs" is certainly a step up in some cases if not all.

Being a person of dry, quick wit and natural sarcasm I often have to remind myself that what seems funny in my brain does not often translate to public consumption.

Sarcasm can be used to bully or put down but that doesn't mean that all sarcasm is bullying. I certainly try to keep mine in check in new surroundings or people I don't know and not direct it at individuals.

Sorry Protag for you and your friend.

Once again I'll recommend coming out with the 4CU. We must seriously be an anomaly, I'm clueless or I haven't been a member long enough. We just seem to eat, hydrate, do campfires and socialize.

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by BoeingJet

National said the Underwriters approve and treat Mexico the same as Canada. They must have the actuarial numbers to support their conclusion. As to all the supposed liabilities that you have thrown out; that is your East Coast experience showing. Must be why you need a lawyer to write a real estate contract. Out west we don’t.

Each individual’s auto insurance covers them. The additional liability insurance required by Mexico, covers many more items, including medical & medivac coverage. I can’t help think what Wally Byram would have thought about all of this.

I’m not trying to make anything personal out of this. You brought up a point, you shared your opinion, I shared mine, and offered advice I genuinely believe to be in your best interest. Sincerely offered in hopes of being helpful - from one American to another without regard for geographic upbringing.

Happy camping.

[BoeingJet]

Originally Posted by mefly2

What ever happened to the unit proposed for Spokane / North Idaho?

We are affiliate members of R12 - Greater LA Unit. These guys are a hoot and we love them. They are so forward & positive with their thinking & planning. Even though we live in PHX, we get enough times where we can hook up with them, it is worth it for us to belong to them. We just attended the R12 Rally in Vegas. We had much more fun and got more value from them than the Intl. Rally in Salem this year. They are the opposite from the old dynasars that haunt R11. Wally Byram who love R12!

[BoeingJet]

Originally Posted by TBRich

This is what I have been told about this even as well... as president of the 4CU, I was surprised that a Mexico Caravan had even been discussed. Several years back the 4CU was doing a bit of pre-planning research about a 4CU rally in Rocky Point. When I brought it up with the International Office we were shut down with no discussion because our blanket liability insurance (provided through International) did not include Mexico. Therefore we could not hold a sanctioned rally there, nor advertise it as a WBCCI Unit event. In light of this decision we dropped the subject.

That said, several of our members have ventured into Mexico in small groups with success... And they have been a great time.

I'm glad the original poster is going ahead with a non-WBCCI event. Presently this is the only way to do it.

I also agree with Hittenstiehl that you should check out the 4CU before leaving WBCCI. You might be pleased with what you find.

Someone really got my event mid-conscrewed as a Caravan. Jay Thompson said it was a National Special Event, but dumped it on R11 because he didn’t want to “bother National” with the application.(his words in an email) Jay seems to have totally blown it on this one.

[BoeingJet]

I already have Airstreamers signing up for this gathering. Since I’m not taking any remunineration at all for this, I’m merely providing planning assistance for a gathering of friends. Having taken enough courses in Law at Univ., I’m not concerned about “Liability” since each Airstreamers has to be responsible for themselves and all their costs, not me, I’m pretty well covered. The fact that their own auto insurance covers them, and required Mexican Liability Insurance the rest, including MedEvac, I’m good with the whole thing. AZ law protects my home and all possessions from lawsuits. Nice to live in the West. Ours laws are from Spanish origin, not British Law from the 1300’s. BTW, I’m from Canada.

[Ken J]

Ummm nothing got “dumped” on Region 11 and name calling is not good form - these old dinosaurs happen to put on one of the best rallies in the USA - it’s called Balloon Fiesta

[66Overlander]

Originally Posted by BoeingJet

Someone really got my event mid-conscrewed as a Caravan. Jay Thompson said it was a National Special Event, but dumped it on R11 because he didn’t want to “bother National” with the application.(his words in an email) Jay seems to have totally blown it on this one.

Each person has a specific role in the club. Jay heads the Caravan Committee. If your event was better classified as a National/ Special Event Rally, then you were talking to the wrong person. There is a National/ Special Event Conmitte Chair that could/should have been consulted. Sorry you were apparently not directed to the proper person to help with your event.