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Old 02-15-2011, 03:13 PM   #101
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corruptissima re publica plurimae leges
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:36 PM   #102
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Rod,

so since we now will have less laws, we will be less corrupt
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:50 PM   #103
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It would be a class act for HowieE to apologize; Mistral provided a clear authority for his statement.

Although CrawfordGene is correct in the description of why an executive committee is necessary for good governance, I think that the folks that are concerned about abuse at the top focus on the WBCCI EC7 because those are the folks who appear to act in their own interest to the detriment of the general membership.

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Old 02-15-2011, 05:51 PM   #104
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Rod,

so since we now will have less laws, we will be less corrupt
Fewer laws, less corrupt.

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Old 02-15-2011, 05:55 PM   #105
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Rod,

so since we now will have less laws, we will be less corrupt
I don' t know, but thanks for publicly acknowledging that corruption exists.

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Old 02-15-2011, 05:57 PM   #106
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Nominating Committee .....

These problems can be solved by making it easy to nominate from the floor or by internet or mail. Units could nominate people. Eliminating strict requirements that make it impossible to quickly rise in the structure of the organization would make it easier for new blood to be nominated and elected. Votes could be by mail and e-mail to increase democracy and participation.
Yep, they are solved in the new constitution, so R U ready then to join the club?
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Old 02-15-2011, 06:27 PM   #107
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Thumbs down

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I don' t know, but thanks for publicly acknowledging that corruption exists.

Very funny wise guy!
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:00 PM   #108
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A minimum requirement might be the ability to differentiate ones best interest from the clubs. Perhaps even to act accordingly on that information.
Directors are fiduciaries and therefore are required to act in the organization's best interest, not their own.

One can state that on the internet and at meetings, or if that doesn't work, sue them in a members' derivative lawsuit. Obviously none of that has worked for reasons well known. A lawsuit was not actually filed, so we don't know how that would have worked out. The lawsuit promoters state they would have had a hard time winning, but I am unsure of that. However, it would have been very expensive.

The law provides the "minimum requirement", the problem is enforcing it.

If all this were solved, would I join the WBCCI? Bob, I doubt it will be solved. Even if the new constitution turns out to be ideal and allows real democracy, I don't think there will be significant change for years. Given my life expectancy (15 or so years), I might not be around for that. Maybe there will be change and ties, vests, flags galore, Lawrence Welk copy bands, parades of self appointed "distinguished" people, self perpetuating and clone leaders, and the rest of the trappings from the 1950's plus a military attitude will all disappear.

But, there are already alternatives to the WBCCI and they are growing while the WBCCI is shrinking. If the WBCCI can change, I think it will last, but be somewhat smaller (3,000-4,000 maybe). If it doesn't change, maybe 2,000 to 3,000. But internet based alternatives are replacing traditional organizations everywhere and they are the future. In 25 years perhaps an internet based organization will have taken over the WBCCI if it still exists (you can remind me of this prediction in 25 years and if I'm still around, I doubt I'll be too concerned). But, perhaps the WBCCI will change quickly and establish a positive relationship with the Forum, become internet savvy, and thrive, though with somewhat different style.

Anything is possible, but I don't see I good future for the WBCCI. I think the image is severely damaged plus trends away from traditional clubs appear unstoppable.

So, I make no commitments to join because I would have to see how it worked out in reality and it might not matter because alternatives look better all the time.

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Old 02-16-2011, 06:58 AM   #109
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Apology accepted.
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Old 02-16-2011, 08:54 AM   #110
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If y'all want to know why SaveWally was shut down..... All of This posted over these last few pages is the best example.
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Old 02-16-2011, 09:05 AM   #111
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Question Huh?

Quote:
This is the best example.
Please elucidate. Like, what is the antecedent of the word "this"?
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Old 02-16-2011, 09:39 AM   #112
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Ummm.... this thread....Over the last few pages. !THIS!
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Old 02-16-2011, 10:09 AM   #113
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They have gotten smarter!

Appears to me the IB7/EC7 learned something from the last go round. If you release the information to early, it gives the side opposed to your changes enough time to create a defense strategy by picking the motion apart piece by piece educate the masses and win in the end like in the MOHO debate of 2007.

We were told three weeks ago there were “only” T’s that needed to be crossed and I’s that needed to be dotted. Over the past three weeks, it has now turned into

“The April issue has a Feb 15th deadline for copy, the committee has finished the final draft and is now in a final proof read.” (Which was yesterday)

To:

“So to adequately reflect or consider alternative amendments to this doc the average member needs more than 4 months? I don't think so.” (We are talking about a “complete re-write here! (Takes the EC7 over three weeks (and still not finished) just to cross “T’s” and dot “I’s”)

To:
“An information packet will go out to the units for their delegates to explain this in more detail.” (I wonder what side of the issues that document will fall on)

Thus, giving anyone opposing the changes time to break it down and educate their Unit by their Spring rally’s (especially the ones in the northern states). This is simply a power play on their side by withholding even the draft document for people to see. As we are getting smarter dealing with how the IBT/EC7 plays the rules (the WBCCI Constitution, By-Laws) they to are getting smarter by not giving out any information until they absolutely need too or are pressured to do so.
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Old 02-16-2011, 11:17 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by rideair View Post
Appears to me the IB7/EC7 learned something from the last go round. If you release the information to early, it gives the side opposed to your changes enough time to create a defense strategy by picking the motion apart piece by piece educate the masses and win in the end like in the MOHO debate of 2007.

We were told three weeks ago there were “only” T’s that needed to be crossed and I’s that needed to be dotted. Over the past three weeks, it has now turned into

“The April issue has a Feb 15th deadline for copy, the committee has finished the final draft and is now in a final proof read.” (Which was yesterday)

To:

“So to adequately reflect or consider alternative amendments to this doc the average member needs more than 4 months? I don't think so.” (We are talking about a “complete re-write here! (Takes the EC7 over three weeks (and still not finished) just to cross “T’s” and dot “I’s”)

To:
“An information packet will go out to the units for their delegates to explain this in more detail.” (I wonder what side of the issues that document will fall on)

Thus, giving anyone opposing the changes time to break it down and educate their Unit by their Spring rally’s (especially the ones in the northern states). This is simply a power play on their side by withholding even the draft document for people to see. As we are getting smarter dealing with how the IBT/EC7 plays the rules (the WBCCI Constitution, By-Laws) they to are getting smarter by not giving out any information until they absolutely need too or are pressured to do so.
Come on Paul, we have this thread with 115 responses about this mystery document that no one has seen and that will cure all evils. What more can you possibly want? Personally I would think that the nearly 6000 paying members would want and deserve a little more respect.

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Old 02-16-2011, 01:56 PM   #115
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we will be less corrupt
Promise?

Eliminate the Executive Committee
Eliminate Mandatory Travel
Eliminate the Nominating Committee
Eliminate the Ethics and Grievance Committee
Adopt Forrest's Motion

Vote No Confidence

Original post June, 1985, updated 1992
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Old 02-16-2011, 02:12 PM   #116
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Difficult as it is to try to project without more concrete details, I do have a few specific apprehensions from the hints that have been dropped to us thus far. Obviously depending upon the facts, the cause for acceptance or alarm will become more obvious but theses are my concerns for the time being;

1. Eliminating delegates strips away the collective bargaining rights of the general membership. It may take away our right to have a voice and bargain in club business.

2. By reducing Region officers but maintaining the full number of the Executive Committee, the scale of power and exclusivity will be even more proportionately skewed in favor of the top leadship than already exists now. I think a vote by the region presidents would be a preferential method of filling the Executive Commitee office, which could also be reduced as well as the traveling standards to conduct business.

3. IMIV can be adopted by a unit's constitution and shouldn't be regarded as the carrot to accept all the new constitution.

Feel free to comment and or add your own points of interest while we all continue to remain at ease and hold for the new constitution's presentation...

I would like to hear from the general members and not the authoritarian voice of insider committee and team members for discussion without accusation and the obvious play of superfluous.
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Old 02-16-2011, 02:27 PM   #117
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yesterday you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by mistral blue View Post

Eliminate the Executive Committee.
then

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That's a sound idea [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Bob/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG], why would any organization need a President, VP, recording secretary or treasurer.
next you say

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Originally Posted by mistral blue View Post

They can stay.


today you say
Quote:
Originally Posted by mistral blue View Post

Eliminate the Executive Committee
Which is it!
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Old 02-16-2011, 02:28 PM   #118
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Wow Mistral Blue,

All of those things could be done with small changes to the exisiting WBCCI Constitution that would be "easy" to understand and would not require a total "re-write" and a few changes to the WBCCI "By-Laws" that can be done with a stroke of a pen by the IBT/EC7.

But that would be way to easy.

Don't you know, to really fix problems requires a total re-write of WBCCI Constitution, WBCCI By-Laws, that will require they take the "new" Constitution to a lawyer (word on the street that still needs to be done) for review to make sure they follow all the laws of Ohio, (costing the club even more money) To then send it out to the Unit Prez's and or membership via either an insert in the Blue Beret or on CD, etc... (costing the club more money, still yet to be decided). Along with all the office time that has been spent by the employee's at HQ answering phone calls on the subject (costing the club money with lost productivity)I wonder if everyone working on this subject paid for all their cost out of their own pocket?

I see how things are, they are allowed to take the better part of 6-7 months to write the thing and you're allow less than 2-3 months to fully understand the changes, educate your unit on the changes (good/bad/fair) get a vote from your unit membership (which the WDCU allowed up to June 1st), instruct your delegate(first find one willing to do the job) on what they can/cannot do in the voting.

Ya, seems fair to me!
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Old 02-16-2011, 02:34 PM   #119
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Bob,

What is the current schedule for the release of the revised constitution?

Bill
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Old 02-16-2011, 02:38 PM   #120
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Arrow Eliminate Article X of the Constitution

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Which is it!
Eliminate the Executive Committee
Eliminate Mandatory Travel
Eliminate the Nominating Committee
Eliminate the Ethics and Grievance Committee
Adopt Forrest's Motion
Adopt a No Deficit Spending Amendment

Vote No Confidence

Original post June, 1985, updated 1992
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