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Old 06-06-2011, 10:07 AM   #1101
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Originally Posted by eubank View Post
Folks, please avoid any personal attacks against anybody, whether members of these forums or not. Any such attack is a violation of our "be nice" policy and will not be tolerated.

Lynn
It seems to me that "attacking" (questioning or challenging or countering) someone's argument, logic or rationalization should be allowed, and that the moderator should be able to distinguish between that and a personal attack. A personal attack would be name calling, or getting into some aspect of their private life that has no bearing on the argument.

Obviously the line between has been crossed a number of times, and it is understandable if the mods are a bit wary.
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:10 AM   #1102
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Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
I gotta say I find the moderation ambiguous. I don't ever see these personal attacks. Will the moderators please be specific in tutoring us as to what has broken the be nice rule, which line is considered an attack, a rant, etc., because I don't see any infractions of the forums rules and don't appear to be getting any smarter despite the generous amount of coaching.
I agree, some of the posts that should be edited aren't.

It also depends who the poster is, some get away with more that others.

Lastly all the mods have different opinions on what is objectionable, but they never say why.

We are all adults state the objection via PM.


Bottom line here IMO is we need a Members only forum to discuss member business.

For the most part IMO it is the non members that stir the pot and have caused the interruption of debate.

Would Airforums consider this, you folks do it for units why not the club?


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Old 06-06-2011, 11:32 AM   #1103
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A members only forum needs to be on a WBCCI controlled site, not on a privately owned site.

Bill

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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
I agree, some of the posts that should be edited aren't.

It also depends who the poster is, some get away with more that others.

Lastly all the mods have different opinions on what is objectionable, but they never say why.

We are all adults state the objection via PM.


Bottom line here IMO is we need a Members only forum to discuss member business.

For the most part IMO it is the non members that stir the pot and have caused the interruption of debate.

Would Airforums consider this, you folks do it for units why not the club?


.
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:36 AM   #1104
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I gotta say I find the moderation ambiguous. I don't ever see these personal attacks. Will the moderators please be specific in tutoring us as to what has broken the be nice rule, which line is considered an attack, a rant, etc., because I don't see any infractions of the forums rules and don't appear to be getting any smarter despite the generous amount of coaching. I am being sincere in my request, and not the first I have made it. This is a recurring issue and many may be unsure of what is not acceptable. There also were a myriad of moderator concerns expressed in advance of posts which I also find unusual from a neutral moderation standpoint and whether posters have become done with the thread they are active in and it needing to be locked down. Perhaps this is out of line but I feel a lack of respect in the amount and method of control being lavished upon the WBCCI subjects. I don't feel like a lawbreaker and disrespectful person but am told we are repeatedly on the basis of our opinions posted here. Could moderators please be more direct and less conceptual and aggravated and subjective in their counsel, actually based on how we are speaking inappropraiately and not about the subject matter with any apparent bias.
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Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
It seems to me that "attacking" (questioning or challenging or countering) someone's argument, logic or rationalization should be allowed, and that the moderator should be able to distinguish between that and a personal attack. A personal attack would be name calling, or getting into some aspect of their private life that has no bearing on the argument.

Obviously the line between has been crossed a number of times, and it is understandable if the mods are a bit wary.
Carol, Forrest,

You bring up valid points. We try to apply moderation light handed and several recent posts by the staff were geared more towards trying to keep things from becoming personal rather than letting things run their respective course. As posted in the June 3rd re-opening thread our intent is to be light handed.

We're still fine tuning ourselves to the thread direction and experiencing a few bumps of our own. What we've seen posted since re-opening the thread is appropriate. We'll do our best to be "more direct" and "less conceptual".

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
I agree, some of the posts that should be edited aren't.

It also depends who the poster is, some get away with more that others.

Lastly all the mods have different opinions on what is objectionable, but they never say why.

We are all adults state the objection via PM.


Bottom line here IMO is we need a Members only forum to discuss member business.

For the most part IMO it is the non members that stir the pot and have caused the interruption of debate.

Would Airforums consider this, you folks do it for units why not the club?


.
Bob,

We have over 51,000 members and currently average over 6,400 visitors per day. This is a lot traffic for a staff of 18 volunteers.

We're not saying that we are perfect and don't make mistakes, but we're not in the business of editing posts. A post stands on its own, good, or bad, and PM's are sent when a post, or posts are pulled.

We do our best to make sure everyone here is treated with the same degree of respect and professionalism. Staff decisions are not made individually, but as a team.

The WBBCI forum is important to us all and we want you all to have a site where dialog and idea exchange can take place.

To All: We value your participation and will continue working to make airforums an enjoyable place for you to visit and participate. As always, feel free to contact any site team member if we can be of assistance.

On behalf of the Site Team
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:39 AM   #1105
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Why?

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Originally Posted by wkerfoot View Post
A members only forum needs to be on a WBCCI controlled site, not on a privately owned site.
Fine, if WBCCI wants to do that. After the last experience, it is not a priority of the new electronic communications committee.

Meanwhile, private forums on Airforums seem to work pretty well.
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:13 PM   #1106
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To put a post script on Kevin245's post above and to answer the why question above.

This website was not created for the WBCCI club or any club for that matter. This site was created to exchange thoughts, ideas and experiences related to the Airstream product. The WBCCI club is part of that and club members and others interesteed in the club has taken advantage of the free offereing here! This has also elevated the passionate discussion to a level that many find objectionable. And when 10 of the last 20 reported threads by the user base of this website reports issues regarding the WBCCI club and the mod team spends more than 50% time with actions regarding the same topic we as the mod team need to make some changes. The behavior in posting for this sole topic isn't to a standard consistant to the other 73,000 threads and almost a million posts.

So the general shot across the bow for the club is ...... if you continue to post the way it has been, several things will occur. Some users will find their usage here restricted and the topic in general will go the way religion and politics topics have gone on this website.

We would recommed the club spend some money and create their own website. Or at least deal with their own concerns and issues away from this website. I know this has done in the past with less than desirable results. And we don't want the less than desirable results here either.

You make the changes or the changes will be made for you.

>>>>>>>Action
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:30 PM   #1107
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I am one of those former WBCCI members. I first joined in 1997. My circumstances changed and i realized I would not be able to travel anytime soon, even after purchasing my beautiful 1986 Argosy 32'. The WBCCI magazine was mostly schedules of rallies. For me, I saw little reason for keeping up the membership. However I continued to attend the lunch ( and sometimes dinner) gatherings of the Region 9 North Texas Unit. They were a really friendly and helpful group of folks. Some super nice people.

For five years, I served as First VP of a 501c3 historical group until the president and his comrade railroaded updates to the bylaws allowing the president full access to the funds. As a result, tens of thousands of dollars disappeared, the books were cooked constantly, the president and his comrade suddenly opened a new business, i resigned and most of the original members left the group which shrank to 50% of its size within a year or two after I left.

After five years of not belonging to any group except Escapees and Good Sam, I was elected president of another similar group (historical, music) which has multiplied three times its size in the past four years. Our books are open to members and non-members alike. and we try to do as little "business" as we can get away with. We have lots of fun, lots of concerts and plenty of music with very little business. If anyone else wants to run this group, they can have it...and will probably do a better job with it.

I am employed by another similar group (a church) that has shrunk 25% in the past ten years. It seems the president (the pastor making $100,000.00 annually) and board (elders) do not see the great failure of what they are doing. Any group that loses 25% of its membership over a short period has a problem, far more important than by-laws. I hope they stay solvent until my real-estate income rises so I don't need the job. <grin>

So I think about Wally and his goals, to get folks out traveling and seeing the world. Then I think about what I read here, the bickering and silly politics (ego-driven always) and think that Wally might be a little sad if he saw what was happening to the group carrying his name. Is all this "politicking" really necessary? Is it THAT important to be recognized by a shrinking group of people as top-dog or as a group leader? What happened to the fun? What happened to the original goals?? Don't those in charge recognize the problem of a shrinking membership? Or do they just not care?

Perhaps if this power-play ended, goals were re-evaluated and re-stated, some of the former members might re-join the group, get excited about the WBCCI again and help arrest the dwindling membership problem.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Don of the Argosy
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:40 PM   #1108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Action View Post
To put a post script on Kevin245's post above and to answer the why question above.

So the general shot across the bow for the club is ...... if you continue to post the way it has been, several things will occur. Some users will find their usage here restricted and the topic in general will go the way religion and politics topics have gone on this website.

>>>>>>>Action
Unfortunately Action that tells me nothing, as I said I don't see what the problem is, can you be more illuminating? Less passion, less complaints, that is not anything a poster can control or know. I never knew you got complaints. Would it help to tell us what they are and why they are valid? We maybe need to bring back the warn meter and change it to passion, perhaps. But I am certain it is not the amount of passion that is a moderating problem so if you could be more specific and rephrase your criticism you might not have to repeat the same thing so many times and feel we are ignoring the warning and the frustration level might become less for all. Restrictions of action or speech are easier to avoid and comply with than the value judgements of others that don't manifest until after the fact. Well now that is incorrect too, some times they do manifest before the fact. I think we really are all trying to stay within the boundaries and not torment the mods, but while you may be counting the times of infractions, others we may still be asking what the infractions are and scratching their heads at your passion... We have been told, I think you are done, I think you have said all that needs to be said, I think this discussion has run its course, you are repeating yourself; these are not things that posters can not predict or that amount to defineable arbitration or moderation, imo.
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:56 PM   #1109
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In an effort to lighten this up a bit and a few words of wisdom all at the same time. Please watch until the end, the last line is the words of wisdom.

Enjoy,

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Old 06-06-2011, 01:20 PM   #1110
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Vague, undefined rules always cause problems. In the law, you have to have reasonably defined standards, but on a privately owned website, the owners and his agents can do anything they want. The control over that is not defined standards, but people giving up on the website because of arbitrary controls and heavy handedness.

Kevin's post was somewhat helpful and probably the most remembered words were "light handed". The second mod post was, in my opinion, heavy handed. I think it would help if you guys could agree.

The rule "be nice" is very subjective. What's nice in NYC may not be considered so in Iowa. I would not want to be a mod. It's a thankless job, only made worse when mods don't agree on what is not nice and how to enforce rules. I have seen many not nice posts over the years and some members seem to be known for them, but when they are not suspended for a lengthy history of such posts, that makes people think "be nice" doesn't mean much at all. Consistency matters too.

It takes a lot to insult me, but I do get irritated when someone consistently insults people for months and there is no moderating of that.

An occasional sarcastic remark is not a big deal in my opinion, but when it goes on and on, I think the total should be considered.

I think I've broken a few other rules by this time (off topic maybe, but I think not) and discussing moderator stuff publicly (a really bad rule that frustrates transparency).

Maybe there should be a no-holds-barred collections of threads, sort of a cage match on the WBCCI, religion and politics.

Gene
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Old 06-06-2011, 01:47 PM   #1111
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Speaking as one of the newest and least-effective moderators here's my suggestion: Don't call anybody out. You can criticize a post - and many deserve to be criticized - but you can criticize without throwing bombs. You cannot fire a direct shot. Even when you can cleverly sneak one in - don't. Often the retaliatory volley is what gets posts reported.

For what it's worth. Pat
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Old 06-06-2011, 02:23 PM   #1112
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What's nice in NYC may not be considered so in Iowa.
Gene
Gene, I have friends who are native New Yorkers, been in Texas over 40 years and have mellowed a bit. But when their Italian family comes to town, They say "Hello" and to me it sounds like they are starting a fight. Amazing. I just listen until I discover if they are mad or happy.

And to keep this on topic, none of them are RVers or Airstreamers.

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Old 06-06-2011, 03:45 PM   #1113
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We would recommed the club spend some money and create their own website. Or at least deal with their own concerns and issues away from this website. I know this has done in the past with less than desirable results. And we don't want the less than desirable results here either.

You make the changes or the changes will be made for you.

>>>>>>>Action
I do spend my money here each year being a contributing member (is that any part of "we?") and this subforum is where I spend a good part of my time. We didn't create the subforum and it was created in advance by the administrator. Perhaps moderators that have more tolerance for the WBCCI issues could be assigned to relieve those that think it should be taken outside, behave, or else. Is that nice? Correct me if I'm wrong but you have to actually exit every other Air Forums thread and go out of your way to enter a WBCCI thread and find what some exclaim is consistantly objectionable to themselves. And you know what? Sometimes in life the path of least resistance is not the right choice.
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Old 06-06-2011, 04:20 PM   #1114
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Carol,

Thanks for your contributions. Know that any contribution from anyone does not off set compliance of the rules and guidelines set up for this website. Those funds are used for website infrastructure and not for the volunteer moderators. Even if it did posting in outside of the terms of service would still not be tolerated.

There have been times we get specific. Then there are users that take the specific direction and word around that specific direction stating, well you didn't say I couldn't post that way. The specifics as they are going to be are posted in the TOS and community rules stated at the bottom of every page.

The users that click the report button for any given post will remain confindential.

Don't go down the road of you didn't create the sub-forum. Because if you are going there then all the admins need to do is pull the sub-forum and we can fix that concern of yours. If that is what is desired I can not make the change and I will get that change to happen. And the issues isn't with the sub-forum! It is with the users that post to this sub-forum. The sub-forum has been open for years. It is only in the last 6 to 12 months that there has been any problems. It has now esclated to a point the problems are consuming too many volunteer hours. Just like other topics (politics, guns, religion) if the posters to this sub-forum can not behave with in the guidelines set below then this topic will no longer be available to post on this website.

>>>>>>>>>>Action
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Old 06-06-2011, 04:27 PM   #1115
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Pay to vote is not Fair.

In an effort to get this back on track, I would like to express why I support the revision. Given that it costs in the neighborhood of $1000 for me to attend the International in order to just vote, I believe this part of the constitution need to be changed. I have voting alternatives in the state, local, and national elections why not WBCCI. I expect that a number of units are not represented each year because of the cost of travel and the International. I am very new at this and thus can not post from experience.

Yes I know that there is not going to be a vote now, but I will still attend to participate in the discussion.

Why should I or someone else from a unit need to spend that kind of money just to express their wishes.

I do not know about anyone else but there are many other things I would like to spend the money on rather than attend a meeting. We must make the meeting less expensive and more convenient (Electronically). As I understand it this must be done through a series of amendments or revision to the constitution.

Thanks to the Mod for their efforts. I have followed this thread all along and have been disappointed in the lack positive improvement suggestions.

This is just my thoughts on the subject. Thanks
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Old 06-06-2011, 04:33 PM   #1116
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It has now esclated to a point the problems are consuming too many volunteer hours. Just like other topics (politics, guns, religion) if the posters to this sub-forum can not behave with in the guidelines set below then this topic will no longer be available to post on this website.

>>>>>>>>>>Action
I leave the red line to the economists Action. If WBCCI costs too much to survive than I suppose you will pull the plug. Though I appreciate your reponse it does not clarify any confusion on my part. One can hardly hit an invisible mark, regardless of the zeal it is pronounced with.
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Old 06-06-2011, 04:46 PM   #1117
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In an effort to get this back on track, I would like to express why I support the revision. Given that it costs in the neighborhood of $1000 for me to attend the International in order to just vote, I believe this part of the constitution need to be changed. I have voting alternatives in the state, local, and national elections why not WBCCI. I expect that a number of units are not represented each year because of the cost of travel and the International. I am very new at this and thus can not post from experience.

Yes I know that there is not going to be a vote now, but I will still attend to participate in the discussion.

Why should I or someone else from a unit need to spend that kind of money just to express their wishes.

I do not know about anyone else but there are many other things I would like to spend the money on rather than attend a meeting. We must make the meeting less expensive and more convenient (Electronically). As I understand it this must be done through a series of amendments or revision to the constitution.
Correct.

How do you think the folks from the west coast feel 3600 round trip with perhaps $2,000+ in fuel +500 rally fee.


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Old 06-06-2011, 05:47 PM   #1118
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I do spend my money here each year being a contributing member (is that any part of "we?") and this subforum is where I spend a good part of my time. We didn't create the subforum and it was created in advance by the administrator. Perhaps moderators that have more tolerance for the WBCCI issues could be assigned to relieve those that think it should be taken outside, behave, or else. Is that nice? Correct me if I'm wrong but you have to actually exit every other Air Forums thread and go out of your way to enter a WBCCI thread and find what some exclaim is consistantly objectionable to themselves. And you know what? Sometimes in life the path of least resistance is not the right choice.
Every member here is a guest. AIR is privately owned and we have rules. Moderators do their very best to be fair and even handed and also assure a good surfing experience for ALL member regardless of their club affiliation. Almost every member who has had a post edited or removed from this particularly problematic thread has received private correspondence regarding that event and we make it a point to keep this kind of interaction private. I encourage you to reread your own PMs for clarification on this issue.

If you have questions about what is permissible to post, please read our forum rules - they set the tone for the board and are the standard to which moderators moderate.

This thread is NOT about a WBCCI forum here at AIR - it is about the proposed revision. Let's try to stay on topic.
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Old 06-06-2011, 05:54 PM   #1119
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I will defer to your request Janet. But to be practical, the question is what is admissable and what is not has NEVER been answered. To continue to be admonished without any answers as how to avoid it in the future doesn't serve moderators or posters, but I acquiesce and hope for the best in the future without any answers. I have read the rules, of course I would do that first before asking multiple times. Whose posts are wrong; mine, his,or hers. If you lump them together and say we are all in trouble and cut it out, who knows who did what? If the moderators use this thread to admonish then why can't I use this thread to inquire who did wrong? Who does it benefit to keep it secret and keep admonishing the entire group? I AM confused. EVERYONE needs to know what the limits are and who and when we surpass them. Why keep that secret when you want to improve our posts? I am frustrated. Did I or didn't I offend? And if not I who? I can't figure it out this time or anytime. Continually we are told to behave ourselves and never told who messed up. This is an impossible situation. I feel chastised but without the benefit of really knowing, and that I am second guessing and walking on egg shells. Is that really necessary? Instead of removing each and every question about moderation and continuing in bringing about your disapproval, why not just tell us what is wrong and then we can all abide by whatever the rules are going to be. I don't ant to break the rules but pming will only result in the individual's opinion to whom you are speaking to at the time. We need better guidelines and mods need to speak to what is inappropriate or not in real time and directly for us to learn the perameters. In relation to Action,s post I meant that I considered myself part of the forum as a member and supporter, no less than the moderators are.

I think there is something lost in translation on the internet and that tone and intent cannot always be readily determined. As far as appropriate threads, and being off topic, I had tried and preferred to have a thread about a new WBCCI forum but it is no longer accessable. that happens a lot with outr threads and we try to fit squeak in whatever we can whenever we can. All the more reason a solution would be beneficial to explore, though removed.
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:45 PM   #1120
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Back to the Revision

The long awaited Bylaws in a rough draft form will be availible at the International.

We ask that all delegates bring ALL proposed Revision amendments with them for the Revision Committee to review and debate at the delegates seminar.

This will allow the members to study the entire set of Bylaws long before next years vote.



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