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Old 05-23-2011, 03:26 PM   #941
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Reminds me of the screen that used to appear on the plant's announcement TV channel when it was being updated.

"Please stand by while information is created for your benefit"

Jim
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Old 05-23-2011, 03:27 PM   #942
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Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
Four days, seven plus hours without a post by Bob.

Is there a gag order?

Gene
No Gene. More apt to be no reason to respond to the nonsense that has taken over this thread.

Did you forget a good lawyer never asks a question that he does not already know the answer to.
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Old 05-23-2011, 03:29 PM   #943
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I have a question...
Does this mean the law suit is back on? Where do I send my money?
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Old 05-23-2011, 05:51 PM   #944
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So for those of you who are attending Alumapalooza....we'll see ya down the road!
I will see you in Ohio, I owe you and Linda a beer!
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Old 05-23-2011, 06:06 PM   #945
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Mr. Pets was out of Internet communication because he was having his way paid to attend a unit rally and give a pep talk to get the Revised Constitution approved by that unit.
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:44 PM   #946
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Where's that worksheet/ballot!!
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Old 05-24-2011, 05:13 AM   #947
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Our unit held an additional feedback session this past weekend. Based on 4 feedback sessions and direction in our Business Meeting, I have prepared a set of changes to the revision. I will be submitting these prior to the Delegates' Meeting and posting them here in a day or two.

The changes do the following:

- remove the sections discussing the Members' Caucus.
- insert sections discussing the Delegates' Meeting.
- provide form 2 methods of voting for MALs, which are:
•electronic ballot in advance of the Delegates' Meeting
(cannot be counted if the question (or list of candidates) is amended on the floor)
•direct voting at the Delegates' Meeting, after confirmation that they are MAL and have not submitted an electronic ballot.
NOTE - MALs will not be seated as Delegates.
- elimination of the "recommendation" on the list of qualified candidates provided by the Nominating Committee (similar to the 2nd amendment being considered.
- insertion of language similar to that in the DenCo amendment.

With these changes, I can vote to approve.
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Old 05-24-2011, 05:33 AM   #948
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
It appears hard to predict what the WBCCI will do next because most of us aren't that devious or dishonest. Most of us try to live up to our word. But it appears the best way to understand the WBCCI is to think of the worst thing they can do next, double it and then expect something like that. It is not cynicism, it is reality.
Gene,
You are normally pretty level headed and insightful in your postings. I find it unfortunate that you chose to dip into the realm of slander and innuendo when you have no understanding of the rational for the delay. I find your choice of words offensive coming from one who has never been in the club and who has said he will probably never join the club.

I know that there were some officers within the WBCCI, below the International level, that felt that this motion was too much, too fast and suggested that the approval process be slowed down. Had that not happened, I don't think there was much chance of it passing after all of the inevitable amendments that were going to occur at the International Rally.

For the pro-revised constitution crowd, the delay probably makes it more likely to be passed after some of the open issues are resolved for all members to see rather than just the Delegates. I really do not think this delay was a diversion tactic as many would suggest. Instead, I think this is an attempt to support change within the club.

That said, I am still not a supporter of this revised constitution, although I like some of the ideas it attempts to implement.
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Old 05-24-2011, 08:17 AM   #949
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There are several options for the delegates,

1. Propose amendments, I understand that there are going to be a lot of them that will need to be consolidated to have a meaningful debate. There will not be an overall vote on just the Revision so the delegates will be sitting thru all the amendment debates/vote.

2. Vote on the Revision with those proposed amendments.

3. Complete the amendments, postpone the final vote with those amendments then known.
Complete the Bylaws in perhaps 90 days send those proposed bylaws out for the units to have plenty of time to debate those changes.
Vote on the whole package in 2012.

4. The IP can withhold the motion

5. A host of other motions can be made before, during and after the meeting.

As of now no one knows the true vote of all the units so speculation is a waste of time.

Anyone wishing to have a unofficial worksheet please email me.


Ps: I would like to commend Matt from GA for taking the time with his unit to explore their options and propose amendments. This was supposed to be done by all units rather than simply saying no to 18 Articles.


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Old 05-24-2011, 09:00 AM   #950
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4. The IP can withhold the motion
Are you saying that the International President could now scrap the entire thing? I thought that was not a viable option from your many previous statements when that possibility was mentioned. I thought the committee was not for the IP but had authority of its own from what we had been told here many times. As far as units supposed to be going over the revision changes I also commend and agree with Matt and his unit on his unit's changes and applaud their perseverance but my unit has had no discussions since the distribution of the package of initial documents from headquarters to unit president to member e-mail, which is very much to my dismay. I joined a unit rather than remain a MAL to get a vote. Looking back a year from today it seems there have been a lot of wheels spinning but time will tell if there has been any progress made forward rather than sideways with razzle dazzle and all that jazz. It seems members have been swamped with material and charged with more to do than the apethetic membership will accept. WAM52 and Ed expressed it very well in summing up the situation, and I couldn't agree more.

Give them a show with hocus pocus that's so splendiferous they wont catch wise...just daze and dazzle them... the big bamboozle
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Old 05-24-2011, 09:31 AM   #951
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Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
Are you saying that the International President could now scrap the entire thing? I thought that was not a viable option from your many previous statements when that possibility was mentioned.
Sure he can but he won't.

Quote:
I thought the committee was not for the IP but had authority of its own from what we had been told here many times.
What?

Quote:
my unit has had no discussions since the distribution of the package of initial documents from headquarters to unit president to member e-mail, which is very much to my dismay.
Get on the phone with the units board, and the Region board and ask,
we know you're not bashful



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Old 05-24-2011, 09:36 AM   #952
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Can you post the unofficial worksheet here, or do we have to ask for it one at a time?

Bill

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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
...

Anyone wishing to have a unofficial worksheet please email me.


...


.
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Old 05-24-2011, 09:49 AM   #953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets

Ps: I would like to commend Matt from GA for taking the time with his unit to explore their options and propose amendments. This was supposed to be done by all units rather than simply saying no to 18 Articles.

.
As I mentioned previously, my unit voted unanimously for me to express their intent with THEIR votes. I believe I am obligated to do so.

The committee that developed the change had a very difficult task. Just because we want to alter it, doesn't mean we aren't appreciative of the committee and the IP for all their hard work.

I hope posting here will help communicate our change. I have asked for guidance from Jackson Center on the method of submittal. I hope to have it in a form which can be accepted and approved.
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Old 05-24-2011, 10:05 AM   #954
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unofficial worksheet

Quote:
Originally Posted by wkerfoot View Post
Can you post the unofficial worksheet here, or do we have to ask for it one at a time?

Bill
It will not upload it exceeds the allowable limit.

But here's the intro

The following is a sample worksheet to assist you in preparing your Delegate. The sample worksheet shows the correct revision wording for each article proposal. You need to mark your vote to approve each of the proposed revisions OR if you wish to make a proposed amendment to any of the articles you may do so. Please use the column provided to the right of the article to which you would like to propose an amendment. Any proposed amendments which are submitted with the final ballot will require an additional ballot and an additional vote by the membership. Any amendments will be submitted at the International Rally by the unit representative in accordance with the following procedures:
1) Proposed amendments have to be in writing. There needs to be four (4) copies, one for the Presiding Officer, one for the Parliamentarian, one for the Computer Services for display on the screen so that the other Delegates can see it, and one for the person making the amendment. The original will go to the International Recording Secretary for the records.
2) Amendment forms and copying equipment will be available in the Office at the International Rally and during the Delegates Meeting.
3) The Parliamentarian will be available in the Office if any Delegate would like to check on the wording and form to present their amendment appropriately.
4) If possible, any proposed amendments should be given to the International Recording Secretary before the Delegates Meeting. She will be in the Office as soon as it is open. That way the Presiding Officer will be aware that a Delegate wants to propose an amendment; and, he will be sure to recognize the Delegate who wants to make an amendment. The Delegates have the right to make amendments from the floor; but, because they need to be in writing and copies need to be made, this could take some time.
5) Each proposed amendment will be voted on by "aye" and "no" or a show of hands, or a standing count or whatever is needed.
6) A majority adopts an amendment.
7) After all the sections of the Proposed Revision have been discussed and any amendments voted on, the entire document, as amended, will be opened for any further amendments that the Delegates want to make.
8) When there are no further amendments, the proposed Revision, as amended, will be voted on by a Roll Call Vote with 2/3 needed for adoption.
9) One thing to keep in mind is that the current Constitution is NOT open for amendment during this process. Also, the proposed Revision is NOT an amendment of the current Constitution. If any Delegate wants to have any of the wording from the current Constitution in the proposed Revision, the Delegate will need to propose that wording as an amendment to the Revision. As with any other amendment, it will need to be adopted by the Delegates before it becomes part of the proposed Revision.



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Old 05-24-2011, 10:19 AM   #955
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Bob,

Please send the worksheet to me.

Bill
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Old 05-24-2011, 10:35 AM   #956
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It would cost nothing to send the complete form to all the members via Constant Contact broadcast email. We pay a monthly fee for the service of unlimited emails. Ask Fred or Cindy to do it. You have already sent out three postings via Constant Contact, so you know it can be done.

It would seem the procedure is straight forward and logical, but will take a lot of time to go through all 18 sections with likely up to five amendments to each section to be considered. The part with the show of hand or by voice is not 1m 1v friendly or democratic, as some delegates are representing 20 times as many members as delegates from smaller units. The smaller units would unfairly have too great a voice in the decisions made.

To be fair, and conform with Robert's Rules of Order, we would need to have a roll call vote on each amendment on each section. That means we might require up to 90 roll call votes. The average roll call vote times I have witnessed in my many participations in the delegates meeting, exceed 20 minutes. So even without the time it takes to introduce each amendment and have a meaningful discussion could easily exceed 30 hours.

Somehow, I think this is not a viable option.
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Old 05-24-2011, 10:46 AM   #957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwightdi View Post
It would cost nothing to send the complete form to all the members via Constant Contact broadcast email. We pay a monthly fee for the service of unlimited emails. Ask Fred or Cindy to do it. You have already sent out three postings via Constant Contact, so you know it can be done.
yep, but that is NOT all the members only 60%, many declined using emails.

Quote:
It would seem the procedure is straight forward and logical, but will take a lot of time to go through all 18 sections with likely up to five amendments to each section to be considered. The part with the show of hand or by voice is not 1m 1v friendly or democratic, as some delegates are representing 20 times as many members as delegates from smaller units. The smaller units would unfairly have too great a voice in the decisions made.
yep, that's another reason the delegate system sucks, how about units that don't send a delegate?????

Quote:
To be fair, and conform with Robert's Rules of Order, we would need to have a roll call vote on each amendment on each section.
Absolutely incorrect!

Quote:
So even without the time it takes to introduce each amendment and have a meaningful discussion could easily exceed 30 hours.
yep, that's why up to 3 days is set aside to do it.



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Old 05-24-2011, 01:23 PM   #958
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60% of the members notified and informed is better than 1% of the members informed, which is the number of concerned members that follow the threads here. Why are you opposed to educating the membership. Do you have something to hide?

The current delegates's meeting always uses a roll call vote on any controversial topic and therefore there is IM IV representation. The roll call vote was used to put an end to the misadventures of the IBT twice in the last 5 years. The club is a representative democracy with 1m 1V (but excludes the MALs from voting). The MALS could fix that themselves, if the chose to do so. For $1 per year they could join WDCU or any one of the other internet units and save themselves $19 per year and have the right to vote, if they chose to do so. Over 400 of them have not chosen to do so. That must mean they think their vote would be meaningless. Since there is only one candidate worthy (in the eyes of the 3 person nominating committee), of running for any office, they may be right.

To call for a shouting match to see which amendments to each section are worthy of being incorporated is not democratic. Certainly not !M!V by any stretch.

The 30 hour delegates meeting I calculated would actually be much longer, if you included any meaningful discussion. To be run properly we would have to find a constitutional lawyer or at least a trained parliamentian to be our delegate. We do not have that many qualified people in all the units. Our unit held a discussion for 2 hours and only a very few people wanted to continue the conversation and instead decided to vote the whole thing down as a bad piece of work which would likely causes the club to jump from the frying pan into the fire. It is a lose lose proposal.
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:52 PM   #959
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Dwight you're are just to closed minded to have a meaningful exchange of ideas.

Having said that, you need to read RONR, you are incorrect about roll call voting.

If you think we have 1M1V with our delegate system I have a bridge for sale.


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Old 05-24-2011, 04:08 PM   #960
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Each Delegate (representative) is given the power to cast one vote for each of the members he represents. That is one member one vote. The Mal "no vote" problem can be easily solved within the current constitution or by the MALS themselves as above. I have read Roberts Rules and most likely understand them better than you.

Why don't you admit it. Norm has outsmarted you. He is a better poker and chess master than you and you put in a lot of work for no gain. The EC 5 or 7 will continue to rule the roost. It is checkmate for you. Your logic is inconsistent and not convincing.
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