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Old 05-10-2011, 11:11 AM   #861
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One issue is cost and difficulty to attend. Perhaps the real answer is electronic participation as an option for delegates.

MALs could vote in advance or select a single delegate.
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:34 AM   #862
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One issue is cost and difficulty to attend. Perhaps the real answer is electronic participation as an option for delegates.

MALs could vote in advance or select a single delegate.
I agree. I have thought members have been priced out of a vote long ago and it only continues to esculate in nature. It is not a matter of losing members or retaining or even recruiting but simply having "quality" members that have no problem covering costs and even volunteering to raise monies starting with their personal contribution and fitting into the current system and by being extended the invitation to be brought "up" by the old order.

Utilizing the electronic methods of working efficiently in modern times is very much key. However that in itself is at odds with expense accounts that enable excessive and unnecessary travel, as if we would not all like to travel gratis endlessly in "business reimbursements" in our Airstreams. Yet that is not affordable with today's membership numbers, nor is it what the majority of active members wish to gleam from their membership these days. More politically correct and attuned to today's challenges for the average Airstreamer is to meet and greet in recreational environments with a minimum of pomp and ceremony and an inclination to increase member benefits such as lower dues and greater benefits that the individual can avail themselves of and not the percentage of SkyMed discount or hospitality basket and formal gala for International officers. Rather, family events, shorter stays, discounted fees and age appropriate entertainment and pertinent seminars should be cultivated. Officer and caravan leadership seminars may not have the draw they once had in prior times with a professional and retired affulent membership.

And Howie and Bob I am not soliciting commentary from either of you by participating in WBCCI threads, as I am certain is the very case with many others. Many were able to carry on before you and I dare say and hope many will be able to continue long after you have had your fill of flash in the pan celebrity.
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:53 AM   #863
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This type of voting has happened in the past and it will probably happen this year. Has any unit had their votes not counted in the past and will this provision be enforced this year?

Bill

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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
There are units that manipulate the vote and the process.

Ask yourself this, can a unit with 50, 100 or 300 members on a hot button issue as this Revision have a unanimous vote?

The Las Vegas odds makers would love a piece of that.

To the Point

Current Bylaws Article XVII is very specific that a percentage method is to be used by each Unit so that their actual June 1st membership is represented by that percentage.
If they are using any other method of representing their Unit's vote, they are in violation of the Bylaws.
Further, it could mean that their Unit votes not be counted.




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Old 05-10-2011, 12:04 PM   #864
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One issue is cost and difficulty to attend. Perhaps the real answer is electronic participation as an option for delegates.
So no debate with other delegates

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Originally Posted by wkerfoot View Post
This type of voting has happened in the past and it will probably happen this year. Has any unit had their votes not counted in the past and will this provision be enforced this year?Bill


It is being discussed, the red flags are the units with
unanimous votes I suppose.

How does it get enforced?


.
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:20 PM   #865
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This type of voting has happened in the past and it will probably happen this year. Has any unit had their votes not counted in the past and will this provision be enforced this year?
Remind me to bring a hard hat to the delegates meeting. If they decide not to count the votes of units that vote "the wrong way", chairs are going to be flying!

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Old 05-10-2011, 12:33 PM   #866
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Question

On a different question, as you know each of the 18 Articles are open for amendment as this is a proposed or fluid doc.

Which Article concerns you the most and how would you suggest it be amended.



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Old 05-10-2011, 12:42 PM   #867
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Nothing has really changed

I find it funny when people us the argument of gas prices, time-off, family commitments, length of the International Rally, etc… as reason why people don’t attend the International Rally and thus as reason to get rid of the Delegates way of voting on issues pertaining to the club, Regional International Rallies, etc…

Does anyone really think people got more time off of work 10, 15, 30 years ago compared to today?

Does anyone really think that families didn’t have commitments back then?

The price of gas vs. income is less “now” than it was in 1955, 1972, 1981 (adjusted for inflation)
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6440

The rally was just as long then as it is now.

The roads where worse, cars slower, etc...

So when people try to use this argument for 1M1V, Smaller Region International, etc… is a bunch of nothing because if you really look at the FACTS, it’s not true!

Maybe the reason why people don’t go to the International Rally is because you can no longer go for pennies on the dollars (since we all need E/W/S) compared to a local campground, there’s nothing for kids, etc… Bring back the days of the International Rally under the “Big Top”, 3amp (if you’re are lucky) and make it fun again, people might actually look forward to going to the International Rally and being a Delegate and casting those Unit votes!
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:59 PM   #868
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The price of gas vs. income is less “now” than it was in 1955, 1972, 1981 (adjusted for inflation)
Gasoline Prices in Perspective | Jerry Taylor and Peter Van Doren | Cato Institute: Daily Commentary
Not sure I can buy that one. The max I paid for gas in 1972 when I went to my first international was $.36 . It is now over ten times that. I can assure you that my income hasn't increased by ten times in the same period.

That being said however that is not what keeps me from going to the current International. What keeps me from going is a feeling it is overpriced for what I am receiving and offers little of interest as there is nothing new after 15 or so of them
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:41 PM   #869
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I for one will never go to an International unless there is wes,and I mean 30 amp. Only way would be if it was held where daytime temps are cool enough to survive. My AS is an rv, not an aluminum tent. jim
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:43 PM   #870
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While gas prices are not the topic, it sure is more interesting than the usual fare here. The Cato Institute prices do not conform to other sources. Adjusted for inflation the previous high was $3.53 in March, 1981. That's from the Dept. of Energy.

And for the following years (actual prices from Dept of Energy), adjusted for inflation:

1935: $2.77
1950: $2.50
1955: $2.42
1962: $2.29
1972: $1.92
1981: $3.22

Gas prices around $2.25 in today's dollars would seem to be average and prices today are well more than 50% higher.

Another measure of prices is what percent of annual income goes to annual fuel usage. I'll let someone else figure that out.

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Old 05-10-2011, 02:04 PM   #871
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The price of gas vs. income is less “now” than it was in 1955, 1972, 1981 (adjusted for inflation)
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6440

...snip...

So when people try to use this argument for 1M1V, Smaller Region International, etc… is a bunch of nothing because if you really look at the FACTS, it’s not true!
Here are some facts. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the United States Government, the price of gas at $.36 in 1972 is equal to $1.92 today adjusted for inflation.

FACT: Yesterday gas cost me $3.76/gallon and that was almost the cheapest price in town. That is almost double what it was in 1972, adjusted for inflation. In most places it is $3.90 to over $4.00 for regular. Yet my 2011 income is less than 50% of my 1973 income adjusted for inflation.

FACT: Gas prices are making it impossible for me to travel, and I suspect hard for others as well.

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Old 05-10-2011, 02:22 PM   #872
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Please disregard my earlier post, I went temporarily insane in this Ga heat. jim
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Old 05-10-2011, 02:29 PM   #873
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My next post will be off to the CATO Institute to let them know they don't have their facts straight based on responses here on the forums and if people had been listening to them (CATO)instead of other sources we might get 800 WBCCI members at the International Rally this year.

Off with their heads!

Maybe we can get the Delegates to vote on which sources of information should be used to base the facts about the cost of gas?

That would be the most worthwhile thing they could vote on this year.
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Old 05-10-2011, 03:14 PM   #874
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we might get 800 WBCCI members at the International Rally this year.

Off with their heads!

.
Actually we did get 871 in Bozeman in 2008. Being more or less in the middle of nowhere and diesel looking cheap at $4.50 when I hit Montana That pretty well shoots the fuel cost is keeping them home idea. Madison didn't do a lot better in 2009 and it was near major population centers and fuel was $2.00 cheaper. The same can be said of Du Quoin. It will be interesting to see what the numbers are .
It is only 351 miles from here and instead I will put on over 2 k round trip going on a caravan.
We sure have wandered off topic
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:32 PM   #875
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We sure have wandered off topic
Well yes and no Rick. WBCCI has had the same discussion of International rally participation being down and what the causes have been. I think I read it in a Blue Beret as well, that gas prices were blamed on low attendance. However an event like the WB Birthday Bash and Alumapalooza draws Airstreamers from all oer the country eager to attend. Gas prices may contribute somewhat to a decline, certainly higher rally and dues fees without increased member value may also play a part, but most importantly, in my opinion, is that leadership never once questioned themselves or their planning and usual MO as a reason for falling attendance. While it is pertinent to ask why is the club shrinking and why are the Internationals getting smaller and smaller, it would be wiser to point to factors other than only gas prices and more to the tune of accountability and lack of success on the part of planners.

I do agree with Paul here though that using gas prices to support dissolving the delegate system is mostly a convenient argument rather than a winning one for singularly supporting that particular change in the revision. I also don't think it has to be strictly a matter of electronic communications verses a deliberative body but that both could also be incorporated to benefit the club. I also think we can have 1M1V and retain delegates. Discussion seems to be more of a twist and zing than a comprehensive comparison in recent posts. I am anxious to see how the delegates handle the situation at the upcoming International.

Rick you have a point that delegates do not always follow the units' recommendations in the past. It happened to us on the name change issue so I share your frustration in that regard. But I wonder if it wasn't the system of voting without returning to the unit for final authority that could rectify that. It seems leadership can use their position to influence rather than guide members through the process and it has happened at many a meeting I have heard.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:38 PM   #876
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While gas prices, lower incomes and irritating leaders probably have an effect, fewer members = fewer attendees.

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Old 05-10-2011, 05:34 PM   #877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets
There are units that manipulate the vote and the process.

Ask yourself this, can a unit with 50, 100 or 300 members on a hot button issue as this Revision have a unanimous vote?


.
News Flash

This change is a "hot button" for 5% of the club, maybe. They are in it for camping and caravans!

I can assure you we had a unanimous vote and an open discussion. People often agree when they have a chance to discuss issues.

So we should offer electronic communication / voting for any delegates who cannot attend the meeting. Cheaper, easier change to sell.

We can keep all the important changes proposed, like eliminating a large portion of the IBT. We can also incorporate the second proposed amendment into this change. That means NO recommended slate. All qualified (members in good standing) candidates presented to the members. Also, give MALs all rights. They can sign over their proxy to a delegate selected to represent MALs, or vote in advance, with their votes counted with the unit votes (cast by delegates).
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:14 PM   #878
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You can evaluate the popularity of the International by comparing the percentage of current members who attend. The percentage has been down recently. It usually runs between 10% and 15%. There are a lot of variables each year effecting the popularity of a particular International. The recent three year planning of the IBT for the Internationals tried to have the rally close to the center of gravity of the member distribution, in hopes of attracting more to come, even if the gas became a little high that year.
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Old 05-10-2011, 08:30 PM   #879
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I don't know how the other units are progressing but I haven't noticed any discussion or voting of my Nova unit other than the delegate giving his personal position for acceptance as written. Any posts I have made have usually gone unanswered and there appears to be little interest or internet activity on the NOVA forum. I have no idea if there is to be a meeting ahead or not before the International. I think there was one e-mail early on.I am unclear about any results. It really can not be determined at this point the involvement of accepting, rejecting or altering amendments for the new constitution by the various units and the next meeting will surely be a unique experience. I wish I could attend.

I think unit presidents keeping in touch electronically could accomplish much together as a group and be a great lead for members and involvement. That there is no centralization of communication as in a WBCCI members forum amounts to making every voice single against the Executive Committee often leading unchallenged support of the majority of IBT. At best as we have seen many inquiries and challenges and e-mails go fallow and unacknowleged in the club.
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Old 05-11-2011, 04:32 AM   #880
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You can evaluate the popularity of the International by comparing the percentage of current members who attend. The percentage has been down recently. It usually runs between 10% and 15%. There are a lot of variables each year effecting the popularity of a particular International. The recent three year planning of the IBT for the Internationals tried to have the rally close to the center of gravity of the member distribution, in hopes of attracting more to come, even if the gas became a little high that year.
In our unit, the level of interest is much higher when the destination offers more. Bozeman, Gillette, and even Madison offered new adventures before and after the rally. DuQuoin has not generated much interest.
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