WBCCI New Constitution

[rideair]

Bob,

The "proviso's" were written for the New Constitution as it was created by the Revision Committee.

I'm just asking:

What happens if durning the delegates meeting things are changed so much the proviso's are no longer valid as written? Who then controls the writting of them?

It appears you don't like anyone that ask tough questions and does not agree with your point of view, to the point of the "name calling" tatics it appears you love so much and used once again in your last post to me. Call me a "naysayer" "trouble maker" "sock puppet", etc... all you want. Remember, "YOU'RE" the one on the Revision Committee, not me. I can personally say it's sad that a WBCCI Committee Member would act this way to the membership when they are asked to answer questions. In all of my interactions (face2face, email, phone, oh and they called me to ask for my help) with others on the Revision Committee through the years, I've never been called any of the names that I have been here by you. Maybe they did behind my back, but never in an open forum.

As for asking questions directly to the committee, I unlike some, like to keep things out in the open for all to see. By doing it that way, others may have their questions answered as well and nothing is being done behind closed doors.

Remember, you're the one pushing for a "Member Caucus" with open discussion for all the world to see and hopes of bringing back the WBCCI forums as a way to do so. For a system you seem to be pushing, it appears you're not in favor of it when it comes to questions about the very Constitution you are pushing to create it!

If the past few months of getting kicked around by you is any indication of how things will be with a "Member Caucus" type system and discussions, I'll stick to the old Delegates system anytime!

[Gene]

The amendment process appears complicated—everything in writing, 4 copies. This means people must work in groups so someone can see what is happening on the floor and make motions if necessary, contact the people in the copying and printing room, maybe through walkie talkies. You also need a runner to pass written copies back and forth. If a comma or a word needs to be added, print that, copy that, make another motion. Someone on the floor can bring a small laptop, compose an amendment, send it wirelessly to their own printer, perhaps battery powered, and do this much more quickly. Nonetheless, this is going to take a lot of time.

The chair is not going to want the meeting to go into the early morning and will try to limit debate. Once it is seen the first amendment (which is or is not an amendment or a revision depending on what you read) takes a very long time, things will get rushed. The last amendments will have to be considered very fast because time will run out. There are rules regarding closing or extending debate and it's very important to know them.

If you want to make this fail, I suppose making every point and appeal and amendment to amendment will eat so much time as to make the whole thing a farce. There will be a temptation to do that, but I suggest avoiding that. Dropping bombs and fomenting delay sometimes works for good, but mostly just angers your possible supporters. Of course if everyone is angry at the chair, then the anger can be turned in your favor.

No matter what happens, there will be lots of controversy and blow back. Either way I expect members will be lost and maybe if it works out positively, eventually they will come back. Given how this organization has a long history of losing members and alienating the ones that stay, it's hard to see how how success will ensue. And, although I wish the WBCCI well, if Bob is one of its leaders I can't imagine ever becoming a member. Someone who cannot control himself and stop insulting people personally is hardly someone to go to a rally with much less respect as a spokesman or leader.

Gene

[CallDon]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

The amendment process appears complicated—everything in writing, 4 copies. This means people must work in groups...contact the people in the copying and printing room...You also need a runner...Someone on the floor can bring a small laptop... Nonetheless, this is going to take a lot of time.

Just wondering if all those on these committies and runners and big-wigs spent this much time trying to recruit new WBCCI members instead of playing "big-government" how much more could be accomplished and slow down the bleed-off of members.

???

D*

[Coloradobus]

Good point "rideair" All this name calling and last minute, "too late" Revised Constiutuion PR is falling on deaf ears. why wasn't this done sooner? Too little, too late, just say NO!

[Nuvite-F]

Originally Posted by Coloradobus

Too little, too late, just say NO!

Good idea! Think I'll order a few of these to pass out at our unit's spring rally. . . before the business meeting. . .

Button - 1.5" Round Just Say No

Just Say No Button from Zazzle.com
.

[HowieE]

Just thought you might like to see how the Old Guard, that you have all claimed set this committee up and were pushing for it passage is in reality running scared that it might pass and is attempting to block progress.

The Fl. unit, that this comment came from, has a sizable number of IBT, PIP, and BT, plus the one man Constitutional Committee and the past National Membership Chairman in it attempted to railroad a No vote through the greater membership of that unit.

Hi HowieE
I sent that, He is referring to the minutes of their last meeting not attached here, to you so you could see how your old buddy in the FL Unit tried to ram rod the vote against the new constitution. I was livid that they would let 5 people speak for 62 with a vote at an unscheduled meeting.
A few days later after some of us voiced our displeasure, the vote they had their was ruled as not happening. All members have can now vote by mail or e-mail.
I have sent them my vote in favor of the new one

There is something to be said for 1M1V. If they have it they will use it.




.

[HowieE]

Originally Posted by Nuvite-F

Good idea! Think I'll order a few of these to pass out at our unit's spring rally. . . before the business meeting. . .

Button - 1.5" Round Just Say No

Just Say No Button from Zazzle.com
.

I think you are going to have to step up your efforts. You have the loyal 6 pack here following your train of thought but not the general membership.



.

[JimGolden]

I own a copy of Wally's book. His organization was all about camping. Caravaning to be more specific The End.

He had his issues in the 50's with baloney too, but not to the degree I read here.

It's no wonder the club is in decline. Have you guys actually read through all this thread? Good grief! My 86 year old grandpa, who was a member of WBCCI for thirty years, and has owned scads of Airstreams, dropped out. He said "It's not fun anymore."

Me, I bought a silver trailer to go camping.

Back to the infighting....

[xrvr]

Listen, vote yes, vote no, or do not vote, but please keep on camping!!!!!! Being with, camping with, talking to ASers is our sanity, our adventure our REASON TO KEEP ON KEEPIN ON. JIM AND LINDA

[LI Pets]

Originally Posted by rideair

Bob,

The "proviso's" were written for the New Constitution as it was created by the Revision Committee.

I'm just asking:

What happens if durning the delegates meeting things are changed so much the proviso's are no longer valid as written? Who then controls the writting of them?

delegates

It appears you don't like anyone that ask tough questions and does not agree with your point of view, to the point of the "name calling" tatics it appears you love so much and used once again in your last post to me. Call me a "naysayer" "trouble maker" "sock puppet", etc... all you want.

no one has answered more questions, didn't know you all of a sudden have a thin skin.

In all of my interactions (face2face, email, phone, oh and they called me to ask for my help) with others on the Revision Committee through the years,

Who else on the committee did you ever speak to? who called you?

"through the years", the committee is less than a year in existence.

As for asking questions directly to the committee, I unlike some, like to keep things out in the open for all to see. By doing it that way, others may have their questions answered as well

I guess that's why you did a no show at your units biz rally

[LI Pets]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

The amendment process appears complicated—everything in writing, 4 copies. This means people must work in groups so someone can see what is happening on the floor and make motions if necessary, contact the people in the copying and printing room, maybe through walkie talkies. You also need a runner to pass written copies back and forth. If a comma or a word needs to be added, print that, copy that, make another motion. Someone on the floor can bring a small laptop, compose an amendment, send it wirelessly to their own printer, perhaps battery powered, and do this much more quickly. Nonetheless, this is going to take a lot of time.

Gene again since you speak without ever reading the supporting doc's you're incorrect again.

A copy machine will be in the delegates meeting room, moreover, any minor changes to a proposed amendment can be oral.

The chair is not going to want the meeting to go into the early morning and will try to limit debate.

Again incorrect there are upto three days set aside for unlimited debate.

[rideair]

Bob,

1. Thank you for answering the question about the “provisos”. If you had just done that in the first place for me and others, this whole discussion would seem less of a joke.

2. There has been other subject’s “through the years” facing this club, MOHO, Name Change, Delegate Voting, etc…. that I’ve had conversions with a member of the committee. I’m sorry if it bothers you if others have actually talked to the IBT/EC7 in the past.

3. I didn’t show up at the biz meeting for two reasons. One, I had been on out of town biz travel that week and felt that day was better spent spending time with my family than going to a WDCU biz meeting. Two, I didn’t feel it was worth spending over five hours of round trip driving to come and listen to you spin you load of crap for something that really does nothing to make the club any better. I personally don’t need to listen to you or anyone else spin the New Constitution as the savor of the club, some can read a document and understand it for what it is.

4. As for the “thin skin” comment you made, I find you very entertaining.

5. Please keep the laughs coming!

[Gene]

Originally Posted by LI Pets

Gene again since you speak without ever reading the supporting doc's you're incorrect again.

A copy machine will be in the delegates meeting room, moreover, any minor changes to a proposed amendment can be oral.



Again incorrect there are upto three days set aside for unlimited debate.

Bob,

You never miss an opportunity to attack, even an imagined opportunity, so I'll point out that "delegates" is possessive and should have an apostrophe. The use of "can be oral" is also an improper use as "can" does not tell us whether it is permitted or not; the word should be "may". In your last sentence you do not end a two word sentence with a period, do not start the next sentence with a capital letter and run two words ("upto") together. This is basic elementary school grammar.

My suggestion about bringing a small portable printer came from the thought many people might be lined up trying to use a copier or printer and the opportunity may be missed as things progress. A well oiled operation will be self contained.

I also knew it was more than one day, but it is possible this will go into the early hours all 3 days. There's a lot of stored up anger that may result in amendments upon amendments upon amendments and contentious debate. In my experience debates over legalisms take inordinate amounts of time as most people don't deal with this stuff in their normal lives.

When someone says someone else has "thin skin" that is a poor excuse for attacking someone. Is it required to have thick, insensitive skin to debate? Should all reasonable, calm people step aside and let the thick skinned and abusive run things?

Gene

[LI Pets]

Thanks for the grammar lesson & opinion, I'll take both under advisement.

[Pahaska]

something that really does nothing to make the club any better.

This really sums it up in one short sentence fragment. A new constitution (along with some so-far secret new bylaws) is not going to stop the member drain and it is not going to ease the unrest in the club.

That is not to say that every fragment of it is bad. MALs should have a vote and should be able to hold office. That is simple fairness. All this would take is a motion. It is simply that most of it is unnecessary and some of it is going in wrong directions.

The only good thing I can see coming out of this fiasco is that a lot of issues will be hashed in public and that may engender action.

BTW, Texas Coastal Plains, largest unit in Texas, emailed that they voted unanimously against the proposal. I hope that after our next week meeting, Texas Highland Lakes joins them.

[wkerfoot]

John,

Do you have any additional information on the vote, how many voted or the discussion?

Bill

Originally Posted by Pahaska

This really sums it up in one short sentence fragment. A new constitution (along with some so-far secret new bylaws) is not going to stop the member drain and it is not going to ease the unrest in the club.

That is not to say that every fragment of it is bad. MALs should have a vote and should be able to hold office. That is simple fairness. All this would take is a motion. It is simply that most of it is unnecessary and some of it is going in wrong directions.

The only good thing I can see coming out of this fiasco is that a lot of issues will be hashed in public and that may engender action.

BTW, Texas Coastal Plains, largest unit in Texas, emailed that they voted unanimously against the proposal. I hope that after our next week meeting, Texas Highland Lakes joins them.

[wheel interested]

At the Mid-Winter IBT meeting that I attended there were two problems with copying. There was a lengthy delay before everyone received needed copies during the meeting yet the meeting proceeded with many without a copy until after the next break. The second problem was that it was so costly that the IBT proposed to spread that cost over to the entire general membership of the club for renting the copier and the paper consumption. Maybe everyone should be syncing their IPads. However that was voted down. Both problems are worth noting, I think, and likely to be similar in the immediate future. And another problem we will see again, was the problem of members lining up to speak but the International President having to move the meeting along resulting in those that were not able to voice their comments even after being in queue to speak. It is difficult to ascertain how many more members will have the opportunity to speak on many more issues within a specified and finite venue as what is to be allotted in the upcoming delegates meeting. Also amendments outside of the revision constitution will also need time to be addressed separately and likely at odds with the revision proposals and amendments which may lead to unforeseen problems and confusion as all involved struggle to understand the contexts of the distinguishing variances of each acceptance or rejection, as in "what if," and "does this mean," "just to be clear we are voting on the amended amendment and not the amendment itself," and now this time around there will be both amendments with the current constitution and then also amendments of the revision constitution. If this proceeds like clockwork it will be one for the journals and a massive undertaking and achievement indeed. Realistically speaking I don't consider it possible, least of all probable, now that we have been given more information about what lies ahead. Remember all the viable characters that were in charge are still the very same individuals that would not allow member majority backed changes to progress without impeding its forward motion and that for the most part was only a single clearly defined modification with ample time and consideration.

[Pahaska]

Originally Posted by wkerfoot

John,

Do you have any additional information on the vote, how many voted or the discussion?

Bill

The email did not specify the size of the meeting; only that the vote was unanimous.

Wow. A doe with TRIPLET fawns just walked right by my window. I see lots of twins, but this is the first triplets I have seen.

[rideair]

Bob,

I would like to apologize for some of the wording in my last post. I sometimes "type" what I'm thinking instead of how something should be said for others to read in a public forum. In an effort to right my wrongs, the post has been edit to remove any wording some may find unpleasent.

Now, back to your regular scheduled programming on the "Comedy Channel"

[LI Pets]

Originally Posted by wheel interested

At the Mid-Winter IBT meeting that I attended there were two problems with copying. There was a lengthy delay before everyone received needed copies during the meeting yet the meeting proceeded with many without a copy until after the next break.

One copy will be displayed for all to read on a screen.

And another problem we will see again, was the problem of members lining up to speak but the International President having to move the meeting along resulting in those that were not able to voice their comments even after being in queue to speak. It is difficult to ascertain how many more members will have the opportunity to speak on many more issues within a specified and finite venue as what is to be allotted in the upcoming delegates meeting.

If it can't be said in up to three days of meetings.......

Also amendments outside of the revision constitution will also need time to be addressed separately and likely at odds with the revision proposals and amendments which may lead to unforeseen problems and confusion as all involved struggle to understand the contexts of the distinguishing variances of each acceptance or rejection, as in "what if," and "does this mean," "just to be clear we are voting on the amended amendment and not the amendment itself,"

As far as the Revision only amendments to it will be addressed.
First there's an amendment then dated changes to it, then vote.

Remember all the viable characters that were in charge are still the very same individuals that would not allow member majority backed changes to progress without impeding its forward motion

How so?