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Old 04-27-2011, 06:31 PM   #761
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We are said [sic] that the "Member Caucus" is a great thing.
But when asked, "Who has control over when, where and how these meetings are scheduled?"
You're told "That's in the Bylaws".
So one has to ask the question.
Why in the world would I vote for a system that I have "NO IDEA" When, Where, How and by Whom will control these meetings?
And to be told "It's in the Bylaws". Guess "who" controls the "Bylaws" in the "New Constitution"? That's right, the IBT.
Apparently you missed this part in reading the revision.

Sec. 1 There shallbe an Annual Members’ Caucus scheduled during the summer months or at a scheduled International Rally, if needed, to discuss proposed amendments to the Standard of Conduct or Constitution and other agenda items. Discussions at the Annual Members’ Caucus shall serve to inform members and the originators of proposed amendments about concerns, possible modifications and benefits of the proposal before a direct vote by members takes place.
Sec. 2 All WBCCI members may attend and participate in the Annual Members’ Caucus.
Sec. 3 Headquarters will prepare the Annual Members’ Caucus agenda which will include any proposed amendments to the Standard of Conduct or Constitution submitted in accordance with Article XVII, or any item proposed for discussion by the International President, the Executive Committee, the IBT, an Area or Unit. The agenda will be published in The Blue Beret and on the WBCCI website at least thirty (30) days prior to the Annual Members’ Caucus.
Sec. 4 The International President shall preside at the Annual Members’ caucus.




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Old 04-27-2011, 08:08 PM   #762
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Whose caucus?

“Sec. 4 The International President shall preside at the Annual Members’ caucus.”

Does anyone detect a conflict of interest or a controlling interest with the IP presiding over the members’ caucus?

Definitions of caucus:
1. a closed meeting of the members of one party in a legislative chamber, etc, to coordinate policy, choose candidates, etc.
2. such a bloc of politicians: the Democratic caucus in Congress; a group of leading politicians of one party; a meeting of such a group.
3. a local meeting of party members.
4. a group or faction within a larger group, especially a political party, who discuss tactics, choose candidates, etc.

Is it the IPs' caucus or the members' caucus?
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:32 PM   #763
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See RONR pg 587 generally and 433 "this person should be well versed in parliamentary law and should be thoroughly familiar with the bylaws and other rules"

Who else would you suggest to preside?
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:25 PM   #764
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I am certainly glad to hear that intimate knowledge of RONR is a prerequisite for International office.

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See RONR pg 587 generally and 433 "this person should be well versed in parliamentary law and should be thoroughly familiar with the bylaws and other rules"

Who else would you suggest to preside?
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Old 04-28-2011, 07:54 AM   #765
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:58 AM   #766
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Bob,

Thank you for the answers you provided. I have read the New Constitution many times and still don't see were it answers the questions.

I'm not trying to be a pain, but the sections you state from the New Constitution to answer my questions, really does not answer them at all.

So how does a WBCCI member call for a "Member Caucus" meeting?
How is it determined "when" and "where" it will be held and by "whom"?

Are you saying that I as a WBCCI member can say:

"I want to hold "The Member Caucus Meeting" in Virginia on July 23-24, 2012 does that becomes the "official" date, place and time it is to happen and the IBT Prez will show up?

What if Bill Smith another member wants to hold it in Texas on Aug. 1-3, 2012?

Who decides when, where and how this meeting will happen?

I'm sorry, your answer "does not" answer What or Who controls the When, Where and How these meetings are scheduled.

You said at one time "It will be controlled in the "Bylaws"". Under the New Constitution the IBT controls the "Bylaws". I understand there are those that are trying to change that, but what happens if they dont?

We will then be subject to the IBT determing and overseeing when, where and how this meeting will happen.

People who don't want to see the train wreck, should stop driving by.
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Old 04-28-2011, 11:10 AM   #767
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Good point, it is restricted to one annual Caucus at international.

Your could ask that deliberative Caucus be held if requested at the mid winter also.

The point of a Caucus is to have a group so to have several members picking different locations would not work.

Why don't you propose an amendment to accomplish that if you wish.


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Old 04-28-2011, 12:11 PM   #768
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Bob,

Thanks, but no thanks to proposing an amendment.

My guess, that delegates meeting will be the meeting from delegates hell even as it stands now.

Add to that, a bunch of amendments, wording and re-wording, strike this, add that, correct this statement, etc... and it gets ugly real fast to t he point where heads will be spinning and only a few who have been living this crap for the past 5 years will really understand whats happening and how each word will affect how this club is run and this is coming from someone that has read the current Constitution and Bylaws over 20 times and the New Constitution more than 10 times in both the long "diff" document and the short document.

As I said before, my time as a Unit Prez is over and it's up to the current leadership of the WDCU to take on this roll to educate the Unit, suggest changes and say if it is a good or bad choice to pass the New Constitution. I as a WBCCI member (not a WDCU officer)do not think it changes all that much and could make things worst. I will not be like some PIP's that still run the club from the sidelines. I will however keep asking questions and pointing out holes that need to be filled as a member of the WBCCI.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:21 PM   #769
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Quote:
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My guess, that delegates meeting will be the meeting from delegates hell even as it stands now.
Add to that, a bunch of amendments, wording and re-wording, strike this, add that, correct this statement, etc... and it gets ugly real fast to the point where heads will be spinning and only a few who have been living this crap for the past 5 years will really understand whats happening and how each word will affect how this club is run
You know you just pointed out another reason(s) that delegate system has it flaws.

A Caucasus has a lot less pressure because the vote comes several weeks after the debate.

Quote:
I will not be like some PIP's that still run the club from the sidelines. I will however keep asking questions and pointing out holes that need to be filled as a member of the WBCCI.
The revision changes the role of the PIP to a non voting adviser.


ps:Are you going to your units Revision meeting tomorrow?




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Old 04-28-2011, 05:22 PM   #770
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ps:Are you going to your units Revision meeting tomorrow?
.
Maybe you will get lucky Paul and a PIP or PVACP, or PMTC will come and advise you. Maybe Bob will even come and enlighten you as to how to vote. Just be sure you are at the next International so your vote can be counted You had better contact you AP and have them change the rally from WDCU Capital Kick off Rally to Revisionist Meeting Rally. I can just see it now, a whole 1 minute will be spent discussing the issue. That is if the WDCU still holds the same business meetings it has in the past.
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Old 04-28-2011, 07:45 PM   #771
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Bob,

In an effort to not turn the "WDCU Kick-Off Rally" into the "Bob and Paul New Constitution Smack Down Rally" I will not be attending.

The leadership of the WDCU are all very smart people and I'm sure they can see the New Constitution really changes nothing since all the power that controls the real problems with the WBCCI is in the "Bylaws" not the Constitution and under it's current form, the New Constitution does nothing to change that. One can say, "Well we can amend it on the floor during the delegates meeting". It's just to many if's, and's and but's to me. I would suggest changing the current Constitution with the "Forrest Amendment" which in my eyes does more to right the ship in the long run.

I hear you will be there, have fun selling them on your vision. Even though I disagree with what you're selling, I wish you safe travels. I'm sure they will treat you with respect. Plus, I remember in a post where you said you declined the invitation to sit with me at a campfire with a beer, so there's no reason for me to attend anyway.

Enjoy the trip down,
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Old 04-28-2011, 07:54 PM   #772
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WHOA that's not right. Was Bob solicited to speak at the rally? I understand completely I think I would forgo a unit get-together in leu of a Bob smackdown wrestlemania but geeze louise Paul it's your unit. Was this prearranged or thrust upon the unit?

BTW Bob, just how mant units contacted you in your offer to speak to their unit, as opposed to you contacting or providing them with your service?

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Old 04-28-2011, 07:59 PM   #773
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pure irony is it not Carol?
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:57 PM   #774
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Just to set the record straight.

The offer was made to the various units and the WDCU officers agreed and accepted the offer.

Bob has been invited to the Kickoff Rally to present the case for the revision proposal. I have no doubt he will be treated with the utmost respect during his visit. The business meeting will be held the following evening.

By the way, the last business meeting of the WDCU I attended this year lasted for almost two hours and it wasn't just idle chat. If the business meetings anyone attended in the past were not presided over with the proper respect for the process, the only ones who can be blamed are the members who attended and the officers in charge.

Its easy to stand on the outside and cast aspersions.
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:32 PM   #775
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Its easy to stand on the outside and cast aspersions.
I am not very sure about how easy it is to sit on the outside when it is Bob who shucked you to the outside especially of the Defend Wally team if you just so happen to be me or Leo, but I will concede that Bob has been officially invited to address the unit. Thanks for the info. Now Bob, the question still remains just how many units have invited you to speak, since you changed from lawsuit advocate to revision committee member?
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:52 PM   #776
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Just to set the record straight.

Its easy to stand on the outside and cast aspersions.
You are very correct. Fortunately, I was on the inside for a few years, so I am speaking from knowledge.

It is great that the WDCU is taking this issue so seriously. I sure hope you all get it figured out. Bob will steer you right....
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Old 04-29-2011, 05:27 AM   #777
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Now Bob, the question still remains just how many units have invited you to speak, since you changed from lawsuit advocate to revision committee member?
Civility aside, Carol with your on again - off again support, replete with sarcasm I'll decline to answer your questions for now.

Please direct any inquiries here Wbccirevision@gmail.com to-date dwightdi, Nuvite, JStanley, Coloradobus, Pahaska, Ed Emerick, DreamStreamr and yourself have not asked one question directly of the committee, why?

Is it because some of "You can't handle the truth" do you wish to rely upon miss information of others including non members, I hope not!


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Old 04-29-2011, 09:23 AM   #778
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Now that we know who has not asked questions, who has asked questions of the committee directly?

Bill

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Civility aside, Carol with your on again - off again support, replete with sarcasm I'll decline to answer your questions for now.

Please direct any inquiries here Wbccirevision@gmail.com to-date dwightdi, Nuvite, JStanley, Coloradobus, Pahaska, Ed Emerick, DreamStreamr and yourself have not asked one question directly of the committee, why?

Is it because some of "You can't handle the truth" do you wish to rely upon miss information of others including non members, I hope not!


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Old 04-29-2011, 12:55 PM   #779
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Civility aside, Carol with your on again - off again support, replete with sarcasm I'll decline to answer your questions for now.

Please direct any inquiries here Wbccirevision@gmail.com to-date dwightdi, Nuvite, JStanley, Coloradobus, Pahaska, Ed Emerick, DreamStreamr and yourself have not asked one question directly of the committee, why?

Is it because some of "You can't handle the truth" do you wish to rely upon miss information of others including non members, I hope not!
.
I happen to read English. I have read and reread the material with an engineer's eye. I can not think of one section where directly asking questions of a "committee" member would make me more informed.
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Old 04-29-2011, 02:28 PM   #780
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Black and White

John,

Unfortunately, in today’s world it appears many people need to be told what to think instead of how to think.

Glad to see that you are one of the so called “Old School Guys” that can think for themselves.

What’s that old saying “It’s all there in black and white” if you don’t understand it, read it again and again until you do.
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