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Old 02-12-2011, 04:43 PM   #41
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When they got back, the members of the Unit were so PO's at them they finally let the club.
Sounds like they sent someone they had no confidence in, if the unit can't send someone that understands the mindset of it members, they sent the wrong person.

If that person learns of new information and wants to vote differently due to the input they received the members have to trust that persons judgement.


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Unit, tell your delegate to vote they way you want them to based on the "re-write", if a "SINGLE" word is changed on the floor, have them "VOTE NO". Have it brought back to you, the Unit membership so you can look over the changes and vote again next year!
I will almost guarantee that amendments will be brought forward on such an import foundation document of the club.

So following your advice they should not go just to vote no, totally counter productive.

So following your advice they may go home year after year forever.

So following your advice should they wear a pirates outfit also




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Old 02-12-2011, 06:16 PM   #42
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Sounds like they sent someone they had no confidence in, if the unit can't send someone that understands the mindset of it members, they sent the wrong person.
Who would have thought the unit president of Metro Detroit would be one of those that would flip flop against the unit's instructions? Oh he got an earful from many. Point is delegates can be swayed and are put on the spot to make their best guess fast without going back to the unit and having discussion and a members vote. Even the IP flipflopped under pressure and insistance from the former PIP at the last midwinter. It happens and we should be certain to avoid that type of situation.

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So following your advice they should not go just to vote no, totally counter productive.

....they may go home year after year forever.
There is no reason not to take all the time that is necessary to examine this and possible changes, and it remains that we don't have to replace the constitution at all. We didn't even know we wanted or needed a new one! Just because the EC ordered a committee and a report doesn't mean we have to be accepting or drafting a new constitution. I think unit members will not give up their voice or power unwittingly this time.
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Old 02-12-2011, 06:41 PM   #43
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So following your advice they may go home year after year forever.
Is there some reason that this is such a burning issue that it MUST be worked out this year? If so, what is that reason and why hasn't the membership been informed of it? Why wasn't this rewrite opened up to the membership for commentary and input (don't try to argue a thread on these forums counts- that explanation is silly and just will not do)?

When some one is trying to sell me something, or convince me to do something and insists that the action must be carried out right this moment, without adequate reflection or time to consider alternatives, red flags go up in my mind.

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So following your advice should they wear a pirates outfit also
I should think that IBT would be the ones to wear this garb. As I understand piracy, it involves seizing the property of others in an illegal fashion.
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Old 02-12-2011, 07:17 PM   #44
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So to adequately reflect or consider alternative amendments to this doc the average member needs more than 4 months?

I don't think so.
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Old 02-12-2011, 07:25 PM   #45
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Final copy is due to the units on April 1, vote is June 30. Three months to my counting. Less with travel time to the International and distribution to the unit members.

Bill

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So to adequately reflect or consider alternative amendments to this doc the average member needs more than 4 months?

I don't think so.
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Old 02-12-2011, 07:40 PM   #46
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I count it as ZERO time for the units to consider any of the changes if they are made or suggested at the delegates meeting and then immediately voted upon.

How about an old graphic, so deja vu.
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Old 02-12-2011, 09:41 PM   #47
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I count it as ZERO time for the units to consider any of the changes if they are made or suggested at the delegates meeting and then immediately voted upon.

How about an old graphic, so deja vu.
Careful there, such statements can be taken as absolutees. You were and I assume are still very pro-change on other issues. You used to think that club leadership were the "no change" folks. I guess it all comes down to whether the changes being proposed or made are in line with ones individual wishes. Trouble is that in a club environment, everything is a compromise - you have to take some good with some no-so-good. I guess the ratio of those two should be roughly proportional to ones happiness within the club.

I have no idea what this new constitution will look like, but I do think that the endless debate without seeing it is counter productive. Discuss it all you want when it is published. Vote for it or against it as you see appropriate. But until it is published this negative bickering accomplishes noting and continues to give the club a needless black eye it the eye of potential members. Yes, the club is not perfect, but it's just not all evil prots and bad news. Some of us are having fun.
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Old 02-12-2011, 09:56 PM   #48
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Careful there, such statements can be taken as absolutees. You were and I assume are still very pro-change on other issues. You used to think that club leadership were the "no change" folks.
Carol he's right! flip/flop

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I count it as ZERO time for the units to consider any of the changes if they are made or suggested at the delegates meeting and then immediately voted upon.
That's the way clubs are run under RONR, have you read the book, perhaps while your waiting you can catch up on the rules


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Old 02-12-2011, 10:15 PM   #49
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Discuss it all you want when it is published. Vote for it or against it as you see appropriate. But until it is published this negative bickering accomplishes noting and continues to give the club a needless black eye it the eye of potential members. Yes, the club is not perfect, but it's just not all evil prots and bad news. Some of us are having fun.
Finally, a voice of reason.

Thanks Joe..............
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Old 02-12-2011, 11:31 PM   #50
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I don't believe delegates should accept a change on the constitution that their unit has not approved of without going back to their units and having a unit discussion and vote. If there are changes from what we have three months to examine or we have changes to request at the delegates meeting then I suggest the delegates come back to tell us what has transpired and check for the members direction. One opinion should not substitute for an entire unit's concensus. I don't want one person guessing what my choices or the choices for an entire unit are. We have been assured that there will be unknown variables introduced. The consequences of a variance could be greater than would be perceived at first blush. There is an advantage of seeking the counsel of many minds and considering any and all effects of changes and not making hasty decisions at the delegates meeting. I would think a delegate would want to carry his unit's vote forward rather than have the singular responsibility of making decisions for the entire unit. 1M1V is a good practice to impliment.

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But until it is published this negative bickering accomplishes noting and continues to give the club a needless black eye it the eye of potential members. Yes, the club is not perfect, but it's just not all evil prots and bad news. Some of us are having fun.
Waving a banner like that even got Bob to jump on the bandwagon again. Please speak responsibly. I haven't heard any bickering or anyone talking of evil. Exercising our right to vote within this club as we would like and speaking freely to influence or debate with others should not be maligned or vilified nor greatly exaggerated. And Bob, I hate to spoil it for you too but there is no flipflopping going on either.
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Old 02-13-2011, 03:59 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Carol he's right! flip/flop



That's the way clubs are run under RONR, have you read the book, perhaps while your waiting you can catch up on the rules


.
If I haven't seen a better case of the old pot callin the kettle black!!! Have you ever read your posts from a little over a year ago? (Rhetorical question, of course you have and so has just about everyone else) I will spare us all with dredging them back up.
(Severe sarcasm to my voice) Now you are an expert at Roberts Rules too? I never have seen anyone straighten you out on the way you have interpreted that very book you are now an expert of? I thought Bob is short for Robert and it was the very book you wrote.


*off with the astounded look on my face*

So when will this new constitution be out so we can review it and stop speculating like Joe suggested? Will this be communicated clearly and directly to the members? Will we have to wait for Presidents? internal distribution (The WDCU site still has the may 2010 news letter, might take time to filter out)? Is Airforums now the official announcement tool?

Callin Carol a flip flopper, that's so funny. Bob, ya know where flip flopper comes from? That was what they labeled Kerry. Remember him? He was the guy that went to Vietnam, saw action first hand on the ground, it changed him severely and he became anti Vietnam. Seems that some guys that didn't even go over and fight threw that "flip flopper" yoke on him. The man made his choice to go fight as asked, the war changed him, and for that he was labeled a flip flopper. Kerry was not my man, but the injustice his character went through because he went from soldier of war to soldier of peace is astounding.

If anything Carol has stayed her ground. Her position is very much the same as it has always been. Maybe someone might want to pull up LI Pet's threads from two years ago, might be interesting to see the personal change.

As far as myself, I am a "flip flopper" (picture candle in right hand, solum look of remorse tinged with relief only confession can bring) I was a WB ZEALOT until a year and a half ago. I, like Joe and others, told everyone to try it before they read all the negative stuff. I even paid the membership dues of my clients, offered a year on me to many detractors, gave away rally fees to allow the curious a chance to have the same experience as me. It was blissful. I lived, ate, breathed WB. I promoted, recruited, supported, encouraged new members daily.
BUTI FLIP FLOPPED
Once I got out of my region I realized there was a much bigger world out there. The club was out there too. Unfortunately what I saw did not please me. How my dues was being spent did not please me. I voted with the only real vote listened to, my dues. Now a year later, many are doing the same(some that even called me a quitter when I did it).


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Old 02-13-2011, 07:46 AM   #52
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Now you are an expert at Roberts Rules too? I never have seen anyone straighten you out on the way you have interpreted that very book you are now an expert of? I thought Bob is short for Robert and it was the very book you wrote.


Each of us on the committee was required to study and become familiar with RONR. It was referenced in almost every conference and debated between us. The Bylaws follow that book, you can buy in in any book store for $15, 700 pages.

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I don't believe delegates should accept a change on the constitution that their unit has not approved of without going back to their units and having a unit discussion and vote. I don't want one person guessing what my choices or the choices for an entire unit are. We have been assured that there will be unknown variables introduced. The consequences of a variance could be greater than would be perceived at first blush. There is an advantage of seeking the counsel of many minds and considering any and all effects of changes and not making hasty decisions at the delegates meeting. I would think a delegate would want to carry his unit's vote forward rather than have the singular responsibility of making decisions for the entire unit.
Carol the delegate for each unit is chosen or voted to specifically act as its authorized representative at the June delegates meeting. This is commonly understood in parliamentary law.

The term delegate, or house of representatives is often applied to distinguish the voting body of delegates from large numbers of other members of the club. A delegate is free to vote as he/she sees fit on questions at the meeting, unless instructed otherwise.

An information packet will go out to the units for their delegates to explain this in more detail.

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1M1V is a good practice to impliment.
Yes, but you're advocating delaying the approval in June, you have been demanding and fighting for change in this club for years, now is the time to see it begin.




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Old 02-13-2011, 08:17 PM   #53
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If I read the current constitution correctly, the IBT must approve this proposed amendment BEFORE it can be presented to the units.

The next IBT meeting is in June.

That means our units will get the proposed amendment and the opinion of CBL AFTER the International. The delegates in Sedalia should have a chance to bring unit votes forward.

I think we have plenty of time to review the proposal!
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Old 02-13-2011, 08:34 PM   #54
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Re: The Most Dangerous Room in the Club

The Masque of Anarchy
by Percy Bysshe Shelley

Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number,
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many they are few.

Stand ye calm and resolute,
Like a forest close and mute,
With folded arms and looks which are
Weapons of unvanquished war.

And if then the tyrants dare,
Let them ride among you there,
Slash, and stab, and maim and hew,
What they like, that let them do.

With folded arms and steady eyes,
And little fear, and less surprise
Look upon them as they slay
Till their rage has died away.

Then they will return with shame
To the place from which they came,
And the blood thus shed will speak
In hot blushes on their cheek.

Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number,
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many they are few.

Shelley - The Mask of Anarchy
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Old 02-13-2011, 08:36 PM   #55
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Well said!
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Old 02-13-2011, 08:39 PM   #56
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If I read the current constitution correctly, the IBT must approve this proposed amendment BEFORE it can be presented to the units.

The next IBT meeting is in June.

That means our units will get the proposed amendment and the opinion of CBL AFTER the International. The delegates in Sedalia should have a chance to bring unit votes forward.

I think we have plenty of time to review the proposal!
Amendments to the constitution do not go through the IBT for approval.
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Old 02-13-2011, 09:23 PM   #57
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proposed amendment(s) may be submitted in writing by any chartered unit, by the Board of Trustees and by the International President.

In this instance it will be the IP
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Old 02-14-2011, 06:16 AM   #58
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Section 2 can be interpreted to allow that, but it removes the IBT from the process. I have spoken with IBT members who believe the June IBT is the next step.

That would give the Units time to discuss, give input to their RP and all issues could be discussed fully. Then we could discuss it again in the Fall, at the Unit level.

Slow? Shouldn't it be? We are changing the entire structure of an organization with 5000 owners (closer to 9000 with spouses / significant others). Acting on a single change SHOULD be fast. Wholesale replacement...proceed slowly!

My opinion.
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Old 02-14-2011, 06:53 AM   #59
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Section 2 can be interpreted to allow that, but it removes the IBT from the process. I have spoken with IBT members who believe the June IBT is the next step.
Very interesting that there doesn't even seem to be unanimity within the IBT. I talked with my region president after the Mid Winter IBT meeting and learned that the region presidents were just as much in the dark as the rest of us.

This gets back to an earlier comment I made, that "the IBT" is routinely beaten up on these forums, but the big divide is not between the IBT and the membership, but between the Executive Committee and the IBT.
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:30 AM   #60
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I was told that other than the committee, the only people to see the revised constitution is the EC.

Bill
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