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Old 03-29-2011, 03:42 PM   #501
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We aren't limited to this venue. We can contact other units by e-mail or phone. W do have contact information available to us.
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:44 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by Nuvite-F View Post
Please elucidate. As I understand it, under the proposed constitution,

1. The IBT retains sole authority over the Bylaws (as they have now), and

2. The Delegates no longer exist.
.
The proposed constitution contains the language suggested in Roberts regarding Bylaws. However, it is a proposal and if the Delegates want to propose language to modify the article they will have the opportunity. The article can be deliberated and modified at that time.

While currently the Delegates attend the Delegates meeting and may comment on motions in the seminar, they have no input other than the vote on the nominating committees slate or a vote if there is a proposed amendment to the constitution. If we go to a 1M1V on the nominees for International office and constitutional amendments the delegates current role, aside from the seminar where any member may comment, would no longer exist. Deliberations on proposed amendments and other issues that might be placed on the caucus agenda would take place in a members caucus and within units and in forums such as this. The originator of any amendment would/should be guided in the structure of their final amendment by such discussion before the membership would vote upon it.

The issue of Bylaw modification is a serious one and deserves serious thought as to how it would be implemented. However, through time having such a mechanism in the Bylaws allows for a faster response to a need for change. Items placed in constitutions are, rightly so, much more difficult to alter for the benefit of the membership.

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Old 03-29-2011, 04:14 PM   #503
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I am going to support the new constitution and will ask our unit to vote for it. One thing to remember that WBCCI is a social club with only about 6000 members. It is not going to grow back to 30000 no matter what is done. It is cheap to belong to.
And totally optional. So I do not think this document has a enough importance to get upset over.
I could have lived fine with the old document. I like the new one a little better. I guess I am old fashioned, but I like the Electorial College and was okay with delegates. But for the few members we have the 1member 1 vote policy is fine.
Hey, it is not the health care package. Its fine. It can and will be amended.
I do not like what I understand as Forrests amendment. I prefer the 1m1v to delegates having to pass or ratify what the IBT decides.
How everbody can get so worked up about $15 for the local club or MAL is simply beyond my comprehension.
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Old 03-29-2011, 06:22 PM   #504
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Tom (BugDoc)

My post earlier today (#489) did not address any of the issues. I only commented on the need for change and made a plea for civil discourse.
The tone and content of the other posts have been great. It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

My thanks to the members of the committee who I know spent considerable time on this project as well as absorbing more than a few bucks on phone bills and mileage. The true spirit of volunteerism is alive and well and deserves respect, even if one does not agree with their product.

Ron
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Old 03-29-2011, 09:09 PM   #505
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Matt: I’ll try to respond to each of your 6 points.
1. We believe there will be equal or more opportunity for discussion under the proposal. Units will be able to discuss, then there will be open discussion at the Members’ Caucus (and through forums like this) before the vote takes place.
2. Simply adding MAL votes does not truly represent direct member voting. Our current representative system allows delegates to cast votes according to their total Unit membership, if the delegate attends the International rally. Fewer Units have attended in recent years and travel distances have prevented some Units from casting any votes at the last two or three delegates meetings. Should it still be necessary to go to a rally to vote?
3. Some members will agree and others will not. We chose to move the issue to the Bylaws.
4.The total votes at IBT will be defined when the Bylaws set the number of Areas. We reduced the number of votes held by the EC by 2 to maintain the balance of power with the Areas, however many areas are finally established.
5. The role of the Nominating Committee is the subject of widely diverse views. We have tried to meet some key concerns.
6. The IBT meeting in July can be held using electronic means at very little cost. “Meeting” will no longer automatically mean “gathering”.
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Old 03-29-2011, 09:20 PM   #506
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Kerry,

If the July meeting is held using electronic means, will members be able to comment on the agenda or only able to listen?

Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerrbett View Post
Matt: I’ll try to respond to each of your 6 points.
1. We believe there will be equal or more opportunity for discussion under the proposal. Units will be able to discuss, then there will be open discussion at the Members’ Caucus (and through forums like this) before the vote takes place.
2. Simply adding MAL votes does not truly represent direct member voting. Our current representative system allows delegates to cast votes according to their total Unit membership, if the delegate attends the International rally. Fewer Units have attended in recent years and travel distances have prevented some Units from casting any votes at the last two or three delegates meetings. Should it still be necessary to go to a rally to vote?
3. Some members will agree and others will not. We chose to move the issue to the Bylaws.
4.The total votes at IBT will be defined when the Bylaws set the number of Areas. We reduced the number of votes held by the EC by 2 to maintain the balance of power with the Areas, however many areas are finally established.
5. The role of the Nominating Committee is the subject of widely diverse views. We have tried to meet some key concerns.
6. The IBT meeting in July can be held using electronic means at very little cost. “Meeting” will no longer automatically mean “gathering”.
Cheers,
Kerry
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Old 03-30-2011, 05:16 AM   #507
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Thanks for the feedback, Kerry.

I will be holding 3 information sessions at our April Rally. Feedback from my unit to come!
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Old 03-30-2011, 06:18 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by RonH View Post
Tom (BugDoc)

My post earlier today (#489) did not address any of the issues. I only commented on the need for change and made a plea for civil discourse.
The tone and content of the other posts have been great. It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

My thanks to the members of the committee who I know spent considerable time on this project as well as absorbing more than a few bucks on phone bills and mileage. The true spirit of volunteerism is alive and well and deserves respect, even if one does not agree with their product.

Ron
ok, Ron fair enough, if everyone doesn't understand the doc it is difficult to make an informed decision.

But with the majority (3) of the committee herein now addressing any concerns, miss understanding or underlying reasoning for changes we propose in the Revision, let's discuss them here and now.



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Old 03-30-2011, 07:15 AM   #509
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OK Bob & other committee members,

I don't want to be antagonistic, but I really didn't get an adequate response to my previous inquiry. I really feel it can come back to really bite us hard.

Article XVI sec 2.

Headquarters shall distribute copies to the Presidents of all chartered Units by April 1 (90 days prior to the Delegates Meeting to which such proposed amendment(s) are to be presented, in order to give the units ample time to vote and instruct their Delegates.

If that document isn't in my email or my mailbox tomorrow, we are done. Right? If not, why?

In the recent past, motions have been dismissed for far less reasons.
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:44 AM   #510
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Dan

Are you stating that these documents MUST be out by April 1st as a point of the existing constitution or bylaws, in which case you may have a point, or are you assuming this IP will take the dictatorial stance of past Presidents?

If you can not support you position by presenting the point of order you are referring to give the man a chance. The chairman of the standing Constitution and Bylaws Committee has delayed this as much as he possibly could and written a negative report but he no longer hold Supreme Power.

If you are correct and April first is missed your point will be accomplished by default.
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:06 AM   #511
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...But with the majority (3) of the committee herein now addressing any concerns, miss understanding or underlying reasoning for changes we propose in the Revision, let's discuss them here and now.
Is there to be provision for online discussion aside from Air Forums? Putting all our eggs in one basket is not fail safe. Case in point, depending upon the responses, especially of the individuals that post inappropriately violating forum ethics, this and all the other threads can easily and often are rendered inaccessable. This is not the venue but the last remaining bastion for WBCCI members to gather online. We need to have a dedicated place for WBCCI members to exchange information. To be fair to AIR moderators this IS neither the time nor place to handle the politics of our club.

So my concern in this regard is two fold. One is for the immediate project of revision discussion and the second is, when will WBCCI provide a forum for its members, and should that be included in the revision document?

Also if any revision committee member would address my earlier posts titled by article on the revision, I would appreciate it.
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:11 AM   #512
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Sorry if I am not being clear. Let me try again.

Our present constitution requires me as Unit President to have the documents of amendment 90 days prior to the meeting. This is stated as April 1. This is to allow me to have ample time to share with my unit. This is not "my" rule or recommendation. It is our current constitution.

Regardless of who's fault it is, if this deadline is not met, per our own constitution the motions will be invalid. Again, not my choice, but that's the constitution.

President Norm demonstrated that adherence to the constitution is paramount at the mid-winters this year. Again, I didn't like his decision, but I understand it. In fact, I thanked him for a good job.

More recently, a constitutional amendment brought forth by a unit in Region 4 was thrown out due to a minor constitutional requirement error. This action was driven by the C&BL Chair I believe. Once again, I thought the decision was a stretch, but it did have good footing.

Now, it appears that we are going to willfully miss a critical deadline. Are we suppose to believe that this fact will not be brought up in July? Especially when the C&BL committee that has not recommended the motions will be seated next to the President?

The committee has worked too hard for this to happen. Please explain to me why I'm wrong.
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:36 AM   #513
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Your point is very clear now and very troublesome.

Per my conversation, just now, with Headquarters the packet will go out to unit Presidents TODAY. That should insure a post mark in March.

Please save your envelope.
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:41 AM   #514
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Areas of concern

Committee Members,

Many of the problems that have been of concern to most members, reported in the 2020 report, etc... in the WBCCI normally fall under one of three areas, spending, rigidness and control of information to the general membership. Based on those areas of concern, I have the following questions about where in the proposed “New Constitution” these areas are covered. I read the proposed “New Constitution” but maybe missed where they were covered. Since they have been on the forefront of many discussions, I’m sure they are covered somewhere and I must have missed them or misunderstood how they are fixed in the proposed “New Constitution”.

In the current WBCCI Constitution the budget/spending (how many $$$ the IBT/EC7 gets for travel) is controlled by the IBT of which many people have had problems with over the years, how will the reining in of this power to give themselves travel dollars, lifetime memberships, banquets, etc.. be address in the “New Constitution” if passed in its current form?

Many of the perceived problems with the WBCCI (Military style ceremonies openings, rules on dress, flags, more “relaxed” atmosphere, etc…) are within the WBCCI “By-Laws”. How will the “New Constitution” allow the general membership more control over the areas?

How will the “New Constitution” give the membership more say in what can and cannot be published in the Blue Beret and other type of information of club concern getting out to the general membership?

Since the “New Constitution” says the dates for the “International Rally” can be changed, who determines these dates?

I look forward to seeing your answers to the areas of concern for many WBCCI members.
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:16 AM   #515
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Wheel Interested: Sadly, WBCCI is without its own online forum as you all know. That is not a constitutional issue. We are setting up a Gmail account to which members can send questions and to which we will respond. From questions that we receive we will compile FAQs that will be posted on WBCCI.ORG along with all of the documents. I am advised that HQ will have the docs posted later this week. We are doing what we can with what we have available to us.

Kerry
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:19 AM   #516
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Paul

Through your on personnel attempts you know full well none of the problems you mention above can be accomplished through the current Constitution. Have you no faith in the voice of the membership if granted 1M 1V.

Yes we can remain hamstrung, perpetually complaining, and financially drained or we can try something new.

Personnel I would have preferred to ride in with my 50 caliber mounted on the back of my Toyota and cleaned house, but that doesn't seam to be working in Libya. Reform often can not be accomplished with a single stroke.

The membership has repeatably asked for a means of input in the governance of the Club. Only time will tell if they get such an avenue will they use it effectively. Give them the chance.

If they get the chance and don't use it effectively I trust neither of us will be writing checks much longer.
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:20 AM   #517
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Please be aware that Airforums has offered to host an online private WBCCI forum. Why recreate the wheel?

As stated, this really isn't a constitutional concern. It is something to keep in mind though.
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:24 AM   #518
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Ron

As another member of the Revision Committee I would like to also jump into the discussion of the proposed constitution, not "new constitution", something none of us could do under Roberts Rules during the deliberations.

Tom
Welcome, Tom - and thanks for posting. We are glad to have you share your experience and rationale with the Forum.

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Old 03-30-2011, 09:31 AM   #519
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DanB

2/3 of the membership has e mail. Those address are available and can be sorted by unit. If any unit President want to use them as a means of accelerating the dissemination information let me know via a PM.
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Old 03-30-2011, 10:06 AM   #520
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I may have missed it when I was traveling without WiFi access, but is there a link up yet to the proposed documents? I just looked on the WBCCI website and couldn't fint it as yet.

Thanks.
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