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Old 03-25-2011, 05:44 PM   #441
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Just skimmed through this document quickly, but 2 items caught my attention.

Article VI section 3 does NOT appear to eliminate the MAL surcharge.
While I believe unit membership should be encouraged, I don't believe there should be a penalty for choosing not to belong to a unit


Article XIV sect 2 and 3.

These appear to give the nominating committee both the power to decide who can run and to rank them according to their feelings on their qualification

I believe anyone who is a member should have the right to run, It is up to the candidate to convince us of his qualifications and experience in his campaign for office.
Under no circumstances should the committee be allowed to "grade" them

I am sure there are other things too, but these are the ones I feel strongly about5 at this point
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Old 03-25-2011, 06:40 PM   #442
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Don S.'s Recommendations Conclusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by HowieE View Post
All that read this have to remember that Don Schaffer has a personnel addenda that does not always reflect the wishes of the membership and has presented this recommendation without the record of the committees vote on this. I would look upon this so called recommendation of the Constitution Committee with greater respect if it were presented over the signatures of the complete committee.


As Delegates to the 2011 Annual Delegate’s Meeting you will probably receive a large amount of electronic and possible mail concerning whether or not to adopt this new Constitution. It is a HUGE decision that you have and it is extremely important in the direction WBCCI will take. I can only recommend that you consider all the input you receive and evaluate it in the light of what you consider to be the best for our Club. Be very careful of opinions from outside of your Unit except for the recommendations of your Region Officers. Stick to the facts. If the pattern of the last six (6) years is again put into place, you will receive many negative comments from outside your Unit concerning the Club organization and personalities will likewise pictured in a negative vain. These are certainly not in line with the present Code of Ethics as it will be an effort to cloud the facts. We now have a Constitution that guarantees majority rule and the proposed one may very well remove that guarantee! Again, it is a decision that will most definitely have a huge effect on the Club for years and I urge you to carefully consider the impact that your choices will have on our future. And PLEASE be sure that your voice is heard and your vote is counted at this meeting.
Very respectfully submitted,
Don Shafer,

Except for the middle paranoid hysteria inducing warnings about being careful of others, which come off sounding rather snarky to me, I thought the recommendations and clarifications were drawn well and very insightful. I would agree on more than a few of the points Don S. illustrated. What is a shame is that the leadship forum was not utilized and was chosen to be closed down when we as members could have been having the benefit of excellent discertation and mentoring such as Don Shafer has shown to be well within his auspices and capacity to give. Think of what could have culminated had we built a system of change together. And yet for some reason there has to be a channel of command and more than one form of dues to be paid before one can approach the high places unfortunately. I found the recommendations very informative and an amazingly interesting read. I hope all of you take the time to go over it in its entirety. But what I don't understand is why instead of helping membership work towards their goals, consultation is withheld and a halt put to the works in the final hour. All this time waiting could have been used trying to refine and find a suitable path to make the desired changes. This appears to be the usual method of operation and limiter in orders of new business between the IBT/EC and members trying to further their initiatives if unsupported by the leadership.
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Old 03-25-2011, 07:45 PM   #443
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Just for easier reading, here is the Revision Committee's Constitution as it might be if it were adopted without being amended or revised. This is based on an earlier copy, but LI Pets says that it has not been changed. So, I believe it to be accurate.
There are several differences between the two documents.
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Old 03-25-2011, 08:08 PM   #444
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I never thought I'd see the day when I agree with Don S. on a subject.

When I started reading the "Constitution Re-Write" and saw "the Airstream RV Association" in Sec.1, I knew it would be down hill from there and it was. I thank all those that worked hard on it, put in the time and tried the best they could, but I think Don S. is spot on almost with every comment made about the new Constitution. "TOO MUCH, TOO BIG, NO INPUT, NO TIME". I did find it interesting that he even pointed out the very committee that was formed to write this document was in "violation" of our current By-Laws!

This thing has problems, everyone knew that it would and there were hopes that small changes could be made at the delegates meeting to make it work. In it's current state, there's just not enough to work with and by the time all the changes were made you still would end up with something that needed to be fixed.

Plus add to that, this new Constitution does nothing to fix the "real" problems with the club. If you really want to fix the club, past the motion from the Denver Unit which will give more control over the "By-Laws" to the general membership, that's were the real meat of the problem is located.

Don S.if you are reading, "HIGH-FIVE", you got it right this time!

For once, I hope they listen to old Don S. and vote this thing down.
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Old 03-25-2011, 08:26 PM   #445
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The CBL committee by Don Shafer has taken it upon himself to release not only his report but an unofficial copy of the constitution to all region presidents circumventing the Executive Committee and established process.

The release of the proposed revision should have been under the authorization of the IP after HQ mailed an official package of documents to the region pres.

It would appear that Mr. Shafer believes he is running WBCCI.
Moreover, it speaks volumes about the tone of the CBL report replete with gross miss statements of fact, RONR & opinions.
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Old 03-25-2011, 08:34 PM   #446
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Do the actual copies differ Bob or is it the early release that you are finding a source of contention? What inaccuracies do you find in his recommendation? Of course he may not agree but has he misrepresented any information? Can you be specific? Will the others on the revision committee be making any statements? And do you believe the IP and Don S. have worked independently of one another in regard to the new constitution? What do we need to know to best make our way through contradictory information?
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Old 03-25-2011, 08:45 PM   #447
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Thanks posting this document and to every one for all the comments, concerns and critiques over the last few months. How this will play out will be quit interesting.
I'll attempt to digest this on the 2 hour drive to our Unit Luncheon tomorrow.
I wonder how many there have been paying attention to the ongoing drama?

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Old 03-25-2011, 08:47 PM   #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
Do the actual copies differ Bob or is it the early release that you are finding a source of contention? What inaccuracies do you find in his recommendation?
Too many, perhaps most
Quote:
Of course he may not agree but has he misrepresented any information?
absolutely

Quote:
Can you be specific?
See below

Quote:
Will the others on the revision committee be making any statements?
I seriously doubt it.

Quote:
And do you believe the IP and Don S. have worked independently of one another in regard to the new constitution?
Neither worked on it, if you mean did they work on the CBL report, no

Quote:
What do we need to know to best make our way through contradictory information?
Read Kerry's guide, email the Revision committee's new email where questions will be answered by several of us developing an FAQ.

Certain committee members will take phone calls.

Sure the report can be picked apart line by line but to what end.

The naysayers will hang on every word including those who complained about his thinking in the past.

Most should see the bias of an individual that was not included in a task.

The committee will rely on the facts and not get into a debate about the CBL opinion.
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Old 03-25-2011, 08:53 PM   #449
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Will the packet give units an idea of how to approach making changes systematically and how the unit delegate should be prepared to present and deliberate with the other delegates at the meeting? There will be a power point presentation also? Just from the time it takes to examine these documents I can imagine you all have worked very long and very hard on this revision and there are a lot of changes that we have been asking for as you have previously mentioned. Even though its release was a matter of some days early I don't think we will be able to know what the final revision will look like until the delegates assemble and redraft or accept or refute it. Or will there be provision to work on it collectively electronically in advance?
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Old 03-25-2011, 09:54 PM   #450
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I agree that there is far too little time to debug this thing. I will strongly advise my unit to turn it down cold. There are too many hidden traps that can not be worked out in time.

Perhaps in another year a workable draft will be in place.
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Old 03-25-2011, 10:08 PM   #451
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There are several differences between the two documents.
But, LI Pets wrote that the Revision Committee's Constitution wasn't changed? If there are differences who made them?
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Old 03-25-2011, 10:55 PM   #452
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Thumbs down Different logic, same conclusion

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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
The naysayers will hang on every word including those who complained about his thinking in the past.
Some of Chairman Shafer's logic we may not agree with, but that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't arrive at the same conclusion.

Especially considering that 1M1V was the raison d'ętre for "direct voting." Yet, Members At Large (MAL) are still left without a vote. Unless I'm misreading the document. So I'll quote the revised constitution, Article VI, Section 3, "A MAL shall possess all the rights and privileges of the club, except the right to vote or hold office in a Unit or Area."

Now, I've raised this point with LI Pets previously, and he hasn't said otherwise. A MAL has NO VOTE. If the Revision Committee wanted them to have a vote, then it would be written in a manner that makes it clear that they do. So, perhaps it might have been worded: A MAL shall possess all the rights and privileges of the club, including the right to vote, but not to hold office in a Unit or Area. Unfortunately, that is NOT the wording.

Yet, giving MAL a vote is the only thing that justifies direct voting because that is the ONLY way a MAL would be able to vote. Without that correlation there is almost no point in adopting the revised constitution.

Ironically, Chairman Shafer is right in observing that there is nothing to prohibit a MAL from holding an International office, such as President, VP, Treasurer, Secretary. But would they then be a voting member of the board? Without a provision to allow a MAL to vote how can they? So, the problem is compounded, and this is just one example of how the Revised Constitution fails.
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Old 03-25-2011, 11:07 PM   #453
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OK, my quick read was too quick!

We have only weeks to develop specific proposed changes OR skip another year with no change.

The delegates have the option of completely re-writing each article. Unfortunately, that isn't practical. The question is, can we agree on a few simple changes to the existing Constitution to address some of the most pressing issues. Keep the items we like from the current Constitution and adopt / revise the proposed changes to improve the document.

This IS a chance to make changes or to do exactly what we have done in prior years.

How about agreeing on a few simple changes and putting these forward as the "perfected" revision?
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Old 03-25-2011, 11:29 PM   #454
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There is something!

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We have only weeks to develop specific proposed changes OR skip another year with no change...This IS a chance to make changes or to do exactly what we have done in prior years... How about agreeing on a few simple changes and putting these forward as the "perfected" revision?
There is the Denver Colorado Unit Amendment, what just about everyone refers to as "Forrest's Motion." There is a separate thread on that.

As for tweaking the Revised Constitution, that can now only be done by the Delegates at the Annual Meeting. As others have stated, it is very unlikely they could make and agree on all the changes needed to perfect the document. It is a huge task and asking them to do it in one session seems impossible and ill advised to me. I say this from having been a delegate. Do you really want to pressure a hundred or so delegates to perfect something through the motion to amend process in just one sitting (or even in two or three) considering that the document must be approved by majority vote Article by Article, Section by Section?

Remember, the revised constitution has to pass by a 2/3 majority. That in itself is difficult for just one item. There will be other items on the agenda as well, voting to elect officers and Motion 1 for instance.
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Old 03-25-2011, 11:59 PM   #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
The CBL committee by Don Shafer has taken it upon himself to release not only his report but an unofficial copy of the constitution to all region presidents circumventing the Executive Committee and established process.
The Executive Committee plays no part in the release of the C&BC Report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
The release of the proposed revision should have been under the authorization of the IP after HQ mailed an official package of documents to the region pres.
Actually, the IP released the proposed revision when he sent it to HQ and from there to the C&BC. Afterall, that revision was the final draft (although you've been saying there is just the one draft).

Yes, it would appear that Chairman Shafer usurped HQ. His report and the proposed revision were supposed to be sent out by the Corporate Manager. To quote Article XVI, Section 3, "Headquarters shall submit copies of this Constitution and Bylaws Committee report to the Unit Presidents with the copies of the proposed amendment(s) distributed in accordance with Sections 1 and 2 of this article." So, are you going to file a grievance?

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It would appear that Mr. Shafer believes he is running WBCCI.
He probably is.
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Old 03-26-2011, 04:02 AM   #456
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While Don S. Does make a some valid points I see it as for the most part as nothing more than a defense of the the " We have always done it this way mindset"
I.E. We need the grievance system. ( might need to kick some one out)
We need the present voting system.
We need all these officers.
The nominating committee is good (because otherwise multiple people may actually have to CAMPAIGN for office.)
WE should take years to accomplish any changes..
I am not sure whether he has a case for him or one of his to be on the committee but I am glad he wasn't.
All I see is a defense of a system that does not work well
It could be taken apart piece by piece here, but I am not sure what it would accomplish.
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Old 03-26-2011, 05:42 AM   #457
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In a vacuum

Bob,

I guess, since I agree with Don S. I’m one of the “naysayers” you talk about. This thing has been riddled with problems since day one and even Don S. points that out. I’m sorry you don’t like, don’t want to hear and will not accept the fact that it’s true, but it is.

But for fun, let’s just take everything you say, think and feel to be true from day one, the committee was formed correctly, you looked for input from the entire membership, etc.., etc.., etc.. Anyone that has responded to RFI/RFP’s for the Federal Government in the past would see automatically, this document was created in a vacuum. I’m not trying to offend you or the committee, yet trying to educate you on the process of which something like this is written. Since you will never listen to me, I would suggest you go get a book on writing RFI’s and RFP’s, work with someone from say a Lockheed, SAIC, General Dynamics or Northrop Grumman that has worked on different writing teams within that organization (outline, draft, pink, red, gold) for a couple of years and you may begin to understand what I’m talking about.

May I ask, did you have an outline team? Draft? Pink? Red? Gold? Lockdown final document? Did each one of those teams release certain writers from the team to then bring in others that had not seen the document in the past, did you bring in people that had nothing to do with the writing for review in the different stages? If you had, things like “MAL voting” would be far clearer than what it is or is not. I have to agree with Forrest, the way I read it, it appears they do not get to vote.

Many would say the document that has been presented would be a “rough draft” and is nowhere near ready. If you would like, I can write-up a summary of problems I see, but it will look a bunch like Don S. which will then again make me a “naysayer” and all I would have done would be to waste a bunch of time doing so.

You’re baby is not ugly; it’s just not ready for a beauty contest and there’s no way to make it pretty enough to where I would want it representing the club.
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Old 03-26-2011, 06:35 AM   #458
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I think several are making comments way too quickly (knee jerk reactions) without taking the time to fully absorb and study this unofficial copy of the Revision without the accompanying documents to be released by HQ next week..


Civility aside, five people busted their collective butts doing this on a voluntary basis, have a little respect at least for the effort even if you don’t like it or fully understand the contents yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pahaska View Post
I agree that there is far too little time to debug this thing.
John you have over 100 days! It takes about a half an hour to read this the first time.

Highlight the areas of concern ask questions, make suggestions.

How many of the 16 Articles concern you? 3, 6, 10

If you have questions or don’t understand the language in a sec. use the new email to ask your questions, the committee will address them.

If it can’t be done in 100 days, a year isn’t going to help.
………………

A MAL shall possess all the rights and privileges of the club, except the right to vote or hold office in a Unit or Area

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Yet, Members At Large (MAL) are still left without a vote. Unless I'm misreading the document. So I'll quote the revised constitution, Article VI, Section 3, "A MAL shall possess all the rights and privileges of the club, except the right to vote or hold office in a Unit or Area."
Now, I've raised this point with LI Pets previously, and he hasn't said otherwise.
Forest yes you’re misreading that sec.
As well as you Paul

All the rights include the right to vote. 1M1V

However, they may not vote or hold office in a unit or area ( region) because they don’t belong to one.

…………

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
But, LI Pets wrote that the Revision Committee's Constitution wasn't changed? If there are differences who made them?
Sorry, I don't follow you and or azflycaster on that comment.


……………………..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
It is a huge task and asking them to do it in one session seems impossible and ill advised to me.
There will be two.

……………

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
The CBL committee by Don Shafer has taken it upon himself to release not only his report but an unofficial copy of the constitution to all region presidents circumventing the Executive Committee and established process.

The Executive Committee plays no part in the release of the C&BC Report.
Not sure I agree.

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
The release of the proposed revision should have been under the authorization of the IP after HQ mailed an official package of documents to the region pres.
Actually, the IP released the proposed revision when he sent it to HQ and from there to the C&BC. Afterall, that revision was the final draft (although you've been saying there is just the one draft).
We disagree on that point also.
Forest there is one Revision (draft).

Quote:
Yes, it would appear that Chairman Shafer usurped HQ. His report and the proposed revision were supposed to be sent out by the Corporate Manager. To quote Article XVI, Section 3, "Headquarters shall submit copies of this Constitution and Bylaws Committee report to the Unit Presidents with the copies of the proposed amendment(s) distributed in accordance with Sections 1 and 2 of this article." So, are you going to file a grievance? .
Since he loves the E&GC so much and his actions are bringing disharmony someone should.

If it were up to me I’d fire him or request his resignation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
It would appear that Mr. Shafer believes he is running WBCCI.
He probably is.
He had his turn, he left the club in great shape.
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Old 03-26-2011, 06:45 AM   #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickDavis View Post
While Don S. Does make a some valid points I see it as for the most part as nothing more than a defense of the the " We have always done it this way mindset"
I.E. We need the grievance system. ( might need to kick some one out)
We need the present voting system.
We need all these officers.
The nominating committee is good (because otherwise multiple people may actually have to CAMPAIGN for office.)
WE should take years to accomplish any changes..
I am not sure whether he has a case for him or one of his to be on the committee but I am glad he wasn't.
All I see is a defense of a system that does not work well
It could be taken apart piece by piece here, but I am not sure what it would accomplish.


Elitism may refer to situations in which an individual assumes special privileges and responsibilities in the hope that this arrangement will benefit themselves. At times, elitism is closely related to social class.
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Old 03-26-2011, 07:27 AM   #460
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We also have at our disposal the capability to also make a list of holes that need to be shored up from legitimate weaknesses that have been pointed out by Don S. As said before there may be plenty of differences of opinion between his recommendation and that of many other individuals, but he also cites chapter and verse, inconsistencies and problematic or ineffectual portions, that can benefit from his criticism and proof reading of the draft. This is a process and not a vote. Consider it brainstorming. You do not have to be hung up on the thumbs up or down as much as it would be wise to use all the information that was offered to strengthen, define and better integrate the changes that most would like to continue to make.

I agree with Forrest about the likihood of getting this done by and on the currently proposed schedule. The process of refining that Rideair brought out can still be employed and now we have the first real bit to sink our teeth into. Don S.'s input should be welcome "testing" in that he gave detailed reasoning to support his findings. Take them for what they are worth and roll up your sleeves rather than sitting back on laurels and start re-working to improve it rather than booing cheering and otherwise refusing to see the value of having a "second opinion" from which to build upon. It isn't over. This release was not the signal of the end but the heralding of the beginning, I remind you. A working process of assimilating and redrafting needs to be up and going full speed asap if we are to make headway and judicious use of our time. Off the bench, this is no spectator sport! You're not done yet. Who better to be in the remix than the original committee members who compiled this revision?
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