View Poll Results: Do you support the WBCCI's current plans to rebadge an SOB Class "A" motor home as an
Yes, I do support this. 26 10.61%
No, I do not support this. 219 89.39%
Voters: 245. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-22-2007, 01:02 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by rickandsandi
OK, here is a question either I missed or has not yet been posted; what the heck does Thor have to do with WBCCI? Is the far reaching hand of the Board of Directors so long that it can infiltrate a private organization? If so, to who's benefit? Not mine thats for sure. Yes, I understand there are all sorts of allinaces between Airstream and the club but come on.
It was my understanding that th IBT approached Airstream and Thor about the re-badging issue - not the other way around. I think it's important to note that Thor is not the evil-doer in this instance, but rather just the facilitator.

We should not loose site that this entire issue was brought on by our leadership, the members if the IBT, and not Thor.
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Old 01-22-2007, 01:06 PM   #62
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Thor just wants to sell MoHos and the AS badge gets them a couple of xtra dollars.
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Old 01-22-2007, 01:23 PM   #63
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Bingo...
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Old 01-22-2007, 01:25 PM   #64
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How much extra dollars will it bring to Thor? If Four Winds dealers are allowed to put the Airstream Edition badge on anything they have on their lots, what fee will the dealer pay for the badging and how much will go into Airstream's coffers and how much will go directly to Thor's bottom line?

If I am Joe Blow and I see a real nice Four Winds motor home and a Airstream Edition badged MOHO on the Four Winds' lot and tell the sales man I like the features, carpet color or whatever on the Four Winds better than that of the Airstream Edition, but I really wanted the Airstream name, why wouldn't he say, "Well if you really want an Airstream Edition so you can join the WBCCI, we can put the badges on that Four Winds branded model for another $500." OR, if you are really serious , we have to charge you $500, but if you buy today I can give you an extra $500 for your trade in.

And a really savy WBCCI officer can go to a Four Winds dealer at the end of the model year and pick out a carry over MOHO from last year and get a super discounted deal and for just a mear $500 more (or whatever the branding cost) get into an unused Airstream Edition motor home and stay in the WBCCI at great savings. Seems he/she would have cheated the club and save a bundle in the process!
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Old 01-22-2007, 01:28 PM   #65
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Zero will go to Airstream. As was mentioned many times at the IBT, these SOB MOHOs are not Airstreams.
They would be cheating the club in more ways than one...
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:19 PM   #66
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It doesn't help AS at all. It will hurt them in the long run.

But they work for Thor.

Thor benefits, selfish members of the IBT benefit (but will burn in Wallyhell) and WBCCI members suffer.
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:24 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by mistral blue
It doesn't help AS at all. It will hurt them in the long run.

But they work for Thor.

Thor benefits, selfish members of the IBT benefit (but will burn in Wallyhell) and WBCCI members suffer.
Only if it passes...it's not a done deal until the members vote!

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Old 01-22-2007, 02:30 PM   #68
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Only if it passes...it's not a done deal until the members vote!

Shari
Can't see how this would ever pass.....as long as all the facts are out and there is no amendment to the motion to try to confuse the delegates.
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:38 PM   #69
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:43 PM   #70
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Can't see how this would ever pass.....as long as all the facts are out and there is no amendment to the motion to confuse the delegates.
Here's how the re-badging will pass - Region Presidents and Officers will lean on Unit Presidents and officers to vote their way. The body politik (us) must lean back to kill the re-badging. This is how the name was saved last year. It was a grass roots effort from the bottom up.

However, I see this as being a tougher battle than the name change. I think we have a good chance in my Unit - as most are trailerites with a few B-Vans thrown in. Only problem is I see most having the same opinion as my wife - "who cares -- no big deal, let 'em buy their Class A's , doesn't effect me one way or the other."
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:45 PM   #71
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Only problem is I see most having the same opinion as my wife - "who cares -- no big deal, let 'em buy their Class A's , doesn't effect me one way or the other."
That's the scary "unknown" factor. I'm afraid there are a lot of people out there like this...good thing you hold the vote!

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Old 01-22-2007, 02:59 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micsupply
Here's how the re-badging will pass - Region Presidents and Officers will lean on Unit Presidents and officers to vote their way. The body politik (us) must lean back to kill the re-badging. This is how the name was saved last year. It was a grass roots effort from the bottom up.

However, I see this as being a tougher battle than the name change. I think we have a good chance in my Unit - as most are trailerites with a few B-Vans thrown in. Only problem is I see most having the same opinion as my wife - "who cares -- no big deal, let 'em buy their Class A's , doesn't effect me one way or the other."
I agree strongly with this idea. This is not cut and dried since this affects local membership, and it will come down to a friendship level. You will have all the motorhome folks in a local unit asking for support from the trailer folk, and the issue will be "help us remain members".

That in itself will be the real battlegrounds. How do many of these people who have been friends for 20 years or more turn their backs on their friends?

The WBCCI PR machine will not talk about alternatives. It will be geared towards telling folks that they will be gone if this change isn't approved. I know my former unit members well enough that they will probably vote for this change without looking at the consequences. They will vote the here and now.

The legalities and traditions argument will go right out the window. If I were attempting to garner positive votes for this issue, I'd go with the loss of membership issue. It carries the heartstrings and is purely emotional.

Jack
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Old 01-22-2007, 03:50 PM   #73
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Jack et al,

I think this can be combated as long as you look like a friend ( and vote for grandfather) and also let everybody know that besides local friends in the unit, there is also the club in its entirety to protect as well. One can be a hero to both causes.
We are sympathetic to class "A" owners but we are also concerned for WBCCI. Remember, the needs of the few do not outweigh the needs of the many.
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Old 01-22-2007, 04:16 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttercup
Jack et al,

I think this can be combated as long as you look like a friend ( and vote for grandfather) and also let everybody know that besides local friends in the unit, there is also the club in its entirety to protect as well. One can be a hero to both causes.
We are sympathetic to class "A" owners but we are also concerned for WBCCI. Remember, the needs of the few do not outweigh the needs of the many.
I think they key is whether a grandfather solution turns up. My gut is that it will not since unless I'm wrong, only one proposal has been forwarded. Again the units will only be prepared to vote for one issue. I remember this last year when our unit turned down the initial name change proposal only to turn the reps loose to vote on a modified proposal without the local membership having any voice in the matter. Maybe in this case the alternative can be the grandfathered proposal but the units have to think ahead regarding how this original proposal may become modified once it hits the floor.

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Old 01-22-2007, 04:31 PM   #75
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I believe that it could be proposed at the International if it makes it's way through the regions, etc... But I may be way off base here.
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Old 01-22-2007, 04:56 PM   #76
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I believe that it could be proposed at the International if it makes it's way through the regions, etc... But I may be way off base here.
Tim,

The Class A motion could morf through floor modifications just like AOAI became WBAC. If that happens, what is a poor delegate to do, absent instructions from the unit? Just say no or just say yes?

Bill
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Old 01-22-2007, 04:56 PM   #77
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The legalities and traditions argument will go right out the window. If I were attempting to garner positive votes for this issue, I'd go with the loss of membership issue. It carries the heartstrings and is purely emotional.
The emotional factor is apparent in the 'holy jihad' some have going on the topic of the day, every day it seems. IMHO, it is the overraught rhetoric we see in these threads that is doing more to drive members away than anything else.

I think that going back to the original WBCCI identity is likely to result in a net gain in membership. Yes, it might loose a few but generally any organization that gets back to its roots will end up gaining in the end. Pride is a powerful emotion, especially if based on something positive and constructive and worthwhile.

But it is the loss of the Wally Way - tolerance of other viewpoints, politeness, friendship, and collegiality that concern me more. The stories from folks such as Joe or Kevin pale when placed beside the kind of words (and avatars) one can see in these discussions. Does anyone really want to go camping with people who seem to always be angry? people who are always attacking those who disagree with vehemence and personal snide? people who seem to want only to display their anger with symbols and acting out?
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Old 01-22-2007, 05:06 PM   #78
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what is a poor delegate to do, absent instructions from the unit?
Bill, the delegate should act like the responsible, intelligent, and knowledgable friend of his or her unit members that he or she probably is. As a representative of that unit, the delegate should act in what he determines is a way to best reflect the interests and preferences of all of the members in that unit.

If the assumption is that the delegate is one of us, if we exercised our responsibilities in helping that delegate prepare, if we assumed that the delegate is a good and well meaning person, then this question about what to do is answered. That is the way we should think of each other in the WBCCI.

If, on the other hand, you don't think much of others, don't trust others, don't communicate with them as friends at rallies and events, think everyone else is stupid or ignorant, think of anyone but your close buddies as a 'them' - I really think you have some problems to work on. I don't think the WBCCI is the place to work on them.
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Old 01-22-2007, 05:19 PM   #79
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Bill, the delegate should act like the responsible, intelligent, and knowledgable friend of his or her unit members that he or she probably is. As a representative of that unit, the delegate should act in what he determines is a way to best reflect the interests and preferences of all of the members in that unit.

If the assumption is that the delegate is one of us, if we exercised our responsibilities in helping that delegate prepare, if we assumed that the delegate is a good and well meaning person, then this question about what to do is answered. That is the way we should think of each other in the WBCCI.

If, on the other hand, you don't think much of others, don't trust others, don't communicate with them as friends at rallies and events, think everyone else is stupid or ignorant, think of anyone but your close buddies as a 'them' - I really think you have some problems to work on. I don't think the WBCCI is the place to work on them.
Bryan,

But if the delegate has not had detailed conversations with everyone in the unit who voted as to how they feel, how can they do it. Such as the name change, members could have wanted AOAI but not WBAC, is the delegate to know that. If there is a motion which the units are to vote on, then that motion and no other should be presented for the delegates, otherwise just rely on the delegates, as we rely on our members of Congress, to vote their conscience.

I do trust and respect the other members of my unit, but if they are called to vote on something which has not been presented and discussed at a meeting, the delegate has no direction. Is the delegate to vote the wishes of their unit or what they think the unit wants?

Why should a unit vote on a motion which can be modified before it actually comes to a vote.

I had this conversation last year with Jim Elmlinger, president of Region 12. I said that the delegates will vote on the name change of AOAI or any other name which is put on the floor. First he disagreed, but then acknowledged that the name change motion could be modified on the floor.

I have no problem with the way our delegate voted on the actual motion.

Bill
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Old 01-22-2007, 06:18 PM   #80
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But if the delegate has not had detailed conversations with everyone in the unit who voted as to how they feel, how can they do it.
This is where judgment and intelligence and trust come in.

I dare say you have a good idea of what your friends will think about something without having to ask them specifically. Occasionally you get surprised but, for the most part, and especially on the important things, you usually get it right - with those friends you meet with regularly.

This is the true nature of good relationships. People trust each other. You get to know each other's values. You can anticipate decisions because of this understanding. Developing these kinds of relationships is one of the primary reasons WBCCI exists.

The people in the unit have a responsibility to select a delegate they trust, that they know will represent them in a responsible manner. They then need to delegate to that representive their trust in representing their values. "vote the wishes of their unit or what they think the unit wants?" should be one and the same.

This is how people function. It is neither feasible nor productive to remove any ambiguity from instruction about what to do. On the other hand, getting the right person in the right job with the leeway to use their judgment and get the job done has proven to be a good path towards success.

For a good rundown on the history of group decision making, I suggest reading the preface to Robert's Rules of Order. That book has centuries of understanding and 'trial by fire' experience behind it.

What Jim (and other WBCCI leaders) are having a bit of difficulty with, I think, is the current level of animosity, distrust, and misuse of procedure that seems to have come up recently. They are being forced into a corner and having to invoke the line. That is causing much damage, I think. No one likes having to ditch collegial discussion for the kind of vehement rhetoric so evident in these forums. You see the same phenomena in the moderation of these forums.
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