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Old 01-17-2012, 10:31 AM   #901
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How did you get that from what he said?
I suppose you can read into it what you want. I could have phrased it a better. I wasn't referring to Nuvi, but to the approach of the WBCCI as a group in dealing with membership losses. Thanks for asking for the clarification.

Why this club is chronically losing members has been debated for years. It may be unstoppable (many traditional clubs are losing members rapidly as the internet changes things), but may be slowable.

I was wondering what we would have done had we been given a one year membership in the WBCCI when we bought our trailer. I doubt we would have joined for a 2nd year. We did go to a very small and informal rally in the first year and while it was an enjoyable experience, by then I had read on the Forum of the decline of the organization, the MH issue, internal fighting, attempts to expel members and more. Why should we send our money to such a group?

By now, other groups have started and the Forum has taken a larger role in filling the space the WBCCI once did. We have friends with RV's and sometimes we have camped with them even though they are not enlightened enough to have an Airstream. And we travel to many destinations all over the US and Canada and have little time for rallies no interest in caravans. It may be that others have the same approach—do people have less interest in rallies and caravans than they did 40 years ago? There may be a shift in attitudes that makes the primary services the WBCCI seems to provide less important to Airstream owners. People have always tried to connect with each other, but the Forum makes it easy, is free or cheap, has a lot of Airstream info readily at hand and it goes on all year—it is hard for the WBCCI to beat that, but the WBCCI's decline started long before the Forum was invented.

The job of membership chairman is never a lot of fun in a volunteer organization. I don't envy Don and don't see how he can make much of a dent in the annual declines so long as the leadership doesn't change. Making the transition to a more internet based organization is not easy and other groups have not mastered it either, but is necessary. It seems free (or heavily discounted) one year memberships may be a relatively cheap way to attract people, but as has been pointed out, new members don't stay for a lot of years. Whether the economics of it make sense, I don't know.

So, the organization does not appeal to most people. Considering how many people say they are staying in because they've made friends in a unit, it is the units and not the international organization that keep members paying dues. And it is the international leadership that repels people and causes them to leave or never join. Some never join because the group is very weak on the internet. Marketing can only hide these facts from members for a while—apparently it takes 5 to 7 years to figure it out for lots of members.

So to answer my own question, the present approach is not effective. The membership chair's efforts, no matter how good they are, will not help much until the organization is reinvented. Some people are coming up though the system and hope to change the WBCCI. I hope that works, but I'm not hopeful it will.

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Old 01-17-2012, 11:10 AM   #902
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I was wondering what we would have done had we been given a one year membership in the WBCCI when we bought our trailer. I doubt we would have joined for a 2nd year.
I totally agree with that, and suspect we would not have continued the member after the first year either. The $35, $55, or even $100 a year in itself is not a deal breaker considering fuel and other expenses related to our travel. Given the money wasn't misused (as it is in the eyes of many). A diluted club makes it a totally unnecessary expense.

This MOHO issue is one, of a few, make-or-break issues we're watching closely. We're, (hopefully) young enough to be one of those 30+ year members, someday. No I won't join now and fight from within. I would do whatever I could to support the club, but I won't join with the intention of changing it.

As a young man I was given some really good advice. Never marry someone with the expectation you can change what you can't live with.
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Old 01-17-2012, 11:26 AM   #903
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MOHO issue

For me it is simple! I have to put up with enough politics as it is without adding to it by being a WBCCI member. I have already advised them, for what it is worth, that I will not renew my membership if they pass the MOHO proposal. Actually I have a commitment to fulfill at the Top of Georgia through the end of 2013 but after that I'll be history, not that they care. At any rate, in my opinion, the WBCCI is a dinosaur and will follow the same path to extinction.
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Old 01-17-2012, 11:43 AM   #904
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Is it really dropping or evolving?
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Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
... Marketing can only hide these facts from members for a while—apparently it takes 5 to 7 years to figure it out for lots of members...
Gene
Quite right, 7 years in my case to go from eager to underwhelmed. It is the refining of the club into International Past President Jim F.'s vision of quality members over quantity of members that is fast becoming the new reality of the remaining membership, however those numbers are touted. Post after post of, "money is no object," and "just ignore the politics," and "I love my unit so it's totally worth it," makes the International club just that much more comfortable with "their" club and confident in their collective rule that they never relinquish once an officer. All the Wally Byam "dyed in the wool" beret wearers supporting the leadership no matter what is ironically self defeating.

Precurser to the 2020 and then the Revision committee, I turned Renee E. down to serve on the Member Share Committee believing it could be a conflict of interest and would interfer with my expression and judgments. I think it has changed many an individual as they climb that ladder.
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Old 01-18-2012, 08:04 AM   #905
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Wow! How many years now have you been beating that dead horse? The reason WBCCI is declining is YOU! You all want to be in charge and have it your way.

A good example of a very few folks disrupting a larger group to the point of disaster.

Why not put your envy and bitterness aside and let the officers run the club. You folks are the OWSers of the WBCCI.

Well, that ought to stir the pot.
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Old 01-18-2012, 01:34 PM   #906
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I'm a brand-new member. I don't know if my attitude is typical of new members or not. Take it for what it's worth.

I didn't join WBCCI because of anything related to the bureaucratic internal politics of WBCCI. In fact, I failed miserably in even reading all nine hundred thirty-three previous posts on this thread. I don't have the time to read all of the back-and-forth that has been part of this thread since October 2010. I do have time, though, to read just enough to get disgusted with it all. So much bitterness and vitriol on this thread!

I joined WBCCI because someone from a local unit contacted me and convinced me it would be fun. If I could join local units without joining the International club in the process, I'd do it in a heartbeat, and not because of the membership dues. To my way of thinking, I paid $80 to join a local unit, not $65 to join the International club and $15 to join a local unit. I can't help that the International club takes $65 of my dues and leaves the people at the local level with just the remainder. That's just bureaucracy in action.

At the local level, as far as I can see so far, the main issues they care about for recruiting new members are: (a) do I own an Airstream; and (b) do I want to come out and play with them? If I can answer "yes" to both questions, I'm welcome, and if I answer "no" to at least one of them, then we go our separate ways with no hard feelings.

In the final analysis, isn't that what a club should be about? Isn't that why it's called a "club" and not some pretentious name like an "association" or an "organization" or a "society"?
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Old 01-18-2012, 02:01 PM   #907
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Arrow

At this point everyone that wants the amendment defeated should be talking about how their individual units are planning to debate this issue and vote on it.

Threats that you will not renew-meaningless.

Take that attitude to your units delegate, it is only that persons power to to cast your units vote that matters. (make sure you have a delegate attending[an affiliate member may stand in])

I would only ad that the proponent of the amendment should also be made aware of your individual opinion, venting here is accomplishing little especially by non members

Now what have you done in that regard.


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Old 01-18-2012, 02:15 PM   #908
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At this point everyone that wants the amendment defeated should be talking about how their individual units are planning to debate this issue and vote on it.
.
If a unit does NOT vote on this or does NOT send a delegate is it safe to assume that this is a NO vote and helpful to our cause?? This would require a 2/3 yes vote to pass??
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Old 01-18-2012, 02:34 PM   #909
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If a unit does NOT vote on this or does NOT send a delegate is it safe to assume that this is a NO vote and helpful to our cause?? This would require a 2/3 yes vote to pass??
No, I don't believe it's safe to assume that. As long as there is a quorum at the delegates meeting, what is needed for the measure to pass is a YES vote by 2/3 of the units represented at the meeting.
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Old 01-18-2012, 02:46 PM   #910
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From the way the Constitution is written, I agree that only 2/3 of the votes case at that meeting would be required to adopt the amendment. I think the abstentions would be counted as not voting for the proposal and would therefore help defeat it. I agree that all units should take a vote as soon as possible to keep it from being adopted.
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:37 PM   #911
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Be sure to note that the units in favor of the amendments will be there to vote.!!! If your unit does not care or know, I think this will ensure passage. No? jim
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Old 01-18-2012, 04:51 PM   #912
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At this point everyone that wants the amendment defeated should be talking about how their individual units are planning to debate this issue and vote on it.

Threats that you will not renew-meaningless.

Take that attitude to your units delegate, it is only that persons power to to cast your units vote that matters. (make sure you have a delegate attending[an affiliate member may stand in])

I would only ad that the proponent of the amendment should also be made aware of your individual opinion, venting here is accomplishing little especially by non members

Now what have you done in that regard.


.
An affiliate member may represent your unit, but the affiliate member must also be a regular member of a unit in the same region and can not be representing any other unit at the delegates meeting. They will also need to have the proper documentation signed by the unit president to be seated.
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Old 01-18-2012, 05:07 PM   #913
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It has been stated that 2/3 of the units present may pass an amendment and that 2/3 of all units in the club may pass an amendment. This is contradictory and I have seen it stated both ways for quite some time.

If it is 2/3 of units present, what if a unit is there, but has no qualified delegate accepted by whomever accepts them?

If it is 2/3 of all units, it would be more difficult to pass anything, and, therefore, it is probably 2/3 of those attending.

I know some people on these threads can cite section and paragraph numbers to answer specific questions—answer please?

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Old 01-18-2012, 05:12 PM   #914
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If a unit does NOT vote on this or does NOT send a delegate is it safe to assume that this is a NO vote and helpful to our cause?? This would require a 2/3 yes vote to pass??
Rick I believe that no vote would be counted as an abstention.
Therefore, only the ya's Vs. nay's count.
The standard 2/3 vote is of the members who voted, 2/3 of the members present.

from RONR

The phrase “abstention votes” is an oxymoron, an abstention being a refusal to vote. To abstain means to refrain from voting, and, as a consequence, there can be no such thing as an “abstention vote.”

In the usual situation, where either a majority vote or a two-thirds vote is required, abstentions have absolutely no effect on the outcome of the vote since what is required is either a majority or two thirds of the votes cast. On the other hand, if the vote required is a majority or two thirds of the members present, or a majority or two thirds of the entire membership, an abstention will have the same effect as a “no” vote. Even in such a case, however, an abstention is not a vote and is not counted as a vote. [RONR (11th ed.), p. 400, ll. 7-12; p. 401, ll. 8-11; p. 403, ll. 13-24; see also p. 66 of RONRIB.]
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Old 01-18-2012, 05:36 PM   #915
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Bob, most organizations have their own way of counting votes and determining how to deal with abstentions. Sometimes it is the same as Robert's, sometimes not.

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Old 01-18-2012, 05:37 PM   #916
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If it's not stated in the bylaws, RONR is procedure
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Old 01-18-2012, 05:55 PM   #917
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It has been stated that 2/3 of the units present may pass an amendment and that 2/3 of all units in the club may pass an amendment. This is contradictory and I have seen it stated both ways for quite some time.
. . .

I know some people on these threads can cite section and paragraph numbers to answer specific questions—answer please?
Statements of 2/3 of the units represented at the Delegates Meeting and 2/3 of all units are not contradictory, they just refer to two different ways of amending the constitution.

Amendments in accordance with Article XVI, Section 1 are voted on by the units (or not, as the case may be) entirely separately from the Delegates Meeting. 2/3 of the units must ratify the amendment in order for it to pass.

This is the route by which Forrest's "DenCO" or "Region 11" amendment, whichever you wish to call it is following. At this juncture it appears unlikely to pass, not because of units voting against it, but rather because of units ignoring it.

Amendments in accordance with Article XVI, Section 2 are voted on at the Delegates Meeting and can be passed by a 2/3 vote of the units represented at the meeting.

Article XII, Section 6 establishes the quorum for the Delegates Meeting at only 20% of the eligible delegates. A constitutional revision could be passed by a very small number of units if few enough units sent delegates.

The WBCCI constitution is available on the WBCCI web site for anyone who wants to see it.

At this time units do not know what will be on the agenda for this year's Delegates meeting. Article XVI Section 2 requires proposed constitutional amendments to be submitted to the units no later than April 1, which is a ways off. The big question for this year will be whether the whole Revised Constitution placed on the agenda last year, and then withdrawn at the last minute, will again appear. (My sympathy to the delegates if it does.)
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:07 PM   #918
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I know our unit president speaks for unit 024-No moho of any form
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:27 PM   #919
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Question Life Members?

Personally, before any vote was taken, I would like to see the actual number of how many life members there are right now that own a motorhome. I mean, just how many members is this really going to affect? What is their average age? Will they be driving many more years?

Since the amendment states "life members currently owning a motorhome", then that's where we need to concentrate the facts and figures. It doesn't say anything about becoming a life member after this motion is passed.

And as for membership loss - in our own unit this year, we had one death, one with medical problems, two that sold their Airstreams and moved into retirement communities to be closer to grandchildren, one that met a guy on a caravan and moved to his area, and two with young families that have been affected by the economic situation.

We have since gained four new members. We expect to be even by the end of the year.
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Old 01-18-2012, 07:43 PM   #920
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If you call Cindy Reed at Jackson Center she can answer your question on how many life members own Airstream motor homes. She gave me the list of all 450 motorhome owners last year. The list of life members is also available in the same data base. The database can not tell you their age or whether they would be interested in buying a new Thor motorhome.
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