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Old 12-22-2011, 04:05 PM   #801
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Originally Posted by az-streamer View Post
a good start might just having a simple Forum poll. one AS - one vote on the overall MOHO issue.

one question to start: AS only vs non-AS only.

i have a good idea as to which way THAT poll would go.

hopefully, these results would then be used as an indication of the direction in which the vast majority of the WBCCI members want the
club to head.

i think the answer would speak volumes and most of the 'forum talk' would not be needed.
How many more polls do we need?

WBCCI conducted a member survey in 2004. One question was,

“The WBCCI membership base should be broadened to include any RV brand made by Thor Industries, parent company of Airstream.”

The response was,

Strongly agree: 8.5%
Agree: 12.1%
Disagree: 19.3%
Strongly Disagree: 57.2%

In other words, 3/4 of the members disagreed with that statement and nearly 2/3 strongly disagreed!

Nevertheless, a Thor motor home amendment was proposed to the 2007 Delegates Meeting. Out of 6240 votes the vote tally was,

YES - 2435 or 39%
NO - 3677 or 59%
Abstain - 126 or 2%

So instead of receiving the 2/3 majority needed to pass, nearly 2/3 voted against it.

But it looks like it'll be on the ballot again in 2012. . . sigh. . .
.
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Old 12-22-2011, 04:20 PM   #802
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There is a strong desire for a forums at many levels and for many reasons by many people - all of them good in my opinion. But based on the experiences with the last 2 forums, the committee is very wary of being accused of moderating negative viewpoints in an attempt to foster only a positive viewpoint of the club.

Also, the reason the old forums was shut down was not in an attempt to silence MEMBERS viewpoints - but rather was due to differences which existed between the previous forums owner and the club leadership.
Ok are there any WBCCI members that would volunteer to moderate such a forum.

Anyone care to step up to the plate?




.
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Old 12-22-2011, 04:48 PM   #803
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I didn't mean to hijack the thread with my response. This thread wasn't about the forums per se. But as far a poll, I don't think one is needed either. Obviously, some folks are not listening to poll results anyway and plan to push this issue through again and again until it passes and they get their way.
The club suffers with each iteration so even though it doesn't pass, we lose members.
A letters to the editor would be nice though.....
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Old 12-22-2011, 05:03 PM   #804
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YES - 2435 or 39%
NO - 3677 or 59%
Abstain - 126 or 2%


maybe we need t-shirts?



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would these be 'rally certified'?
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Old 12-22-2011, 07:07 PM   #805
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From what I understand, early caravans organized by Wally were open to all makes. At some time that changed, whether the reason was non Airstreams were not strong enough or, being a salesman, Wally realized that it made more marketing sense to limit the caravans to his trailers, that is unknown to me. I think that both contributed to the change.

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Zigzag. your assumption above is partially correct. From what I read, all trailers were allowed to travel with Wally, but those non-airstreams were breaking down more frequently. One reason for Airstream-only.
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Old 12-22-2011, 07:09 PM   #806
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Dwight,

Correction, the California factory was not closed until 1979, when Thor was formed to purchase Airstream from Beatrice.

Bill

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I had heard that Wally make the decision to only allow Airstreams on his later caravans was that there was too much demand and he did not want to increase the number of caravans above the number the factory could support. Why wouldn't you treat your customers better than SOB's. WBCCI headquarters were an office in his factory administrated by his cousin Helen and Wally paid her salary and partially funded to caravan support. When Beatrice bought the company, after Wally died, they move all manufacturing to Jackson Center, Ohio and WBCCI moved into an independent building with their own dues paid staff. It is still that way. The Airstream company did get the benefit of customer run field testing and factory failure analysis, which helped them build a better product. Now failures are reported on Airforums and the engineering staff simply needs to lurk here to identify design flaws. It seems simpler than hiring a big staff to do the testing.
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Old 12-22-2011, 10:45 PM   #807
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Not humorous or untrue by my assessment but then again I am not an official WBCCI record straightener, (and that is humor.) I thank you on behalf of the great many that are now relieved at your correction of my opinion. WHEW that's a load off, for sure. And yet on fast read I didn't detect any appreciable difference... Ah but then we each do what we have to do respectively, right?

Nuvi, here's wishing you cheers and silver belles. Oh and fun, everyone should be having fun, it's all about fun. I'm having fun and I used to have fun and I expect to have more fun in the future when I get together with many of you that also had fun are having fun and are planning diligently to have even fun again too. I think its part of the core values now. I wonder if its in the new by-laws? ...yeah that's humor too

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Carol,

This statement may be an attempt at humor making a point but I have to say that it is patently untrue. The reason that the club does not have a forums right now is because there is no desire for the members of the ECC to be dragged into flame ward over how the forums are moderated or maintained. There is a strong desire for a forums at many levels and for many reasons by many people - all of them good in my opinion. But based on the experiences with the last 2 forums, the committee is very wary of being accused of moderating negative viewpoints in an attempt to foster only a positive viewpoint of the club.

Also, the reason the old forums was shut down was not in an attempt to silence MEMBERS viewpoints - but rather was due to differences which existed between the previous forums owner and the club leadership.

I just thought that fact should be corrected.
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Old 12-23-2011, 04:27 AM   #808
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I stand corrected. Beatrice did not close all the California plants, they simply moved most of the production to Ohio, and removed the direct support of WBCCI from their budget. They were losing money big time and sold out to Thor. Here is a link to a pretty good site on the history: Airstream History.com, Silver Wheels

Over the years Thor has continued to run their business to maximize their profits and reduce their support of WBCCI. Thor has changed its marketing focus away from the things and people WBCCI caters to.
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Old 12-23-2011, 06:52 AM   #809
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Thor has done their homework and are selling to a different demographic than the club. The club should take note and do the same. That would require CHANGE.
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Old 12-23-2011, 08:04 AM   #810
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Thor has done their homework and are selling to a different demographic than the club. The club should take note and do the same. That would require CHANGE.

Adapt or become extinct. It is the way of the world...
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Old 12-23-2011, 08:49 AM   #811
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Sometimes I get to thinking and often think too much. Well, heck, here's the lastest think: I bet it's not that Airstream changed its demographic while the WBCCI didn't, but rather than Airstream kept the same demographic while the WBCCI didn't.

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Old 12-23-2011, 08:51 AM   #812
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Lynn, great point!
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Old 12-23-2011, 09:14 AM   #813
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Sorry Carol – I could not see the very subtle hints that it was an opinion. The suppositions looked as though it was presented as a fact by the exclusion of the words “in my opinion” and the inclusion of “factual” statements about a twice over cleansing rendering a inappropriate result.


Truth be told, the first forums was shut down not as a cleansing but simply because the forums software was years out of date and could not be upgraded at a reasonable cost by the vendor. It was not really cleansed because the entire contents of that old forums was reproduced in its entirety (as far as I was able to see) when the new forums were released. Actually, when I was a member of that first forums committee, one of the very first tasks I did was to make a backup of those old forums and then start to look for a way to convert the old database to a new system so it could be preserved.


At the time, as I remember, the leadership did express a concern that they wanted to be sure they could identify who any individual poster was . I think this may have been so that if someone said something really nasty, they could take it to the ethics committee. There was a belief that someone may try to impersonate the leaders of the club and make disruptive statements. We had to assure the leaders that any new forums software was advanced enough that this likely would not happen.


Heck, why am I telling you all of this, you remember this because we were all watching the goings-on during our SaveWally days... I may have ruffled a few feathers by offering a “correction” here, but as one who has been on both sides of the rumor mill, I can see the value of expressing the facts as facts rather than the opinion as facts in this case. The opinion expressed as facts leads to a great misunderstanding and a belief that some very nefarious activities are going on. When really, most probably, the worst of it is that the leadership did not get involved in the forums as some may have agreed to. And those that did get involved quickly withdrew – which I can understand being as the grinding mill has a tendency to completely chew up people and spit them out. Like I said – I know this is true because I have been on both sides of that fence now....


What IS nefarious is that the club membership has spoken its mind time and time again on the issue of SOB motorhomes in the club and a few select people are repeatedly trying to push the issue through.
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Old 12-23-2011, 09:53 AM   #814
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What IS nefarious is that the club membership has spoken its mind time and time again on the issue of SOB motorhomes in the club and a few select people are repeatedly trying to push the issue through.
I don't believe it's fair to attribute nefariousness to those who "time and time again" push for this issue.
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Old 12-23-2011, 10:39 AM   #815
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Nefariousness might be a little strong. Certainly self centered and self serving. They may also be self-deluding to the point that they think they are actually doing something that will not damage the club.
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Old 12-23-2011, 10:55 AM   #816
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Perhaps "out of step with the wishes of the membership" is a better characterization?
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Old 12-23-2011, 11:42 AM   #817
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Hmmm - never thought of it as being too harsh, but looking up the complete definition it perhaps is. Well, its just a word and has little meaning beyond what we ascribe to it - I did not give it that depth of meaning....in my mind.

But to me, "out of step" is not strong enough, the membership has spoken by way of surveys and actual voting - they do not want this. The next statement the membership makes is with their feet, and that is perhaps already happening.
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Old 12-23-2011, 01:14 PM   #818
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I believe you are correct. Each round of discourse on this issue seems to accelerate the rate of departure.
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Old 12-23-2011, 06:24 PM   #819
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Thumbs down

I don't think the issue of departure would come into play unless the amendment passed.

Right now we're dealing with perhaps block heads that can't accept defeat.

What bothers me more is the false basis it was presented to members.
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Old 12-24-2011, 04:16 AM   #820
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The next statement the membership makes is with their feet, and that is perhaps already happening.
from 25k to less than 7? YA THINK?
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