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Old 07-17-2011, 09:00 AM   #21
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When did hate come into this? I never uttered the word hate, brother.

as I said earlier...

And it gets even more difficult when people are not willing to except their failures and set a course to correcting the issues.
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Old 07-17-2011, 10:04 AM   #22
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Hey, you guys sound like you've read the labor union manuals uncovered in a recent lawsuit.
A very interesting Read, but not sure which side your were directing that comment to.

The Leadership dose have a history of using scare tactics, as most recently presented by Mr. Schaffer smoke screen at the International, and Legal Pressure, frequent use of cease and desist letters, to accomplish there means.

Not sure they have ever attempted to bankrupt anything other than the Club they are sucking the life from.

Yes the membership has contributed to that eventual bankruptcy by withdrawal from membership. However that action is a singular one of choice and not coordinated effort.
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Old 07-18-2011, 07:29 PM   #23
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Hey, you guys sound like you've read the labor union manuals uncovered in a recent lawsuit.
The Washington Times is not known for unbiased journalism. It is associated with the Unification Church. The Washington Times - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Old 07-18-2011, 08:33 PM   #24
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The Washington Times is not known for unbiased journalism. It is associated with the Unification Church. The Washington Times - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Of course, Wikipedia is not known for unbiased journalism, either. . .
.
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Old 07-19-2011, 02:51 AM   #25
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Of course, Wikipedia is not known for unbiased journalism, either. . .
.
Nor are many leaders, directors, or management types.
Heck, there is not one unbiased voice here.
Just ask a question about tires, axles, and the most toxic of all subject matter,THE WB, and a total heap of unbiased opinions will come to light.
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Old 07-19-2011, 02:34 PM   #26
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Nor are many leaders, directors, or management types.
Heck, there is not one unbiased voice here.
Just ask a question about tires, axles, and the most toxic of all subject matter,THE WB, and a total heap of unbiased opinions will come to light.
I'd like to argue about that, but I guess it's more appropriate to argue on the Argue Thread. I try hard to not be biased.

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Old 07-29-2011, 07:44 AM   #27
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Hey, you guys sound like you've read the labor union manuals uncovered in a recent lawsuit.



and it even harder when that 'acceptance' is being forced on one by a bitter and angry mob that comes across as rather distanced from reality - much as illustrated here.

There isn't much of a 'debate' or discussion when a point is offered that is just refuted. Look for example on the 'circular logic' and 'power' points raised. The response was not to try to understand their underpinnings but rather just a plain 'no it's not'. i.e. a complete refusal to accept an idea or even sound it out.

Then there's the example of projection.

Things don't change in any 'good' way when that change is driven by the wrong emotions.

On the other hand, I do see change being driven by folks who aren't so angry and bitter and full of the conspiracy ethos. What troubles me is that some of that effort is an attempt to appease those vocal and irrational complainers and that sort of appeasement usually doesn't work out well.

Take all the energy of the hate being shown here and direct that at positive education of the 'masses' about the need for change and the path you think is best. If your ideas really do have merit, they will have influence. If they have sufficient influence, you will stimulate the change you desire.

But then again, if you don't get your way, throwing a tantrum like a 2yo probably isn't in your best interests in the long run.

Thank you, you just proved everyone's point here on this forum. The club is just not for those elite members who have either higher education or higher incomes, who also subscribe to an inquisition styled formality that the average joe finds both uncomfortable and uneccessary. Your presumption of the neccessity for a correct order of play including changes at will, just shows how biased you are towards mere members.

The fact that you agree with a system which carries with it the power of manipulation just goes to show all of us who just want to have a good time, that your in agreement with a system of failure. If you call the present bylaws and constitution fair then you must agree that a smaller more elite club is the one you favor.

There is no way the present organization and managemnet of the club can be changed from below. It hasn't happened in 12 years that I'm aware of and I see no way the club will ever expand beyond its present failed state. This club will eventually disband because the mission has been compromised by those who's agenda it is to make the club something it was not!

The portrayal of angry members as both incompetant and unwilling to listen to your version of the truth is so disengenous I can't stand it. I sat before the IBT EC7 in 2004 to discuss the relationship between members of the VAC and the club at large and was basically told to shut my mouth and quit complaining, you want talk about who was angry? We were dressed down like criminals and told that we had no authority to do anything other than babysit the rowdy crowd down by the airport! quote "There will be no more tail wagging the dog!" end quote.

This is leadership?

I manage to calm down from this incident only to watch my best Airstream friend leave the club is disgust. If I'm angry, its only because you have left me no choice but to leave my other Airstream friends behind in an attempt to hasten the club demise by not supporting it!

No amount of good will can change a system that has only self interest as its goal!
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:48 PM   #28
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Leaders in the WBCCI aren't picked for their ability to lead but rather their ability to play politics as usuall.

In my unit, Pensacola 29, we had a unit president that was in the process of making some much needed changes. He "fast tracked" another guy who was going to futher these changes to be his successor. When a few couples who considered themselves the "old timers" of the club and thought things should be dictatced the way they thought things should be disagreed with the selection of the next president, they threatened to take nominations from the floor in an effort of getting one of their cronnies in there, rather than go by the slate of officers on the board. Before the next election took place, the guy who was going to be president basically said screw this and quit. In the meanwhile, these old timer croonies simply told the board they were going to appoint themselves to be in power to replace those of us who quit, no election neccessary.

Of course circumstances took place at International that contributed to the rift in the Mystic Springs Unit as well. One being that the "official" unit account of what took place isnt' at all what happened in reality but the then region 6 president backed that story up because he is personal freinds with one of the old timer cronnies.

During this period, the unit membership which had numbered around 110 has dropped to 65 and will drop even more this year because some of us renewed before fully knwing what took place.

I did my own personaly investigation as to what took place and really happened, yet the then region 6 president said he couldn't know what took place because it was all too complicated and was just going to not do anything aobut it and let it go away on its own. Well, the problem remains but a lot of people who disagreed with what took place did go away. I suppose for the region 6 pres. that's the sme thing as the problem going away on its own.

When I sent out an email to many of the members describing my findings as to what took place, I was attacked by a couple of these cronnies calling me a liar. Yet they refused my challanged to an open public debate in a unit meeting.

The way I see it, a corrupted chain of "leadership" runs all the way up the ladder to the top, with the higher ups defending what those in lower leadership do because they then expect those lower than them to back them up in return.

The bottomline is that the Pensacola unit 29 unit is in jepardy of loosing their club's Mysic Springs campground because of lack of support. Rather than the current leaders, rather, dictators step down, they would much rather ermain in power and run the unit into the ground.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:07 PM   #29
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Wam52, I am with you! Over 30 of our frinds have quit the Pensacola Unit in disgust last year. More won't renew this year because they, including myself, had already renewed before finding out the truth as to what really did take place at International. (Not this past one but in 2010)

Then the cronnies of the unit did nothing less than a hostil take over so they could keep the club the way its been for the last 5 decades and not make any changes that the majority of the membership was wanting. Well, I guess they have it the way they want it now, a smaller, "more exclusive" club. Sure, we could have fought it out with them but you have to know when it's wiser to quit and go on enjoying life instead of fighting against idiots.


The funny thing is that they have to beg and plead just to get a campground host during the summer and now have to consider closing it during the summer. They had to cancel the rally in July becasue of lack of participation. (They can't use the excuse of the pavillion not being airconditioned, because that was installed a few years ago.)
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:56 AM   #30
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Sorry to hear of the Mystic Springs troubles. Page and I stopped in there a couple of years ago, met some nice folks, enjoyed the facilities and pledged to come back one day.

I hope it works out somehow.

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Old 08-01-2011, 02:21 PM   #31
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So, what happened in 2010? jim
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Old 08-03-2011, 01:50 AM   #32
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That's why a lot of people have quit the unit and are put out with the WBCCI in general because of lame leadership. The internal affairs of the club is being conducted as a dictatorship.

I believe I was very impartial in my own private investigation as to what all took place at International and afterwards. I believe I was rather impartial in sewtting out to learn what had happened and didn't preformulate any conclusions. I spoke with those involved, except those at the top of the WBCCI level. I spoke with the Wilson's, Pat Greggory, the replacement unit president, Leslie Randall as well as witnesses at International. I heared every side and concluded that what was being told to the Unit 29 membership was not true. What added to my conclusion was the refusal of the Unit's leadership to have an open disscussion about what took place. What was the final determing factor was John Stumpf's adament position that there will not be any public disscussion on the matter. Stumpf just wanted the entire issue to go away by itself.

When I sent out an email stating my independant findings to all of the board members and many of the members, all Pat Greggory could give in a response was ask how was she suppose to respond to such lies and rather than give a defense, quoted some Bible verses.

Sidra Spies sent out a follow up email to everyone questioning my motives since I hadn't been to any of the rallies in a while. (GEE, I wonder why that was?) Could it be that many of my friends were no longer attending rallies? She also directed everyone in her email to keep and print out a copy of the emails I sent, in case a grievane had to filed and intructed the person who was appointed as the chairman of the rules commitee to prepare filing a possible grievance against me. She concluded her email by quoting some of the WBCCI by-laws.

In fact, many of my friends replied back to me saying I recieved a typical response, Pat quoting the Bible and Sidra quoting the by-laws.


Prior to this, I was on the board as a trustee. I was highly committed to Mystic Springs Cove Park. I hauled my own company enclosed trailer over 65 miles one way, loaded with my commercial mowing equipment several times to mow the grounds. My family has been camp host several times. I sometimes hosted by myself when my wife and daughter couldn't be there with me and I've hosted during the summer when no one else would, when I should have been working instead. (I'm a landscaper.) We also hosted some rallies and helped cook on several occaisons. I have helped during work rallies, yet we never saw Pat and her husband at one. I donated a pull behind trailer and spreader to the park. I put up several bird houses and placed Posted signs all around the property perimeter, just to name a FEW of the things I did for Mystic Springs Park. So no one like Sidra is going to call into question my loyalty to the park and have anything substantial to say.

Yet, I was made out to be the one spreading lies amonst the membership. No Sidra, that was your friend, Pat doing that! I was merely telling my opinion and views as I seen it and I believe them to be very close to the truth of what happened. I challanged anyone who wanted to know my sources of information to a public discussion and anyone accusing me as a lyier to a public debate, at the park's pavillion. Of course, no one answered my challange. What I said went undisputed.

Those choosing to remain in Unit 29 know what took place, they just choose to ignore the truth and go on. Well, if the park ends up closing, all I can say is that bunch desrves it! I also dread seeing what will happen to the club should John Stumpf become president!

If anyone wants to file a grievance against me, you better hurry up because I'm not renewing! I am David Chamberlain and my Wally # is 11537, but I already took the numbers of my trailer!
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Old 08-03-2011, 04:41 AM   #33
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Thanks for the info. jim
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Old 08-03-2011, 01:54 PM   #34
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Sorry, without Ken's post being on here anymore, my acount starts mid way through the story-- I'll fill in the rest of the story.

What had started the entire situation to begin at International in 2010 was that when our unit president, Jimmy Wilson and his wife arrived at he bull pen, an over zealous parking volunteer got all bent out of shape over something and flew of the handle at the Wilson's. Later on, WBCCI Pres. Colliere and I believe his succesor along with the volunter went over to the Wilson's trailer and entered without knocking. One of them commenced pointing his finger in Mrs. Wilson's face and told them how they weren't going to get an appology or anything. I think one of them later gave a half appology of somesort. Well, the Wilson's left for a couple of days but returned so they could be there for International business. During the time they were gone, Pat took it upon herself to call selected unit 29 members to let them know how the Wilson's brought shame and dishonor upon our unit. Pat later denied doing this once she returned from International but too many of us know she did.

Leslie Randall, who was the unit treasuer at the time, started repeating Pat's account of what took place, sying that Jimmy Wilson said "F-U" to someone while there, when it was in fact, Pat's Husband Jim who really said that.

I had gotten word that the Wilson's weren't gong to continue with the unit and that the next one in line, 1st v.p. had resigned as well. I knew the 1 st v.p. had been rather committed because he helped cook for some Region 6 events, so for him to quit, I knew something was wrong. As members started finding out that the "official" account of what took place was totally different from other reports, we started questioning what really went on. Some had requested for an inquiry into the situation at a board meeting, which was meet with stone wall resistance. If memory serves me correctly, some other members brought this up at the next board meeting and was futher denied. This is the rally at which John Stumpf was in attendance where, as I hear it, he beat upon a table stating that there will be no open disscussion on the matter.

Shortly after this took place, John Stumpf called me and said he had heard that my wife and I weren't planning on coming back to Mystic Springs. I told him he heard correctly. John told me he was seeking to work the situation out but was hoping that evryone would just put what had happened behind them and would eventually come back. John told me that the more he tried finding out what had happened the more confussed he became and couldn't make heads or tails out of it. Upon him telling me tis, I determined to find out on my own what all took place. I spoke to the Wilson's and got their side of the story. I spoke to Pat, who by now was claiming she didn't know a thing as to why the Wilson's and other weren't coming back, she claimed to be clueless. I spoke to the then self appointed president, Leslie Randall, she maintained the story that the Wilson's brought shame and dishonor upon the unit. I spoke to someone tht was at International who was familiar with what took place, and others that were at International, as well as friend's of the Wilson's. For me knowing the Wilson's, I found the "official" account hard to swallow because this would have been very out of character for the Wilson's to have acted that way. In my years of knowing them and seeing them perform under stress, I find them to be very gracious southern hospitality type people. During this time, I was still in contact with John Stumpf and continued to speak with him about my findings. I was also in contact with various board members, who have since resighned, as to possible solutions. Even some board members wanted a public forum as to what took plce but their requests were vehemently denied by self appointed president, Leslie Randall.

During this time, another member sent out an email to those on the unit's list as stating that he wsn't going to support and organization that had liers for its leaders. This is the member that Stumpf helped Pat Greggory file a grievance against, in retaliation for him sending out his email and as a way to discredit him. That grievance was determined to be without merit later at the IBT meeting, I read a copy of the report. During my private investion, I didn't just blindly take people's word, although I believed their word to be true, I had to written proof when it was available, this I believe, kept me as impartial as possible.

BTW-- The one that Pat filed her grievance against is the one who did a bunch of back hoe work and all at Mystic Spring Park earlier in the fall of 2009 and in the spring of 2010. I as a professional landscaper can attest to the fact the this guy did over $10,000 worth of work at the park for only the cost of the fuel. He also broke a hydralic piston while doing this work so it ws not cheap and he was pushing the capability of the machinery just to do as much as he possibly could. All the board gave him fo rthis otehr than fuel money, was a certificate to attend a rally for free.

After I concluded my own investigation is when I sent out my email with my findings. This is the email that Pat responded to by quoting the Bible and Sidra Spies Quoting the WBCCI by-laws, followed by a not so veiled threat of having a grievance filed against me.

I hope this helps fill in the cracks of information.

I am of the opinion that all John Stumpf had to was censor, reprimand or somehow disipline Pat for what she did. Some where demanding that she quit before they'd come back, this was my position as well. However, if Pat would had merely apoligized and asked for forgiveness, that would ahve gone a long way and it would have most assuredly swayed many to come back, most likely including me. Mr. Stumpf didn't do a thing, he said that even as Region 6 persident his hands were tied. I am of the opinion that Mr. Stumpf chose not to do a thing because of his personal friendship with Pat's husband, Jim. They're big time golfing buddies and all that. Therefore, I utlimately hold Mr. Stumpf responsible for the damage done to the unit and Mystic Springs Park.

I continue to no longer support the park because those remaining in attendance are in full knowledge as to the truth as to what all took place but they instead choose to ignore truth and instead, accept a lie.

There was a very common expression told to those with new ideas and it was, "We mustn't upset Pat!". That still holds true, dispite the fact that unit 29 lost somewhere around 35 member last year and stand to loose at least another 10% of their membership this year.

Instead of Mystic Spring's motto being: "The home of the hug and a handshake", it needs to be changed to: "We mustn't upset Pat!"!
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Old 08-03-2011, 03:25 PM   #35
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I am so glad our experience has been totally different with the Georgia Unit. I realize it would be a long tow, but y'all are welcome at "Top of Georgia". It has proven to be a very friendly an welcoming group to us and that includes our young children and dog.
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Old 08-03-2011, 03:30 PM   #36
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Different units are like night and day. Fortunately, we in Texas Highland Lakes have experienced little disruption and have picked up seven member couples in the last two months.

We will definitely lose some members if the motorhome thing goes through, though.
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Old 08-03-2011, 04:19 PM   #37
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I have never been to a unit rally, however I have stayed at AS parks. I have noticed what appears to be selective enforcement and interpretation of the rules usually over minor issues. But what I may feel is minor may be a major deal to another. Could easily get out of hand. Jim
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:55 PM   #38
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I think some units tend to get too bend out of shape over following the letter of the by-laws and loose sight of Byrum's dream. The activities have to be centered around good comradidie, I know I mispelled that, and having a fun, relalxed time. Some good food doesn't hurt either! I visited a Forums rally a while back and really, what seems to be the big attractor is the plain laid back attitude. Even though the activities seem to be lacking at a Forums rally, because they don't want a set/firm agenda, they still attract a lot of people from way far away. What if the WBCCI were to reduce the legalities and formalities and focus on the rallies and other activities just being FUN? What was Wally's main focus on activities? A real impressive flag ceremony? Pomp and circumstance? Impressive rituals? From what I read, I think his focus was having an enjoyable time with friends, either they were old frineds or new friends!

Now when I was in the military, I didn't too much think that marching in formation to a retreat or change of command ceremony was all that much fun. In fact, standing at parade rest for an hour and a half sorta sucked! Why would that kind of junk be fun now that I'm out of the military, for anyone, really.

One of the early Boy Scout leaders had this to say about military style drill- that only an unimaginative person would even think that was an acceptable activity and rather than drill displaying the atributes of a leader it exposed that individual as lacking leadership qualities. A real leader uses imgination and creativity, has a vision, and a purpose! Does WBCCI have any of these attributes in its leaders? If so, we wherer is it? Doing things the way we always done it is a course to failure.

Here's a question for these uptight, strictly by the by-laws WBCCI "purists"- how do you explain the fact that the earliest of the Wally Byrum caravans allowed non Airstreams? Imagine that? Now, I'm all for everyone owning an Airstream, but, is the Club now what Wally envisioned it to be?
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Old 08-03-2011, 08:26 PM   #39
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Wally's vision was to promote whatever he sold. He also wanted to produce a quality product. He was innovative in both ways.

Caravans were to promote the product and learn something about durability, and have some fun too. After all, if everyone is having a good time, it promotes the product.

Caravans had a lot of rules because you've got to have them for a group of travelers to work together. That was in the tradition of the move west. Wally was the wagon master.

A club need not be run like a caravan, but it seems it is.

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Old 08-03-2011, 08:40 PM   #40
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Were not some carravans run before the AS owners formed the club? jim
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