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Old 09-02-2010, 09:06 PM   #61
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I have been on the road for 3 months, traveling to Alaska and back. I have

met a great number of WBCCI members in my travels, including

PIPs, region, local unit officers and members. The former PIPs know that

change is coming and know they will have to be onboard. Region and Unit

officers are aware that quick changes are needed to save the club. One

region officer said that most folks under 70 are looking for change. People

don't like the grievance process and its monetary cost to the club. The club

most move into the 21 century and that means revising the constitution and

by-laws as quickly as possible. The changes in the opening ceremony at

Gillette was a good start but more needs to be done. This new committee will

be used to provide the IP with the necessary recommendations to implement

change. If change does not occur then the lawsuit can proceed.
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Old 09-03-2010, 04:54 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuvite-F View Post
Frankly, based on the number of members of my unit who have either already left the WBCCI or plan not to renew this year, the disciplinary actions against Bob Thompson, and now Leo G, are the most divisive things the International Executive Committee have done in recent memory.....
I personally know Bob & Harriet T. that entire issue was ugly.

Quote:
This being the case, the essential outcome of the committee’s proposed reorganization must be a commitment to freedom of speech and the elimination of political abuse of the grievance process, including, retroactively, application to the reinstatement of Leo G.


For clarity “freedom of speech” is the right, guaranteed by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, to communicate ideas and opinions without government intervention. I believe you may be referring to speaking freely (or posting) without externally imposed restraints, even this forum which is liberal does step in at times. If not this would be Air Anarchy, or should we protect anyone’s offensive speech or only the right to freedom of opinion and expression.


The issue may be should any club at a committee level be involved with enforcing/interpreting a members written or spoken words.

The problem in the above party’s cases is not what they said in the grievances filed, but the grievance committees’ broad interpretation of the wording “disharmony”.

The club needs to have a way to oust really bad folks, I don't think you want your family sitting at the camp fire with a sex offender etc.

There is a grievance section in RONR which should be sufficient. This will be reviewed.

I realize this will not make many happy campers, retroactive reinstatement will not happen, it’s not in the bylaws or RONR anyplace.
It wasn’t Leo,s message, he’s a plethora of info and stats, as much as it was and still is, his visceral delivery with colorful name calling.

The club does read these forums.

Quote:
Comes now our present International President who is quoted elsewhere as saying, “My personal interest is to make the Blue Book more user friendly, to reduce the bulk, to review Standing Committee Job Descriptions, and to identify impediments to "fun, fellowship and adventure" - all the while retaining the essential character and the traditions of the WBCCI, including the Code of Ethics.”
.
To me, the words, “retaining the essential character and traditions of the WBCCI, including the Code of Ethics” mean, “We reserve the right to toss anybody who doesn’t agree with us out of the club”.


The COE doesn't throw anyone out it is its reference by the grievance articles.

Well I can see your point, but that’s subjective as to what that means.

However, speaking with Norm Beu he very much wants changes to happen as does his successors.
As you saw him on the cover of the BB sans jacket and tie is the way he talked straight and to the point
He wants this committee to succeed and change the course of this club to be moving in the right direction with a balanced budget.

Everyone on the committee has the same goals, none are paid and in fact we will be out of pocket for our expenses and several hundred hours of our combined time. We’ve been reading thru the RONR (Roberts Rules), a quick read only 600 pages.

The committee members are doing this to revise the Constitution and bylaws, not just crossing the T’s and dotting the I’s.

Don’t have time now, bit busy (preparing for hurricane Earl) I will explain briefly what that means since no one has yet figure it out in post # 61


Tks for your recommendations






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Old 09-03-2010, 09:22 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
  • Completely eliminate present constitution ok, it needs an update! (1)
  • Eliminate grievance system agree a good idea
  • Eliminate paper version of newsletter Yes all communications need to move into the 21st century using the most advanced tech available.
  • Require all rallies to be self-supporting
Please elaborate on the rallies please.

The suggestions below need more explanation. (2)

  • Dissolve the IBT and replace with a council of presidents(COP) (unit presidents).
  • All business currently conducted by the IBT to be handled by the COP via internet based meetings.
  • COP to designate a chairperson to conduct business meetings. This chair to have no authority beyond this single role.
Thanks for your input.


.
(1) Nope, it needs a complete rewrite with only the bare minimum of structure to support operations (i.e. rallies and caravans).

(2) I should think it obvious, but here it is: doing this would strip the club of the bloated and completely unnecessary superstructure/ruling class. It would also make the club more responsive to the general membership. All power to make decisions not voted on by the general membership would be voted on by officers no higher than the unit level.
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:45 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
  • Eliminate paper version of newsletter
Actually, I agree with this one only half-way. We do indeed have members who are not into the internet. That said, I think even those people might realize that a new age of communication demands new means. To that end, I'd suggest that all publications coming from Jackson Center be made available to members electronically for free; those who require paper copy would be required to pay an extra fee for them. (At least one unit already does this.)


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Old 09-03-2010, 11:53 AM   #65
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Please elaborate on the rallies please.
What needs elaboration?
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Old 09-03-2010, 12:35 PM   #66
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For clarity “freedom of speech” is the right, guaranteed by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, to communicate ideas and opinions without government intervention.
For clarity, "freedom of speech" is a long and deeply held tradition of western civilization—see for example, Voltaire, who held forth long before the United States came into existence. The First Amendment is just one embodiment of this tradition, a very important one, to be sure.

The point is that punishing a member of the WBCCI for freely expressing his opinion—and by a secret tribunal, at that!—is deeply repugnant to many American citizens, who happen to be members of the WBCCI.

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The club needs to have a way to oust really bad folks, I don't think you want your family sitting at the camp fire with a sex offender etc.
Another red herring. Of course there needs to be a mechanism for getting rid of really bad actors. But the mechanism should be proof against political abuse.

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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
I realize this will not make many happy campers, retroactive reinstatement will not happen, it’s not in the bylaws or RONR anyplace.
First, Section 2-H of the Bylaws gives the Executive Committee the power to “affirm, overrule or modify” the recommendation of the Ethics and Grievance committee. Go read that section and see if you see any time limit.

The point is that the Executive Committee is the final arbiter of WBCCI disciplinary actions and can essentially do whatever they want. Also note that overriding of judicial decisions by executive branches is prevalent in common law; governors of states and the President of the United States can, and commonly do, pardon convicted felons.

But second, if in the collective wisdom of your panel of august parliamentarians, you conclude the Bylaws don’t give the Executive Committee that power, you can recommend the Bylaws be changed to give it to them. That sort of thing is the purpose of your committee, is it not?

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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
I realize this will not make many happy campers, retroactive reinstatement will not happen.
Que sera, sera, but in the context of WBCCI, “unhappy campers” translates into “unhappy former members".

My reading of the tea leaves leads me to believe that the expulsion of Leo G may well be the iceburg to the WBCCI’s Titanic. Actually that’s not a good analogy—the Titanic was seaworthy before it hit the burg; the WBCCI’s decks are already awash.

Best of luck with the hurricane.
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Old 09-03-2010, 03:52 PM   #67
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John, thanks for your questions and ideas, I realize what you want but it’s not possible thru the club IMO.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets
The club needs to have a way to oust really bad folks, I don't think you want your family sitting at the camp fire with a sex offender etc."
Another red herring. Of course there needs to be a mechanism for getting rid of really bad actors. But the mechanism should be proof against political abuse.
There are many possibilities to do that what do you or anyone else suggest?

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets
I realize this will not make many happy campers, retroactive reinstatement will not happen, it’s not in the bylaws or RONR anyplace.
Quote:
“Bylaws gives the Executive Committee the power to “affirm, overrule or modify” the recommendation of the Ethics and Grievance committee. Go read that section and see if you see any time limit.”
Time limit doesn't come into play.

It was reviewed at the time the appeal was heard in June.

That’s it, case closed as far as the club was concerned.

All appeals have been exhausted, therefore, his expulsion is Res judicata, meaning a case in which there has been a final judgment and is no longer subject to appeal.

The only relief someone could seek is outside the Club.

Quote:
The point is that the Executive Committee is the final arbiter of WBCCI disciplinary actions and can essentially do whatever they want.
As long as they act within the bylaws & RONR, I suppose you’re correct.

Quote:
Also note that overriding of judicial decisions by executive branches is prevalent in common law; governors of states and the President.....
But they can’t act without authority.

Quote:
But second, if in the collective wisdom of your panel of august parliamentarians, you conclude the Bylaws don’t give the Executive Committee that power, you can recommend the Bylaws be changed to give it to them. That sort of thing is the purpose of your committee, is it not?
Yes if it is the collective consensus.

There is a two year waiting period, commencing February ‘10
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Old 09-03-2010, 04:03 PM   #68
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by eubank View Post
Actually, I agree with this one only half-way. We do indeed have members who are not into the internet. That said, I think even those people might realize that a new age of communication demands new means. To that end, I'd suggest that all publications coming from Jackson Center be made available to members electronically for free; those who require paper copy would be required to pay an extra fee for them. (At least one unit already does this.)
Lynn, makes sense, just some rough stats, of 6,000 members only 3800 have emails.

How about mandatory or strongly recommended wording on the application, adjacent to the box to fill out

Option 1. Publish (to have it for members to contact listing in the Membership Directory.

option 2. Not published (only for club business)

I think that would get the about 5500 out of 6000 emails

Those declining paying an extra fee.

This could be detailed for folks that don't fully understand and withhold their emails for fear of spam in the BB.

Good idea

We need to get the club
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Old 09-03-2010, 04:13 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondocker View Post
What needs elaboration?
Simple, name the specific rally(s)

Quote:
  • Completely eliminate present constitution ok, it needs an update! (1)
  • Eliminate grievance system agree a good idea
  • Eliminate paper version of newsletter Yes all communications need to move into the 21st century using the most advanced tech available.
  • Require all rallies to be self-supporting
Please elaborate on the rallies please.

The suggestions below need more explanation. (2)

  • Dissolve the IBT and replace with a council of presidents(COP) (unit presidents).
  • All business currently conducted by the IBT to be handled by the COP via internet based meetings.
  • COP to designate a chairperson to conduct business meetings. This chair to have no authority beyond this single role.
Thanks for your input.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondocker View Post
(1) Nope, it needs a complete rewrite with only the bare minimum of structure to support operations (i.e. rallies and caravans).
I want to answer this question detail in a day or two, ok?
Need to check something

Quote:
(2) I should think it obvious, but here it is: doing this would strip the club of the bloated and completely unnecessary superstructure/ruling class. It would also make the club more responsive to the general membership. All power to make decisions not voted on by the general membership would be voted on by officers no higher than the unit level.
WOW, how do you propose the entire board votes themselves out of office?

unless you have some plan can't see that passed, have a plan, why would they want to?

I would think the other part of your suggestion about having the membership having more input maybe worth exploring.
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Old 09-03-2010, 04:23 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Simple, name the specific rally(s)


I want to answer this question detail in a day or two, ok?
Need to check something

(2) I should think it obvious, but here it is: doing this would strip the club of the bloated and completely unnecessary superstructure/ruling class. It would also make the club more responsive to the general membership. All power to make decisions not voted on by the general membership would be voted on by officers no higher than the unit level.

WOW, how do you propose the entire board votes themselves out of office?

unless you have some plan can't see that passed, have a plan, why would they want to?

I would think the other part of your suggestion about having the membership having more input maybe worth exploring.

Which specific rallies? All rallies, but the international boondoggle is first on the list.

Do I propose the entire board vote themselves out of office? Yes, I propose precisely that.

Why would they want to? I guess that would depend on motive for having sought office now wouldn't it. I suggest that if the goal was to serve the membership, then it shouldn't be to hard to give up office in return for a better structure. If one is in office for other reasons, then maybe not.

The suggestion about having the membership have more input may be worth exploring? Delighted to hear it may be worth exploring.
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Old 09-03-2010, 04:24 PM   #71
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Quote:
It was reviewed at the time the appeal was heard in June.

That’s it, case closed as far as the club was concerned.

All appeals have been exhausted, therefore, his expulsion is Res judicata, meaning a case in which there has been a final judgment and is no longer subject to appeal.

The only relief someone could seek is outside the Club.
BINGO!!! Give that man a cigar! Now you just hit on what was the point of the lawsuit. A group of 50 or so supporters raising money to hire a lawyer to have the issue addressed outside of the club until you withdrew it on your own initiative in exchange for your seat on the committee. But the only thing in your case Bob is that you didn't join the effort to vindicate Leo or have the IBT's misdeeds addressed, you didn't have any silly romantic notions of idealism or justice, you just seized the effort as an opportunity and waved it with a war hoop using supporters' money and the threat of a lawsuit as ransom againse the IBT, negotiating until you won yourself a committee seat, at which time you systematically disposed of the team mates and that pesky Leo as a trouble maker and deserving of expulsion, but still holding onto the money collected for Leo's reinstatement in case you could use it again against the IBT if you think you could get even more leverage of the sacrifice of the heros stupid sock puppets. Already shining up to and sashaying around the IBT brass immediately and making an almost seamless transition onto the committee's committee. Are you comfy now that you are sitting pretty? What, your duty to supporters? What, your friendship? Oh they'll be fine that bunch of naysayers should quit their whining. Show some gall!
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Old 09-03-2010, 04:29 PM   #72
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someone serving at this CALIBER of committee should understand HOW the machinery works...

as i recall the HOME OFFICE only keeps ONE version of the member list.

so OPTING OUT of anything (printed directory as an eaxample)...

results in NOT being on ANY of the wb' mailing lists...

no bb, no renewal notice, nothing.

so ANY simpleminded suggestion about customizing the member list OR info...

requires BIGGER more BASIC tweaks first.

and it has also been demonstrated that the private club mailing or EMAIL addresses...

can be used for MASS spam mailings...



cheers
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Old 09-03-2010, 04:32 PM   #73
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Norm Beu told me that for a programming cost of about $800, the BB mailing list could be modified to eliminate those members who did not want a mailed copy. He also told me that there was not enough money in the budget for this one time cost.

Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
someone serving at this CALIBER of committee should understand HOW the machinery works...

as i recall the HOME OFFICE only keeps ONE version of the member list.

so OPTING OUT of anything (printed directory as an eaxample)...

results in NOT being on ANY of the wb' mailing lists...

no bb, no renewal notice, nothing.

so ANY simpleminded suggestion about customizing the member list OR info...

requires BIGGER more BASIC tweaks first.

and it has also been demonstrated that the private club mailing or EMAIL addresses...

can be used for MASS spam mailings...



cheers
2air'
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Old 09-03-2010, 04:37 PM   #74
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Norm Beu told me that for a programming cost of about $800, the BB mailing list could be modified to eliminate those members who did not want a mailed copy. He also told me that there was not enough money in the budget for this one time cost.

Bill

UNbelieve'n-able bill

ok not really, since they need a cash reserve in case someone ON a commitee goes rogue

perhaps the DWjustincasewewannasue fund...

could loan'em the money...



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Old 09-03-2010, 04:43 PM   #75
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Quote:
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Norm Beu told me that for a programming cost of about $800, the BB mailing list could be modified to eliminate those members who did not want a mailed copy. He also told me that there was not enough money in the budget for this one time cost.

Bill
Bill, I would be willing to have one of my employees do it for free, that way there's no stumbling blocks about budget. He manages 400,000 emails.

It should be a fairly straight forward fix.

I suggested the same thing for our clubs forum......but that's another story

When things need to get done in this club why can't a call go out for someone that may have the ability to do certain tasks?
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:02 PM   #76
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...when things need to get done in this club why can't a call go out for someone that may have the ability to do certain tasks...
because of the rulz book bob and PROPER approach 2running da'ship...

there is accountability and process, so that NO ONE simply takes over...

perhaps these r foreign concepts...

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Old 09-03-2010, 05:11 PM   #77
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Question

While we're on the subject of work to be done that can't be done effectively by volunteers and must be contracted out?

In order to be cost effective rather than giving that contract without bid, we have a minimum of three competing bids sought and the lowest bid gets the work.

This should be done for basic office supplies in it's simplest case to an ad agency.


Earl is starting to get close, trees are bending the worst is due at 11, may lose power?
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:11 PM   #78
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Bob,

Why don't you let him know. Let us know if you can obtain access to the source code of another companies software to make changes.

By the way, has Norm managed to get your banishment from the WBCCI forums reversed?

Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Bill, I would be willing to have one of my employees do it for free, that way there's no stumbling blocks about budget. He manages 400,000 emails.

It should be a fairly straight forward fix.

I suggested the same thing for our clubs forum......but that's another story

When things need to get done in this club why can't a call go out for someone that may have the ability to do certain tasks?
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:23 PM   #79
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Bob,

Why don't you let him know. Let us know if you can obtain access to the source code of another companies software to make changes.
Not what I mean at all, there are many ways to do this tiny email list, I don't know what they use, but if it is a type that requires the vendors staff to change, that's the type that shouldn't have been acquired in the first place.

But I don't know the specifics do you?

Maybe less expense to add a second software at a lower cost to have better results.......all just a guess



Quote:
By the way, has Norm managed to get your banishment from the WBCCI forums reversed?

Bill
No, it's not simple, plus availability of people perhaps holidays etc.

Should hear something next week?


.
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:37 PM   #80
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Bob,

I am not a computer guy and I am not privy to the interworkings of the WBCCI, all I know is what I am told and from that I make a decision as to whether or not it makes sense.

As I recall, Tom Collier told the membership at the Florida State Rally that members would have the opportunity to opt out of mail delivery of the BB in a couple of months through a blow in post card in one of the issues of the BB. A few months later I asked why I had not seen the post card and received the response from Norm Beu. Nothing new has happened to date that I know of.

This is indicative of how slow changes are made in this organization, and you think that your committee will make real changes by next June?

Bill

PS: the Labor Day holiday on Monday, September 6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Not what I mean at all, there are many ways to do this tiny email list, I don't know what they use, but if it is a type that requires the vendors staff to change, that's the type that shouldn't have been acquired in the first place.

But I don't know the specifics do you?

Maybe less expense to add a second software at a lower cost to have better results.......all just a guess



No, it's not simple, plus availability of people perhaps holidays etc.

Should hear something next week?


.
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