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Old 09-27-2010, 10:03 PM   #1041
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Old 09-28-2010, 09:46 AM   #1042
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Not to point out the obvious here, but the MetroNY unit is still comprised of entirely people who are members of the WBCCI. Put simply, these are all people who are dues paying members of the existing organization. If these folks won't even given you your money back, why would anyone expect them to be the long awaited catalyst for change?

There won't be a lawsuit. The committee won't change anything. Why not either accept the WBCCI--warts and all--or just leave? I just don't understand how any social club can be so important to people that they will spend this much time and energy banging their head against a wall.
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Old 09-28-2010, 11:33 AM   #1043
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Leo,

Said to hear that news.

One must ask, "Why do they think they have the right to hold the money?"

That is just wrong!!
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Old 09-28-2010, 06:36 PM   #1044
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We all signed up on SaveWally and pledged our money to support MetroNY in their lawsuit to bring about changes in WBCCI. I'm not sure of the legality... but when you say you are going to do something and don't do it, to me that's a breach of a contract. I see no logical reason to hold our money and we are demanding it be returned to each and every member or non member the full amount that was pledged. Hutch309
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Old 09-28-2010, 07:45 PM   #1045
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........................ I'm not sure of the legality... but when you say you are going to do something and don't do it, .........................
I'm not up on the law and maybe Gene will weigh in to clear this up, however, it seems to me that taking peoples money and not doing what was promised puts them into danger of patent or copyright infringement charges from congress. I bet they guard that racket pretty tight.
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Old 09-28-2010, 08:01 PM   #1046
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I'm not up on the law and maybe Gene will weigh in to clear this up, however, it seems to me that taking peoples money and not doing what was promised puts them into danger of patent or copyright infringement charges from congress. I bet they guard that racket pretty tight.
Sad but true- and VERY funny.
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Old 09-28-2010, 08:10 PM   #1047
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"Why do they think they have the right to hold the money?"
First, because they can. A few hundred dollars won't justify an interstate lawsuit, and

Second, now that Bob is on a first name basis with the IP, they're probably holding the contributions as evidence for a round of grievances to be filed against those members who had the temerity to contribute.
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Old 09-28-2010, 08:51 PM   #1048
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A PM from LIPETS

Based on my post of saying I didn't understand what right the Metro NY Unit has to keep the money based on Leo posting they were keeping the money for an "Indefinite" amount of time, I got the following PM from "LI PETS" of which he said at the bottom that "If you wish to post that U may". So, I will.

"Leo,

Said to hear that news.

One must ask, "Why do they think they have the right to hold the money?"

That is just wrong!!

-----

Don't be sad it's all lies, that's not what happened at all.

He wasn't there.

In a meeting on 9/25 it was stated that pro rata refunds of all contributions will be made upon a favorable outcome of the presentation of the Revised Bylaws following the MidWinter meeting in Texas.



If you wish to post that U may
.



.
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To that, I say, I don't see the difference!

Leo stated an "indefinite" amount of time. Have they given a date/time when the money would be returned? When is the next Metro NY business meeting that would allow the members of that unit to vote on the release of the money or can the execs of the unit decide that on thier own?

If on looks what "indefinite" means: I'd say what Leo is saying and Bob is saying is the same. There is no date say like 01/15/2011 the money will be returned.
in·def·i·nite

   /ɪnˈdɛfənɪt/ Show Spelled[in-def-uh-nit] Show IPA
–adjective 1. not definite; without fixed or specified limit; unlimited: an indefinite number.

2. not clearly defined or determined; not precise or exact: an indefinite boundary; an indefinite date in the future.

I also got a phone call from someone about my posting saying depending on what happens at the mid-winter IBT that the lawsuit could move forward. Based on that I told them they will have a very hard time after all this of ever getting anyone to give money for that.

Time will tell. I hope all is made right in the end.








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Old 09-28-2010, 09:15 PM   #1049
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A partial quote from Paul's comment, attributed to LIPets: " In a meeting on 9/25 it was stated that pro rata refunds of all contributions will be made upon a favorable outcome of the presentation of the Revised Bylaws following the MidWinter meeting in Texas."

I would like to know what "a favorable outcome" means and why it is to come following the midwinter meeting. Wouldn't any favorable outcome be at the meeting?

Bill
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Old 09-29-2010, 09:39 AM   #1050
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Since the question was asked—is there an enforceable obligation to return the money in whole or part?—I will tell you why I can't answer it. I have posted this before, but apparently the heat generated blinds everyone.

It appears solicitations were made to certain people asking for donations along with a statement of some sort concerning a lawsuit. Not having seen the solicitations (please don't send me any) and not knowing what promises may have been otherwise made to a group or to individuals, I do not have a basis to know whether some sort of enforceable agreement was made.

There have been assertions that donations were made in exchange for a lawsuit. I do not know whether that is true or partially true or not. Obviously all involved have different perceptions of the matter.

Donors who make contributions to nonprofit organizations sometimes believe the terms of the donations required the organization to use the funds for certain purposes and no other. Donors have not fared well in these lawsuits. Whether a donation is restricted or not can be difficult to discover and the bias is toward interpreting them as unrestricted. This is not quite the same thing as it appears the "organization" accepting the funds was an ad hoc group that may be considered an unincorporated association, not the usual nonprofit. But this group may have had lawyer's advice in crafting the solicitation—it may have been good or bad advice. The solicitation may have been sloppy or not.

Notice how many times words like "appears", "may" and such appear above—there's a lot to know and it may look different for different people.

For further learning, your local law library will have treatises on contracts that you no doubt will find fulfilling. The adventures of the parol evidence rule and promissory estoppel await you.

Why are the funds being held in escrow? I don't know either, but it may be because it is believed that the threat of a lawsuit is sustained by the money in escrow and that the WBCCI will not respond unless the threat is still there. This is not irrational, but has never been explicitly stated by whomever has the keys to the escrow account. The irony of this is that if the money is returned, the lawsuit will not happen, but if the money is held in escrow, maybe there will be a lawsuit. Further, some eventual outcome may be better than could be obtained by a lawsuit.

But since trust levels are below zero, the situation is untenable. If I were on the IBT I would be breathing better after hearing of this thread.

If there a solution? A group of disinterested individuals could manage the escrow and decide what to do about it. Bob could be replaced on the committee of damaged reputation by someone universally respected. I have no idea who is above all this and could make it happen. Good luck.

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Old 09-29-2010, 10:12 AM   #1051
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Not to point out the obvious here, but the MetroNY unit is still comprised of entirely people who are members of the WBCCI. Put simply, these are all people who are dues paying members of the existing organization. If these folks won't even given you your money back, why would anyone expect them to be the long awaited catalyst for change?
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There won't be a lawsuit. The committee won't change anything. Why not either accept the WBCCI--warts and all--or just leave? I just don't understand how any social club can be so important to people that they will spend this much time and energy banging their head against a wall.
The mechanics of this relationship are a lot like being married, where one partner believes they have rights which they would deny to the other so they constantly fight for the rights to the spoils. In this case, how to enjoy your RV. The love / hate relationship continues until one wins and the other relents. The threshold of amicability is different for different couples, some have the tools to negotiate what they want, and others need counsel.

Relative to the organization at hand, all of this is playing out like a daytime soap and that is why it has so much appeal and continues day after day. For many, it’s not just enough to travel in their RV, there has to be melodrama to make it exciting. I've played the game as have most of the posters to this forum. The reality is that we all secretly want to be in control of this org and we can't because they got there first!

We all have choices, get divorced or negotiate a lasting settlement! Sometimes it’s just easier to go with the flow and wait for nature to take its course! It looks to me that over 5000 members have taken this course. So we have to ask, what's wrong with us? Why are we fighting the status quo? Most of what happens at the top never affects the guy at the bottom, until they make a motion to be part of the system then if you have different ideas about how things should be managed, peer pressure to maintain the status quo is severe.

We have all seen what happens when we try to change an organization from the outside and I personally know what happens when you try to change it from within! The answer is one that many cannot accept, Move on, join another club or start your own! In either case make a decision and live with it!

If you need counseling, get some, you'll be glad you did!
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:24 AM   #1052
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A partial quote from Paul's comment, attributed to LIPets: " In a meeting on 9/25 it was stated that pro rata refunds of all contributions will be made upon a favorable outcome of the presentation of the Revised Bylaws following the MidWinter meeting in Texas."

I would like to know what "a favorable outcome" means and why it is to come following the midwinter meeting. Wouldn't any favorable outcome be at the meeting?

Bill
Bob or Howie have you the answer to Bill's question? I too would like to know what constitutes a favorable outcome or an unfavorable outcome. How can the committee not be successful other than by not making out the report for the IBT as requested?

I do not want to threaten or sue the WBCCI over whether the bylaws committee's items eventually become successful action or unsuccessful inaction, which obviously would take the course of several meetings (months/years) to ascertain and I also seriously doubt as Gene that the money for a lawsuit in escrow would have any effect whatsoever on proceedings. And I deeply resent that my contribution has been seized and held towards that spurious goal that only Bob will adjudicate over. I feel a responsibility over what my money is spent on and I want to withdraw my support just as MNY withdrew the lawsuit action and I think I should be entitled to do that.

I have a problem with receiving information from only Bob as that proved inaccurate in the past and continues to offer too many inconsistencies to be reliable. I don't know why the MNY unit has not responded to any contributers' e-mails or why MNY has not posted on this thread to comment since the IP's letter has directly contradicted and reprimanded their UP's letter as filled with falsehoods.

Why should we believe what you are saying this time or any time in the future?

We have the International President's word that Metro New York has lied to its contributors and we have that letter and the letter of MNY both right in this thread. What more does anyone need to make a case? We have Defend Wally team members that have never returned to make their statements about the lawsuit and address the contributors as was earlier promised. The writing is clearly on the wall.

The matter now in this thread is not of an impending lawsuit any more, but what of the contributors money and the misappropriation of funds. Nor is it about joining or quitting the WBCCI or the importance of not being snookied by those from the shore.
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:27 AM   #1053
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I have been following this thread since its inception. Initially I was hopeful that the lawsuit would be a catalyst to initiate meaningful change in the WBCCI. In the end things could not have turned out any worse.

The Defend Wally team and Metro New York have shown themselves to be no different than the IBT except that the IBT has more integrity. How Metro New York has handled themselves led by LI Pets is disgusting.

I now have no hope for the WBCCI because even if we get change it will only be superficial. We will have new people with different clothes (baseball caps instead of berets, etc.) but we will have only changed one set of dictators for another. Be careful what you wish for; you may get it. It seems like the future for Airsteam fun will primarily be found in AirForums, TAC, Airstream Life Aluminumpoluza, etc.

The one constant in life is change; nothing stays the same. The WBCCI could'nt or would'nt change with the times and has paid a price in not getting new members to join and remain.

I believe that there is no longer any leverage with the threat of a lawsuit because it would be very difficult for Defend Wally or Metro New York to raise further donations through the internet because of the ill will generated by not returning funds being held in escrow. Also the small amount of funds being held (excluding Metro New Yorks $2,000) against donors wishes has cost Metro New York and LI Pets a high price. In the eyes of many they have lost their integrity and that will be very hard to get back. It's like Toyota having its reputation for quality impaired. It will take a very long time to get it back.

It's sad the way things have turned out. Sometimes you have to stop throwing good money after bad and cut your loses. The time may have come for that with the WBCCI; it may be time to not renew membership.
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:36 AM   #1054
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Adding an opinion to points CrawforGene has posted for everyone's consideration.

There is a tactical reason to hold funds to use for a lawsuit. It's a threat. do this or we do that.

Problem in this particular case is that if a lawsuit were to go forward. More funds would be needed. We all know lawsuits are not free or cheap.

Could the current holders of the funds raise more money if needed? I really doubt it. The donor pool is on these forums and realistically is the pool that has watched this unfold from a lawsuit to reinstate wronged members into a committee seat apt to donate more money?

The sad part is that with transparency and communication between the donors and Metro NY et al. The donors may have agreed to deal or compromise with the WBCCI. That lack of communication and transparency has given the outcome the look of a backroom deal wherein one person appears to have placed themselves in a position at the expense of others.

This is a hard place to come back from.

Gene, I use words like appear and seems because I honestly do not know and can only comment on what brings me to my opinion.

In conclusion. It would be tactically prudent at this point to return the funds and possibly replace those that seem to have lost the trust of others. That way if in the future a lawsuit is deemed to be the proper course. It will have a chance of success as it would be untainted by the feelings and opinions many have now.

That's my opinion anyway.
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:38 AM   #1055
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I was one of those who decided to quit throwing good money after bad, and resigned several years ago.

Hoping that WBCCI could be saved, I donated to Defend Wally, only to discover now that they seem to be no better than the IBT.
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Old 09-29-2010, 12:40 PM   #1056
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Isn't this just great! The IBT wins again not because their smarter or have more money but just because they are unified in their position and the opposition isn't. Like the country song goes! "That's my story and I'm sticken to it!" The IBT is sticking to their mantra!

As I said to the Board in our meeting of June 2004, this need for change will not come at them via revolution it will come via evolution! This is what I believed 6 years ago, Out with the old and in with the new slowly, change is a generational thing. I got emotionally caught up with the energy of great expectations. But just like in Vegas when you place your bets on a long shot, there is risk, so was the lawsuit! I knew it as did others! And to expect a refund? Well its almost like goin to the store where you bought that lottery ticket and asking for your money back. If we get one so be it, I've gone on record as asking for it back!

Whatever the outcome! I have spent a lot more on going places and meeting people and having a good time than on any tool to enforce my view of the world!

Leo! I like the new "service"! Since most working airstreamers like to stay close to home this idea could take off regionally and in some respects has already with similar groups and websites. The Idea of an independent service is one that could appeal to many. Will it replace are deplete the WBCCI? Only time will tell!

As for all the rancor, give it a rest and go back to focusing on fun and let the present goings on play themselves out! I have a feeling you won't be able to, but then again there is always hope!

Stay well and we'll see ya down the road!

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Old 09-29-2010, 01:06 PM   #1057
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Not quite, imho. There was no lawsuit filed. It wasn't that we took our chances and lost. We just never got our ticket! Just like you I felt it was a gamble, but one I was willing to plunk down my money for, for the fight with the IBT leadership over misdeeds of discrimination in voting and grievance and forum sanctions. And the money hasn't been spent, it is still sitting there but now under MNY's control. It never was their action. It never was Bob's action, obviously from the complete turn around of his priorities in first seeking Leo's reinstatement and then now saying the effort was never about that. The possibility of being thrown over for someone's own opportunity supposedly from our side didn't even occur to me... It is NO different to expect Defend Wally and MNY to be fair and square and hold them accountable just as we expected the IBT to behave fair and square and to try to hold them accountable. It has been pointed out that the negotiation that was touted in exchange for withdrawing the lawsuit never occurred and yet we should shake the dust off and walk away and say, "Oh well?" Being cheated and lied to isn't an appropriate risk that contributors should assume from those managing the funds.
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Old 09-29-2010, 03:57 PM   #1058
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CJ,

All valid points but how long do you torture yourself and the perpetrators and at what point do you say uncle. Anyone who has plunked down their money and didn't get satisfaction or the value from it that they expected, certainly have a right to complain as well as feel entitled to some recourse.

If you feel empowered to make that happen, have at it! This entire thread and the hundreds before it are littered with the tales of unhappiness from tens of folks who wanted nothing more than to have a good time with like minded folks on the road in their Airstream.

The fight is over because the aggrieved has moved on. Despite the accusations of wrong doing I believe in the end the local club in question will do the right thing. Again I'm taking a risk, but at this point that risk is minimal. We all know who they are and we all know where to find them. Once they come to the realization that the supposed leverage they believe they have is not there, you and I will be getting an early Christmas present!

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Old 09-29-2010, 04:21 PM   #1059
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Thumbs up

WAM, quite right, you are. I like the Christmas present idea and it's all just sitting there in safe keeping earning us bonus interest! I wonder if they will send out quarterly statements. It's just a bit disconcerting that my e-mails to the same unit president and also the treasurer have gone unanswered and the DW team has disappeared. But you are right we know exactly where they are and where they will be, not that I intend to personally try to extract it from them. New Hampshire people do have that cool motto though don't they? I tend to think there is a lot of common sense and priority to that. I will concede to the gentleman from New Hampshire.
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Old 09-29-2010, 04:47 PM   #1060
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