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Old 09-19-2010, 02:21 AM   #1021
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Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
Just to squelch any rumors I just want to let everybody know what happened with SaveWally and why.

I did indeed shut down the SaveWally web site and forums. I am the domain name owner and have hosted the site since its inception. Sever people have collaborated on the site over the years but it has been principally an effort of just 2 people. SaveWally was started by the simultaneous efforts of myself, Leo G. We have had the support of a few other like-minded people who were opposed to the name change issue back in 2006. Back in the day we settled disagreements with Rock – Paper – Scissors contests back. Those days are certainly over! SaveWally has always been an open place for communication – anything goes there as long as it generally was in the direction of forwarding a progressive view of the club. I am proud to say that only one act of moderation was ever exercised on the SaveWally forums.

Over the years there have been several attempts to shut down the forums, namely by representatives of the WBCCI who sought to block our message with threats of trademark & copyright violations (which could not be proved or enforced) to outright lies (stating that we were hosting child pornography on the site). We persevered despite these efforts because we had a unified message that could not be denied. Sure, a few folks are dancing in the streets right now with this news. But they will be celebrating prematurely in my humble opinion.

I did this because SaveWally has diverged so far from its original purpose that the group has no validity anymore. The back and forth arguing between people who were (and likely still are) friends has only served to weaken the SaveWally movement to the point that it became a group to be laughed at rather than the group who was mumbled about under cursed breaths in front of an open microphone at a delegates meeting.

SaveWally has gone a long way towards its goal of educating the WBCCI membership to the issues at hand within the club. It was a clearinghouse for an opposing point of view to the myopic expressions of the IBT who would seemingly scuttle the clubs 50+ year history for the sake of a few friends who don’t respect the great Wally Byam name or the grand history of the largest Airstream only club in the world.

I would like everybody to know that I did not do this under threat of litigious action of any sort, nor for reasons of protecting my position as the 3rd VP of the Vintage Airstream Club. I did this because I was sick and tired if seeing friends pull me one way and another to pull posts and remove people from the site. I will not do that. And rather than allow myself to be stretched like spaghetti, I elected to just close it all down. Some people were not happy about this decision while others understood and accepted it.

There is one final message I would like to deliver and that is about Leo G and my years of working with him on WBCCI issues. Leo has an amazing ability to search out facts and build an argument against a position like the name change issue, the MOHO issue and budgetary concerns that would normally escape the average member.

Where Leo’s greatest fault lies is perhaps in his presentation – a bold, in your face, no holds bared expression of the facts. Many have disagreed with him but I have always seen his message as spot on. I do not see where anybody could argue that the club is spending money like it is going out of style for example. The message was so potent that the club immediately started taking action to shore things up. Leo’s messages may be spot on, but his presentation sucks! In fact it is bad enough that on many occasions, several of us would have to edit his message down to make it seem less angry and more on target. The message is always there, but sometimes it had to be coaxed out.

I think that Leo's message was so on target that the WBCCI sought to remove him at all costs. The WBCCI’s efforts to remove Leo from the club were what I believe to be a very calculated move on the club’s part. I do fully believe that there was a concerted effort by the last administration in the WBCCI to get Leo out no matter what. What with the documented promises of back-up grievances if he was reinstated speaks volumes to just how much the club wanted him out. Nobody has gone as far as Leo has to expose the inner workings and fallacies the club leadership has pushed on the membership of the club.

In my humble opinion, the club has only weakened itself and accelerated its demise by kicking Leo out. They did it to preserve their way of doing business and in doing that have only guaranteed the club will not last as long as Wally had intended his trailers to last. The club is going down day by day. And with honoring the opposing points of view about where we are and where we are going, we are guaranteeing the myopic tour straight to hell for the club.

I hope Leo does eventually get reinstated to the club without exception and threat of immediate backup grievances. I hope the club can take a look at the message, rather than the presentation for a change, and make a decision that will truly ensure the history of the club will not be denied for the sake of a few who no longer fit the demographic of this Airstream Only club.

For the future, I will be opposing any action by the club leadership that seeks to bring any SOB motorhome into the club. I will be pushing back against any efforts that seek to deny the Wally Byam history that this club was founded on. Without Wally and his sister, Helen, this club would not exist. Anybody who seeks to deny that history by changing the clubs name or diluting it with a box SOB will be in my sights. I may not be as dynamic as others like Leo in my presentation but I will still fight with all my heart any effort that goes against the singular brand nature of this club. And, I will not be alone in this fight. Give me Airstream or give me death!
Thank you for the explanation and thank you for all your efforts.

Thanks, Dan
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Old 09-19-2010, 03:53 AM   #1022
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Tim,
I only hope that you will participate in providing a forum to help us expose the falsehoods that are brought forward by a closely connected inner circle who seek to run the club for their own personal goals and to pamper their egos.

Most of the current leaders have a good heart and intentions but lack any business training or successful business management experience. Most of them are long term WBCCI types that have labored long and hard for years to reach the offices that they have achieved. The structure and traditions of the club requires that. Because of the long years of succession, this makes the top leaders older and more set in their ways. They have come to enjoy the way things are and are out of touch with the younger generation of potential new members.

This truly is a club of volunteers, but unfortunately they are inexperienced at what they are attempting to do. Great leaders surround themselves with a council of professionals to assist them in those areas, where they lack specific knowledge. Running a successful club, in today's market requires skills and an understanding of what the younger people want from their club. The leaders must realize that any club belongs to the members not the leaders. To be a leader, you must be out ahead of the crowd, but also need to be moving in the same direction as the crowd, to remain a leader. Today, members will not spend their hard earned money renewing their memberships, unless they feel they are receiving a fair return (in terms of benefits) for the money they are spending. The club must offer benefits that have value to the majority of the membership.

The 23% non-renewal rate, after the first year of membership, tells me that the club has failed to provide the benefits those members had expected to receive. The club needs to fully explain to potential members just what they can expect to receive by becoming members of the club and then deliver on those promises. The 43% non-renewal rate in members that have signed up as Mal's tells me that they have been oversold the "product" and have quickly found out the WBCCI lifestyle benefits are not for them.

We need leaders that seek out the benefits that are desired by the younger potential members entering the RV lifestyle and restructure the club to address those needs, if we are to survive into the future and preserve those values that were core to Wally Byam's vision.
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Old 09-19-2010, 04:47 PM   #1023
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I was able to find out what really happen.

Norm called up someone and in his “Darth Vader” voice said the following:

“I am your father. Come to the dark side with me and we can rule the WBCCI forever”
Actually, it reminds me more of the old 50's late-show science fiction thriller, Invasion of the Body Snatchers . The aliens stuck people in these big milkweed pods full of bubble bath and after a brief metamorphosis the victims came out with blank expressions, explaining the advantages of being aliens.

How else can we explain Bob's lawsuit-lawsuit-lawsuit rhetoric abruptly changing into committee-committee-committee?

Now I'm beginning to wonder if Tim hasn't done his stretch in a pod.

My gosh. . . those big aluminum pods we all have. . . you don't suppose. . ?

All I know is, if a long time friend comes out his Airstream with a blank expression on his face, trailing bubbles and mouthing gibberish like "6,000 happy members". . .

Be afraid. Be very afraid. . .
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Old 09-19-2010, 06:18 PM   #1024
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Originally Posted by Nuvite-F View Post
Actually, it reminds me more of the old 50's late-show science fiction thriller, Invasion of the Body Snatchers .
Or that Grindhouse thriller, They Saved Hitler's Brain.

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Old 09-19-2010, 08:01 PM   #1025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
Just to squelch any rumors I just want to let everybody know what happened with SaveWally and why.

SaveWally has gone a long way towards its goal of educating the WBCCI membership to the issues at hand within the club.....

Tim,
Thank you for providing your side of the story without all the hyperbole so often found in the postings from these treads major players.
So many of us “lurkers” read these WBCCI boards with a mixture of wonder, horror and disgust concerning the state of affairs within the Club. Yet, despite all the calls to action feel powerless to affect any meaningful change.
I think many of the progressive members lack the time, resources or inside knowledge to decipher the dark, inner workings of the entrenched hierarchy. We look to you, and so many others of similar mindset, to bring sunlight into these discussions.
While being registered at Save Wally I never posted. I generally concurred with the sentiment but never made a comment feeling I lacked any significant background. The anonymous Internet echo chamber effect is perpetuated by the “Yeah, what he said.” post without any substance behind it.
It appears to me that most of the current members, and even those who have left out of frustration and/or principle, want the Club to succeed in the long run.
Keep on fighting the good fight. Believe we’re behind you even though we may never say;
Thanks.

Tom
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Old 09-19-2010, 09:53 PM   #1026
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Thanks Tom! Believe it or not, there are a few out there who have expressed via email how wrong I was and how much of a bad guy I am for shutting it down. Like by doing that I didn't support the home team.

SaveWally may come back, but if it does it will be under new management. I however am going to focus my attention on the Vintage Airstream Club and any effort to bring any SOB motorhome into the WBCCI. You may see a new web presence pop up for that if the IBT REALLY decided to push that steaming pile of dog dung our way again.
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Old 09-20-2010, 12:51 PM   #1027
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Moderator hat on - again:

Several posts have been removed from this thread today. After some review the site team has a clear belief that these recent posts are simply more bickering between a few members and this MUST stop. While we are all members here at AIR because we share a common interest in Airstreams, some are intent on rehashing old gripes and engaging in endless finger-pointing. It's time to stop eating our young!

The closure of savewally has returned all these club governance topics to AIR and we are very concerned with the potentially toxic nature of these discussions to the community. Please help us keep these conversations productive, positive and moving forward without rancor. If you have a dispute with an individual - take it somewhere else. Use e-mail or phone but do not use this community to attack another.

Moving forward on these various WBCCI lawsuit, new committee, new name, etc threads we are going to monitor posts with an eye to civility. So before you post, read our rules. Pay particular attention to these sections:

Be Courteous!
Be Appropriate!
Be Ethical!

and this: We take the "be nice" rule VERY seriously! We do not tolerate ANY rudeness.

Finally, report any post that you believe is a problem but do not be surprised if the mod team disagrees with you. We have had a spate of folks contacting the mod team trying to run their own agendas by pointing out what they perceive to be rules violations. As a last resort we will be issuing official warnings for posts that we believe are a perpetuation of these afore mentioned issues.

Remember: Think before you post; do not post in anger. If you are unsure about the tenor of your response to a post, go polish your trailer before hitting send and then review.

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Old 09-20-2010, 01:21 PM   #1028
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Remember: Think before you post; do not post in anger. If you are unsure about the tenor of your response to a post, go polish your trailer before hitting send and then review.

But make sure you have saved it somewhere because if you 'time out' your post will be lost and you will have compose the thing again.
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:30 PM   #1029
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Re Janet's post. Thank you for the voice of moderation (both meanings). There is no good reason for discourse to be carried out at full, shrill volumn. Anything that needs to be said can be said in a civil way and if it can not be expressed that way it likely does not need to be said at all. So, do what needs to be done in the knowledge that the majority support you.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:37 PM   #1030
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Maybe the mods could transfer all the nasty posts to The Argue Thread: http://www.airforums.com/forums/f161...ead-60297.html

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Old 09-20-2010, 04:48 PM   #1031
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Gene that might take out all the mystique! Posts gone can be larger than life. Don't be a kill joy. However I must have been snoozing to miss all the angry shrill nasty posts that are gone. Man I miss everything!! I really must try to pay attention better.
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Old 09-20-2010, 08:25 PM   #1032
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Gene that might take out all the mystique! Posts gone can be larger than life. Don't be a kill joy. However I must have been snoozing to miss all the angry shrill nasty posts that are gone. Man I miss everything!! I really must try to pay attention better.
Yeah, me too, last I knew, well... Oh boy, and then! But no, that couldn't have been it. I mean, we were laughing so hard about some of the comments.

Ohhhh, maybe that's it, the laughing at the outright silliness...

OK, so no more laughing, Carol, OK?
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:47 AM   #1033
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Or that Grindhouse thriller, They Saved Hitler's Brain.

Gene
At least this got past the mods.

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Old 09-21-2010, 11:52 AM   #1034
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I guess the obvious question is: What's the point of the thread now? There is no litigation on the table, or even a remotely credible threat that a lawsuit may be filed. At this point, everyone seems to have made a decision as to "who's zoomin' who." Some people feel vindicated in their character judgments; others seem to feel betrayed. To me, the announcement that a committee has been formed sounds a great deal like the dolorous bellow of a dying elephant.

As H.G. Wells said, "Adapt or perish, now as ever, is nature's inexorable imperative." Only time will tell whether or not the WBCCI is adapting quickly enough to survive as an organization. While I know it's not nearly as entertaining as speculating... but why not simply wait and see?
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Old 09-21-2010, 11:55 AM   #1035
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..... the dolorous bellow of a dying elephant
Well, there is a turn of phrase you dont hear everyday.
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Old 09-21-2010, 12:30 PM   #1036
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I'm waiting to hear whether -- ---- is going to be allowed to sit on this new committee after the tall tales and yarns he spun and disharmony he promoted here.

If the IBT really wants this committee to succeed, they need to place on it members with enough history with the WBCCI to know what the ---- is going on, who also have integrity, credibility with members and demonstrated human relations skills. Nothing less will do.

Maggie
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Old 09-21-2010, 01:33 PM   #1037
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maggie,

Yes, that's the question of the hour, isn't it? If the committee stands as is, then it should be pretty clear to everyone where it will lead.
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Old 09-22-2010, 10:17 AM   #1038
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Even better still, I have to wonder of the three remaining, how many of those actually knew that there NEVER was a negotiation with WBCCI leadership, leading to the appointment of a committee seat in exchange for withholding litigation?

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So, who are the three remaining?? Is it established fact that others have been removed? Who would make these decisions?
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Old 09-22-2010, 10:41 AM   #1039
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Red face

Yea, sorry I didn't make that clearer. Only 2 incidence of moderation ever happened on SaveWally that I can remember. One was a person we outright removed from the forums because the person was a plant who was trying to post false and unverifiable information about another person and these postings had nothing to do with the issues SaveWally was working on.
But we did work together as a collaborative effort to produce collateral and we did a ton of fact checking behind the scenes to be sure we had our facts straight before presenting our information. We did read and suggest changes to letters and collateral that others were producing for SaveWally.

Yes, I made a mistake in saying Wally's Sister rather tha Wally's cousin. It was late and by the time it was pointed out to me, it was too late to fix it. of course I know better. I was in a hurry and just typed the wrong thing.


Quote:
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I'll take just two exceptions to Tim's post... First only team messages had the opportunity to be edited. We worked on these as a group before they were posted or fliers were made as in the "What about (fill in name here)?" series during the SOB MoHo campaign. These were official SW messages, stances on the issues. Nobody had the opportunity to edit my daily messages, unless I specifically asked for a review before I posted. Out of the 3-4K's worth of posts over 4 years, regardless of what the team might have thought about them, those posts were all mine, unedited...



Tim, had yours been a group message, that would have been the first correction...

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Old 09-23-2010, 07:37 AM   #1040
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"Even better still, I have to wonder of the three remaining, how many of those actually knew that there NEVER was a negotiation with WBCCI leadership, leading to the appointment of a committee seat in exchange for withholding litigation?

That could be the most telling part of all, right there...

originally posted by 65GT"


Begs the question, though, was it offered up by the doer.

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