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Old 08-24-2010, 08:49 PM   #801
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Thumbs up Buzzkill Alert!!

"So you are in and Leo is out isn't that a conflict of interest since you were working on his behalf? So we learn Beu picked you did the Defend Wally supporters choose you"

Bob is in and Leo decided to go another way is what I saw in the email notification. Why is it such a big deal that Bob was chosen? This is an attempt at coming to terms and getting what I think most of us wanted in lieu of proceeding with the costly possibly unsuccessful law suit at this time.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I think having a seat at the table that rewrites the rules is just fine. If it doesn't work out, that suit can and should go forward, if (as it has been pointed out) there is a club to save.

Defend Wally and Metro took an action where no one else had...... AND AT THIS LATE HOUR I MIGHT ADD. The urgency here is due to the inaction of others in the past. Putting up money is part of the equation, there is work to do and I guess disgruntled naysayers to deal with as well.

What was put forth here is an effort for ALL OF MEMBERSHIP to weigh in and change the rules as WE SEE FIT. This seems good since we have yet to spend our time and money working our way through a lawsuit to achieve what more? WHAT MORE COULD BE HAD!!

"Fine negotiater you are you can't keep from insulting the supporters"


From what I can see, no one should be insulted and the response didn't quite appear to be coming from a "supporter"

YAY.... let the fun begin
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Old 08-24-2010, 08:55 PM   #802
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No Spin Zone

No spin here.

Bob, I have nothing against you personally. I’m sure you did what you felt was best for whatever reason. I just think many/most will look at this “agreement” of you being a “committee member” to this new committee as a WBCCI IBT/EC7 (1) DW (0). Again, no spin just how I think people will react to the announcement. No spin there.

If you want to call me a “story teller” that’s fine, I know what I know and I know when I knew it and nothing you say will change that. Again, no spin there.

AGAIN still more than willing to give my pledge when I get the info requested and not until then, I don’t think that’s much to ask from a guy that’s willing to cut a check for $250.00 (or some pro-rated amount). Give me the info and you get a check. No spin there.

I hope you enjoy your new found position in the WBCCI world. I’m sure you are looking forward to it and you should be. I hope it all works the way they told you it would. No spin there.

I’m sure all of the suggestions that are giving by members to this new committee will be looked at by the IBT/EC7 and many will be put into place then we will all be singing campfire songs. (Lot’s of spin there)

I don’t know about others, I paid my WBCCI 2010/2011 dues back in late July early Aug. even after hearing about the deal with a committee chair thing. No spin there.

I wish things had worked out differently, they didn’t, time to move on. Like others, each year I will decide if I want to pay my dues. I can say good-bye at anytime. My choice no spin there.

So Bob, good luck to you and the “new committee”. I hope you are able to make the needed changes that are necessary to keep this club alive into the future. I just think like all the “new committees” before this one, nothing will change and the WBCCI IBT/EC7 will continue you run people out and away from the club. No spin there.


Enjoy,
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Old 08-24-2010, 09:14 PM   #803
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Ooohh. The wailing and gnashing of teeth. Rantings and recriminations.
Who, aside from the major players, among the myriad of Members posting here have relatives as lawyers, close family members and friends who have worked in the profession. Who've been defendants in a civil suit, or for that matter, even been on juries in civil and criminal matters?
I hear about and have personally experienced these maneuverings time and time again.
For those who wonder why it’s taking soooo looong to file?? This isn’t an episode of Law and Order with a neat conclusion in 1 hour. I’m guessing it’s only about 1/3rd done, if that.
In my opinion, the main point of the suit was to whack the WBCCI mule between the eyes with a 2x4 to get its attention. It seems to have worked. Whether or not it will start pulling the load or kick you in the ass remains to be seen. It’s easy to forget, with all of our self-engrandizing, that we’re just a little social club with odd ball trailers and a bloated bureaucracy.
I just came back from a very enjoyable Unit Rally. I’m going to sit back, enjoy the show and work on the trailer for the next outing. When the time comes to vote, no matter how marginalized, I’ll vote my conscience and hope the winds of change blow in a favorable direction.
OK, I'm done now. Couldn't hold back any longer.

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Old 08-24-2010, 09:41 PM   #804
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This seems to be a trying and emotional subject.

Please keep in mind that not every poster has the same goal or opinion and we must as a community must respect and understand that.

Can the posters to this thread please keep to the standards of Airforums?
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Old 08-24-2010, 09:58 PM   #805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nasons View Post
...During the course of preparing the law suit, Defend Wally/Metro NY was contacted by WBCCI. Discussions began, and eventually centered on withholding the lawsuit in exchange for appointing a representative from Defend Wally/Metro NY to sit on a newly created “By-Laws Revision Committee.” This five member Committee would be tasked with consolidating and incorporating changes to the club’s Bylaws and Constitution. Encouraged by this turn of events and intent upon having a seat at the table to institute positive change within WBCCI, Defend Wally/Metro NY has decided to withhold filing suit in the hope that changes in the club can be achieved amicably through this new Committee...
as others have noted, what a joke.

basically the NYbraintrust worked backward ~4 years to a committee.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...son-25104.html

and we can all GUESS about the time when this happened...

(check the thread for when the TUNE changed by the appointed...)

or is that anointed one ?
________

it's really NOT surprising who was chosen,

since the tactics USED in this thread

suggest a near PERFECT MATCH to the ibt' bully approach

so long used toward 'lesser' members.

what an incredible joke,

but at least there are threads that FIT in terms of topic/heading also from years past...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...ers-28508.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...ety-20813.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...nal-31379.html
________

i completely understand how/why leo would choose NOT to compromise,

it's called having PRINCIPLES.

the REAL concession and sign of REACHING OUT would have been to place HIM on ANY committee.

at least he has READ and understands the current bylaws

and HAS worked at rewriting key elements...

while THE appointed has proven that...

IF you scream about LEGAL ACTION for at least 4 years, u might get attention...

((see post 39 here, then go BACK and read #22))

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...tml#post311618
________

clearly NOT the same committee

but rene E (communicator here on the forums ) was SO MUCH BETTER qualified to handle member input...

and she REALLY has/had worked for change, regardless of the actual success or outcome.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...-it-29898.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...ret-28599.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...nce-20747.html

one of the things i REALLY DO MISS related to the wb' threads from 2006...

is the INTELLIGENT exchanges contained IN those 4 year old threads...

lots of DISagreement without much DISrespect for those with ideas...

and like mistral blue suggests,

this CURRENT stuff has clearly become a farcical tangle of characters and events.

jeez

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Old 08-25-2010, 06:51 AM   #806
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Hope

I have Hope that our club can be saved.
I have Hope that the reasonable people selected to this committee will bring needed changes.
I have Hope that the newly formed committee will get the support they deserve from those of us who legitimately want to see changes implemented so our club will survive.

Bob and others have worked hard. Harder than most will ever know. I Hope that reasonable heads will prevail and Give Them A Chance.
Thank you, to all of you that gave the time from your family, hours of cell phone minutes, meetings and just time from your lives to bring us to the table.
I Hope our club survives.
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Old 08-25-2010, 07:34 AM   #807
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We have been betrayed by the gutless!

The results from this committee will be just like the results from the 2020 committee. There may be some rat sh** little things that make their way through the IBT, but the rest of it will be arm waving and delay tactics.

Just look at the list of results from years of 2020 recommendations. The IBT implemented a number of trivial items. Anything that would really change things was killed on the spot or assigned to a committee to die a slow death.
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Old 08-25-2010, 07:49 AM   #808
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John what path would you have preferred and forecast your anticipated results please
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Old 08-25-2010, 07:57 AM   #809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 62overlander View Post
When you pay a lawyer a retainer, you do not get a refund.
Not true Frank. A lawyer can only charge for the work done and must return any retainer that he (or she) has not earned.

Now, back to the main event.

It's true that this thing is not over. Lawsuits are about dispute resolution. One party believes they have been wronged and aren't getting anywhere, so they sue. The process is full of standard actions (complaints, motions, discovery) and sometimes creative lawyering, but it is supposed to be about solving the problem. It is like diplomacy gone bad and war breaks out. The idea of filing and pursuing litigation is to create pressure on the other guy and make him believe you have a good chance of winning (winning can mean a lot of things, of course), or you're going to badger him into some sort of solution.

Sometimes an agreement is made before or during litigation for the parties to participate in some sort of structure (call it a committee, task force, action group or whatever) to resolve the dispute. If litigation has not commenced there is less pressure to actually settle the dispute. The lawyers aren't spending the parties' money and a judge isn't telling everyone to settle it or move the process along. There's time and money pressure to force agreement. It's similar to locking everyone in a room without bathroom privileges.

After a suit has been commenced, the lawyers will handle a lot of the negotiations—since the parties don't know how to solve the dispute or they would have. Lawyers are supposed to deal with it rationally (I know that is not always the case, but it should be) because the parties are too emotional and subject to things that never solve anything—such as name calling, bluster, anger, etc. When the costs mount up and the parties start to understand what the realistic possibilities are, then the lawyers can solve the problem as best can be under the circumstances.

This is not the situation here so far as I can tell. Perhaps joecolao is correct and reasonable heads will prevail and his hopes will be realized. I hope so because it seems the WBCCI is worth saving. However, the process chosen has fundamental weakness and with so much distrust of the principals (the people involved, not principles), it will be hard to reach any sort of resolution accepted by many.

Yes, the soap opera continues.

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Old 08-25-2010, 08:14 AM   #810
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At this point I don't think most of us have enough info to truly evaluate this situation as we are not privy to what the discussions have been or whats on the table. Hopefully that will change.
There is no denying that committees have been consistently unsuccessful in the past. No one on those on those committees was in a position to wield a 2 by 4 either. I am assuming the results from the committee are not binding?
I would favor letting the talks go on as litigation is expensive and time consuming for all concerned. Presumably these talks are going on now . By midwinter IBT time I would think there would be concrete proposals that could be acted on. If there are not significant changes at that point then it might be time to reactivate the lawsuit.
My donation was based on the hope that the major problems of the WBCCI could be solved by whatever action was needed. That $100. was only 1/2 of what I could have paid for hookups at the International had I chosen to go.

I favor allowing a little time to see how this plays out.
I also don't have enough facts regarding the situation regarding Leo so will wait for more input. I personally would like to see him re instated but respect his right to go what ever route he chooses
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Old 08-25-2010, 08:18 AM   #811
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wow you people are very negative.......

I am amazed at the amount of people that categorically just trash something new without even giving it a breath of a chance.....oh yeah we know about the 2020 committee and how lame it was etc etc and we know that they haven't listened before blah blah blah but for god's sake can you not see that maybe just friggin maybe one thing could change and that could be the beginning. (a seed is all that's needed ) Once positive reinforcement begins it could be quite contagious..........and who knows maybe another thing could be changed and so on............
You naysayers should have your own little seminar or better yet start a whole new lawsuit that would get something done...(good luck with that) and see how many other units join you? How many joined Metro when they went on board with the lawsuit? zero. So you keep on pointing your fingers at Bob (I guess he is the current bad guy) and see how many are pointing back at you.
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Old 08-25-2010, 08:32 AM   #812
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casting a vote to let the "process" take place

When I reading that yet another committee was formed to meet to the EC7, rather than proceeding w/the lawsuit I too felt disappointed, disgusted, etc. The EC7 has passed up multiple opportunities to "hear and proceed" from input from committees (2020 & others). But, I do agree that perhaps this time there is more leverage--either listen & act or get prepared for the lawsuit. We also gave our donation of $100 in lieu of being frustrated by attending another International...so here's hoping CHANGE is coming.
Victoria & Joseph
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Old 08-25-2010, 08:37 AM   #813
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This has become a bad reality show that grows increasingly bizarre.

The kind of extraordinary challenge facing WBCCI is a threat to its existence – even more so in that this new strategy appears to be trying to address problems in the same fashion in which they were created – from the top down.




Perhaps this is another unwelcome observation – but from the outside looking in – it is incredibly apparent – at least to me – that any effort to successfully address WBCCI`s challenges absolutely dictate:
  • a resolution be arrived at from the bottom up – not from the top down
  • a resolution be arrived at through a process that proceeds with absolute transparency and diligence
  • a resolution be arrived at through a process of consultation and involvement of the WBCCI membership.
  • a resolution be arrived at that recognizes there are no sacred cows – WBCCI is likely to go through much more than a simple make-over – it`s vision, mission, structure and operating mechanisms all need to be questioned and validated - by the entire membership – or changed.
The process being suggested does none of this.


Thanks,




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Old 08-25-2010, 08:41 AM   #814
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skip the legalesse, as useful as reading it might be...

there was no lawsuit,
there is no lawsuit,
there will be no lawsuit.

what happened was THIS LONG THREAD.

with some1 NOT willing to be 'elected' up the ranks or WORKING years for the club...

buying a ticket at the table.

that's really it, nothing else.

oh, yeah MONEY was solicited here and spent.

THAT MONEY was apparently spent for "legal council"...

in other words ADVICE was purchased.

the advice and months of threatsngyrations posted here...

results in a new committee.

with one of the 'advice getters' on it...
_________

game set match, fat lady sings, pull da plug, cue roy and happy trails 2u...

porky pig sez...

Click image for larger version

Name:	committeenews.jpg
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ID:	109323

as pointed out repeatedly NOTHING useful for the MEMBERSHIP has happened.

money was collected from the MANY and spent for the benefit of the FEW to buy a place at the table ...

wait that's how club dues are handled in the wb', right?
________

except for 2-3 posts from howieE...

this thread wasIS a ruse.

cheers
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Old 08-25-2010, 08:42 AM   #815
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Quote:
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The kind of extraordinary challenge facing WBCCI is a threat to its existence – even more so in that this new strategy appears to be trying to address problems in the same fashion in which they were created – from the top down.

The process being suggested does none of this. Jay
It most certainly does, but first the constitution and bylaws need to address that process.

It can't be done as the bylaws stand.
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Old 08-25-2010, 09:27 AM   #816
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Leo, thanks for your input and clarification.

That this lawsuit crashed and burned before it was filed may ultimately have been about the big $$ needed to pursue it. $7500 could be eaten up just in putting a complaint together and getting it filed. Them who are listed as Plaintiffs are ultimately responsible for paying those legal fees at the end of every month. Oops--I think I expressed that very concern back in the beginning.

I have to hope and believe that the IBT/EC7 have read and heard enough of members concerns to seriously look at making needed changes, lest this club also crash and burn. Whether the new committee is going to be effective remains to be seen. All members should do what they can to give it a good and earnest try, IMO.

Bob, you have not been the coolest, most rational and reasonable of heads here. No more pounding of fists and stomping of feet allowed. Get thyself together, please.


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Old 08-25-2010, 09:39 AM   #817
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this thread wasIS a ruse.
But, if so, a pretty good one as it got money from contributers, some action (I'm not saying good action, useless action, bad action of whatever, time will tell on that), lots of ego stroking and posturing, soap opera, and illusions upon illusions.

What were the real goals of the litigation group? To get on a committee? Win a lawsuit? Complain? I don't know and I don't even know if they knew.

There's a strategy somewhere, perhaps well- or ill-formed, and whether the committee approach is a clever tactic or not, I don't know. Perhaps the litigation proponents knew they didn't have enough money to proceed any further and this was the best they could get. Using this Forum to promote doubt and fear in the WBCCI leadership is also a good tactic.

Watching from the outside this mystery wrapped in an enigma (apologies to W. Churchill) is a guilty pleasure akin to watching a collection of grindhouse movies (I ordered an 8 movie collection from the '60's for $12 on Amazon last week—might be better than this thread when they finally arrive).

The committee may or may not do something. If it fails, what next? Or, more importantly, what now? Despite the system set up to prevent change, grassroots organizing to take over units and regions would put pressure on the top dogs. Grassroots organizing is a lot of work, but would put pressure on all involved to get things changing.

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Old 08-25-2010, 09:48 AM   #818
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Funny way to treat a new commitee member

I do find it funny that less than five days ago the WBCCI Website/Forums Commitee members treated a new By-Laws/Constitution Commitee member in the following way:

"Upon login to the Wbcci forums this popup blocker appeared!

You have been banned for the following reason:
Permanent Ban

Date the ban will be lifted: Never

Time for these two guys to step down, I call for their resignation.

Members need access we pay dues for this treatment?????????"


Not sure how we will be able to discuss the issues of the WBCCI on the WBCCI forums when the one of it's new commitee members will "NEVER" be allowed to sign-on to that website again. I guess they didn't get the memo from Norm!







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Old 08-25-2010, 09:54 AM   #819
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Not surprised or "Pro se can you see"

I'm at something of a disadvantage. After 2+ years here, I have a total of two people on my "ignore" list; they are both posting on this thread.

I presume the IBT/WBCCI has legal counsel and someone from the D&O carrier telling them to sit down and try to work this out. It's the old "COD" or "cost of defense" problem. Even a frivilous lawsuit is expensive to defend against. The IBT hasn't given up anything, i.e., agreeing to binding arbitration. There's virtually no risk in giving someone a seat on a committee that has no direct authority to change anything. Making an effort to settle helps the case if a lawsuit occurs. Judges like to see people make a good faith to work out things before they occupy the Court's time... and the preferences of the Court have a funny way of manifesting themselves at trial.

I am bit surprised--after all of the rhetoric--that the potential "plaintiffs" rolled over so quickly and thoroughly. A seat on a committee? I think a good attorney would have been able to get a greater concession, particularly if the legal case had a whit of merit. To me, committees are an "elephant graveyard." It's where good ideas go to die.

As for the sturm und drang, I really don't understand. A number of people (including my friend, Gene) have tried to caution against high expectations for the mythical lawsuit. We have pointed out--in great detail--that the real issues of the IBT and WBCCI are cultural. They aren't something litigation, even if successful, is likely to fix. While communication between the disaffected and the leadership is a good start, both sides must be willing to compromise and change. Even under the best of circumstances, this isn't easy.

Whatever happens, the WBCCI is likely to shrink further. If the old guard holds the line, the club will lose more "new guard" members. If the IBT concedes and compromises, some long-time members will depart. I don't know how you have one club that makes both groups really happy. And given the fallout of the Great Committee Concession, it doesn't seem like "kiss-and-make-up" season.

I suspect some of the consternation is due to the high expectations for the lawsuit. I further suspect that some of its proponents created the impression that their amateur legal acumen would cut through the IBT like a hot knife through butter. I'm not privy to any of those conversations, but it seems some folks feel "played."

We're all adults here, folks. There's been plenty of information about the long awaited lawsuit and many perspectives represented here. As the saying goes, "You pays your money; you takes your chances." If you are unhappy with a particular individual, I very respectfully suggest it's better to address the person individually rather than gather up the torches and pitchforks on this thread.
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Old 08-25-2010, 10:04 AM   #820
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Not sure how we will be able to discuss the issues of the WBCCI on the WBCCI forums when the one of it's new commitee members will "NEVER" be allowed to sign-on to that website again. I guess they didn't get the memo from Norm!
One of the negotiated items needs to be the problems on that web site.
All these problems could probably be solved, or at least greatly reduced by 2 actions.

Re establish the WBCCI forum on a club controlled site.
Remove the moderator priveliges of the person that controls the present site.

At that point perhaps there would be a possibility of meaningful discussion.
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