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Old 07-05-2010, 04:56 PM   #641
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Originally Posted by Ganglin View Post
Presuming the WBCCI has D&O/E&O Coverage. Once the suit is filed the carrier will take over defense and the costs involved.
Not necessarily, if the coverage exists, the insurance co will review the Complaint first, they will not pay for all acts.

Most D&O policies do not impose a duty to defend on the insurer. They do, however, provide coverage for defense costs and give the insurer the right to associate with the defense and approve defense strategies, expenditures, and settlements.

Many of the issues affecting coverage cannot be resolved until the claim has been resolved. Specifically, certain exclusions only apply after a finding of fact has been made. For example, policies generally exclude coverage for losses arising out of conspiracy. The exclusion only applies, however, where there is a final judgment finding conspiracy. Thus, where conspiracy is alleged, coverage is uncertain until the completion of the claim. In such situations, insurers may have an interest in not advancing defense costs until coverage is certain.

Joe is also correct some policy's are drafted as reimbursement policies.

All is this conversation is moot, if they have it great, if they don't they have the cash.

Based on their lack of business experience and being a club, it is more likely they don't have it.

We'll find out soon.




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Old 07-05-2010, 08:03 PM   #642
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Not necessarily, if the coverage exists, the insurance co will review the Complaint first, they will not pay for all acts.
No policy pays for all acts but surely some portion of the complaint will be viewed by the carrier as being a potential actionable coverage and that will trigger defense.

Most D&O policies do not impose a duty to defend on the insurer. Then you need a new D&O carrier - defense is included until such point that there is no possibility of a covered cause of loss. They do, however, provide coverage for defense costs and give the insurer the right to associate with the defense and approve defense strategies, expenditures, and settlements.

Many of the issues affecting coverage cannot be resolved until the claim has been resolved. Specifically, certain exclusions only apply after a finding of fact has been made. See above. For example, policies generally exclude coverage for losses arising out of conspiracy. The exclusion only applies, however, where there is a final judgment finding conspiracy. Thus, where conspiracy is alleged, coverage is uncertain until the completion of the claim. In such situations, insurers may have an interest in not advancing defense costs until coverage is certain. See above.

Joe is also correct some policy's are drafted as reimbursement policies.
Anything is possible in our industry - I suppose through some, as we call it, Shifting Sands Mutual substandard carrier. In 32 years at this I've never seen such a beast.

All is this conversation is moot, if they have it great, if they don't they have the cash. Agreed but the speculation versus facts confuses those who may read this thread. It encourages people to believe more may come of this than, my guess is, even the active participants in the suit hope to accomplish.

Based on their lack of business experience and being a club, it is more likely they don't have it.

We'll find out soon. I have no opinion on this suit and have expressed none. Everyone has to find their own path. It will be interesting to see the results and if the WBCCI plays the card I think they will.

.
(Disclaimer -the opinions I've expressed here are my own and may have involved speculation in response to what was viewed as speculation by others).
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Old 07-06-2010, 05:50 PM   #643
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I'm really TRYING to remain positive

Sometimes I think I'm just TRYING.

About half a century ago I read Winston S. Churchill's "History of the English Speaking Peoples". A few fragments remain. One was about Oliver Cromwell, who wanted to rule with the consent of the people... but asked after repeated failures to pack a compliant Parliament, "Where can I find consent?"

The IBT wants "consent" in roughly the same sense that Cromwell did.
The good news is that England survived Cromwell - and over Cromwell's dead body they invited Charles II to come back and reign. (Not rule, but reign.) There may always be an England... but the WBCCI?

I've honored my pledge and am supporting the lawsuit, because I want to put my money where my mouth is... However it seems to me that the only thing that will really get the IBT to snap into reality is to lose 1000 members in a single year. SO - I have my WBCCI membership card taped to the inside of my Airstream door.

Every day I look at it. Every day I ask myself how I'm going to "vote" come renewal time.
  1. I still work, I won't be a "caravanner" anytime in the near future.
  2. I am not afraid to spend money, but I like to get good value for what I spend. In high school one of the cool kids wanted me to do his homework for the year so he could stay on the football team - implying that I'd become "cool" because he'd date me. I didn't buy that story when I was 14. Now? Different clique - same story - still smells of rotten fish.
  3. I am willing to pay sales people commissions for growing our busniess - but anyone with three MONTHS of negative growth is going be looking for another Job. The much subsidized leadership of WBCCI has been leading us downward for how long?
  4. The Japanese lost many, many men in WWII because they didn't believe in retreat or even have the command in their book. They finally came up with the command "Advance to the Rear". Apropos WBCCI - there is the description of IBT leadership in a nutshell.
Reality Check.
  • A balanced budget? Well a stick or two got expelled from a behind or two didn't it? It is something.
  • I feel like the WBCCI is in the emergency room bleeding out - and the IBT is debating whether they should use Littlest Mermaid bandaids or Toy Story bandaids.... when the situation calls for the crash cart and six units of O Neg.
  • I want to care. But the IBT is still in denial that the club IS in the E/R bleeding out. By the time they call for the crash cart the body will already be in rigor - and the organs won't even be suitable for harvesting.
the decision keeps sliding toward writing an elegant epistle to every member of IBT and wishing them well - but by Allah - not with my money!

(by Allah - just to tick them off)

Give me reason to believe.....

Paula
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Old 07-06-2010, 06:01 PM   #644
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Gary has got it right. Some additional general thoughts, and the disclaimer that laws vary by state and insurance policies can differ.

D&O (Directors and Officers) protects them. Corporate liability protects the corporation. The policies may or may not be combined. It would unusual and probably never has happened, that an insurance company would insure against intentional acts—conspiracy would be one—or criminal acts. But if the complaint alleges something they insure against (negligence for example), they have a duty to defend against the other claims as well. They would not have to pay the portion of an award for parts of the suit they have not insured against, but are responsible for all defense costs. What is "intentional" is something that lawyers and judges can argue about endlessly. You can be covered for negligence, stupidity or carelessness.

Once you are served with papers, or have knowledge you will have a claim filed against you, you have a duty to inform the insurance company. If you don't do so in a timely manner, they can refuse coverage. Meanwhile, while they are deciding what to do, you may have retained lawyers. Once the insurance company decides to defend you, they may (1) pay your lawyers for the defense and reimburse for past defense, or (2) use house counsel who are salaried and may or may not be all that good, or (3) hire independent local counsel who have a long standing contractual relationship with the company. Since the WBCCI has had plenty of notice of a potential lawsuit, I presume they have contacted their insurer. Lawyers for them should be reading every word on this Forum that has anything to do with a lawsuit and all the posts by the likely plaintiffs. It is possible the WBCCI doesn't have insurance, but unlikely.

Insurance companies want to get the lawsuit over before legal costs mount up. The defendant may want to argue the case for all time, but if they don't do what the insurance company says, they could lose coverage or have to pay a large part of the award themselves—if there is a claim for money.

I'm unsure what the prospective plaintiffs are up to and think that money may not be involved from the corporation, but maybe from the directors and officers. Shareholders' derivative suits against for-profit corporations often involve a lot of money, but this is a nonprofit and I don't think a court would award money to plaintiffs in a members' derivative suit. If the directors and officers were told to repay some expenses they received, that would go to the corporation, not the members.

The interests of each director and each officer and the corporation may all be different. Each may end up with their own lawyer. Nothing like a score of lawyers trying to sort out things. The lawyers generally know what's going on and just want to find a way to resolve the case. The parties may want to fight and lose sight of reality—for them a lawsuit is therapy—and some lawyers get emotionally involved or need the money, and do not follow established ethical rules of the profession. That doesn't happen very often. More often there are genuine differences of legal opinion and that can take some time to sort out. For what it's worth, I was sued almost 2 years ago in a nuisance lawsuit looking to bring in as many people as possible as well as a nonprofit corporation I was involved with. My homeowners' policy covered it, but many homeowners' policies no longer cover much outside of the home itself. It was a pain, but I didn't have to pay anything except the emotional costs. One of the plaintiff's lawyers was suspended during the time this was going on for an unrelated problem. This was the kind of lawsuit that every other lawyer involved was disgusted with. It does happen.

To a large part the insurance company controls the defendants' case. The plaintiffs' lawyer has to keep the plaintiffs rational, not always a simple matter. The judge tries to keep everyone on track and will try to push both sides toward a settlement. Trials are rare.

One other thing—I haven't had to deal with federal jurisdictional issues for a very long time, but it appears this case may be filed in a federal District Court in NY. That seems unusual for this type of case unless there is a specific federal statute giving the federal court jurisdiction. I would think this type of case would be filed in the state court where the WBCCI is headquartered or incorporated or where an officer or director lives. I think a federal judge if he has any discretion would try to get rid of this case by sending it to a state court.

Gene
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Old 07-06-2010, 06:51 PM   #645
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Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
One other thing—I haven't had to deal with federal jurisdictional issues for a very long time, but it appears this case may be filed in a federal District Court in NY. That seems unusual for this type of case unless there is a specific federal statute giving the federal court jurisdiction. I would think this type of case would be filed in the state court where the WBCCI is headquartered or incorporated or where an officer or director lives. I think a federal judge if he has any discretion would try to get rid of this case by sending it to a state court.
Therefore you're a bit rusty
While I'm not going to state the claims at this time many are Federal exclusively, so State court has not jurisdiction.

Where WBCCI is headquartered is of no import they do business in NY.



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Old 07-07-2010, 04:13 AM   #646
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... is this suit ever going forward? International was the perfect time to serve them all of them and now it has come and gone. You could have used one server instead of having to track down them all down where ever they scatter to and hire many servers in many states. With limited resources, you need to make your money count.
But is this suit actually going to happen or is it still speculation? I am wonder, because I sure hope you are going to get on with it...
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:04 AM   #647
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Frank I didn't think you supported the lawsuit?

Please explain your position.
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Old 07-07-2010, 06:35 AM   #648
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I'm kinda feeling the same way as Frank. Is this suit going anywhere? I posted here some time ago asking about what's being claimed and what's being asked for and I was told I needed to wait and that all would be posted once the suit was put together. I've not searched back through the posts here, but I'm pretty sure it was at least 2 months ago that I asked. Anytime anyone asks what's the status, they are told that they can't be told.

A couple questions that should be able to be answered without breaking confidentiality of the suit:

1) Are sufficient funds available for the suit (I think the answer is yes, but just clarifying)?
2) Approximately when (date, please) will the suit be filed?
2a) When will the details of the suit (claims and requests) be made public at defendwally.org?

I'm still toying with the idea of a donation to the defendwally fund since I will have $65 to spare next year. But, I don't like to give my money to causes that I don't know what's going on or being asked for. If I wanted to do that, I'd just give my $65 to the WBCCI and not worry about how to get the darned red numbers of my trailer at the end of the camping season in Ohio.
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:22 AM   #649
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I was thinking the same thing as Frank a few days ago, but didn't post cause I didn't want to start the flame wars, but since it's been asked (again).....

It's a valid question. It's now been over 4 months and in that time, we've heard a lot of what's in the suit (which to me means that it was well underway back in March or April), yet here we are in early July, with all kinds of rhetoric still being posted here and of course little substance. Additionally, as was pointed out, the ringleader(s) of this suit were posting here feverishly for months and again as many in legal circles pointed out, any good legal "team" would have nixed that pretty quick, yet it continued and seems to still continue today.

Folks with far more knowledge than I (or IMHO the leaders of this cause) in terms of the legal system have posted here as well and have brought up great points only to have them quickly dismissed by folks who have far less exp than the folks posting their legal experience in these matters.

What is also interesting to me is that I get PMs every so often from one of the ringleaders of this cause by saying things like:

Quote:
Hey thanks for your stupid posts, each time you post we show up on the front page top of the list.

great PR
Mind you these same folks have publicly stated I am on their "ignore list".

All things considered, I am beginning to get the sense like many others that this cause is all a PR/smear campaign in and of itself. Though we've all read the saber rattling in many formats, to date there has been little action, and I too am doubting that anything will actually happen of any substance, if even at all at this point. I'm sure there will be a witty retort and dismissal of these questions by the folks leading this charge, but you'll also most likely note there will be little substance to these retorts.
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:26 AM   #650
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The defendants and their attorneys (are paid to read these posts) are following this forum which is why your questions can not be addressed publicly.

We are not avoiding the questions; suffice to say soon.

More issues to consider after the International meetings
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:29 AM   #651
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It takes time to carefully examine documented facts and what can be proven, get the wording of a complaint correct, and to research applicable statute/law/case law, etc., as no reputable attorney is going to file something that will be summarily dismissed once it gets before defense counsel and a judge. This likely did not begin in earnest until that lump sum retainer was gathered together.

From what the driving forces have been posting here on the forums, I believe it's coming.

Maggie
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:34 AM   #652
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+1.
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:53 AM   #653
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OK. I'll disappear back into my hole for 2 more months.
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Old 07-07-2010, 08:35 AM   #654
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The WBCCI losing 1000 more members will have far more impact than any the result of any litigation. As long as you keep renewing, Paula, there is no meaningful incentive for the IBT to change. If I were on the IBT and reading this thread... I certainly wouldn't be worried about an up-to-this-point mythical lawsuit. As for your letter, you might as well write it in Sanskrit. From everything I've gleaned, the IBT Board has a different reality than you... and they will until they lose another 1000 members. The world--as they see it--is 5900 happy members and 100 malcontents. You can increase the number of disgruntled members but the bottom line is you still have thousands of people paying dues every year. With the greatest possible respect, Paula, I gently suggest that the IBT has your consent.

Oh, and if you want to reread Churchill's "History," I have a copy on my shelf.
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:14 AM   #655
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If I were on the IBT and reading this thread... I certainly wouldn't be worried ........
If they weren't concerned why did they spend $20,000 * on their lawyers to monitor these threads?

*As reported at the Int Rally
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:30 PM   #656
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DISCLAIMER
I asked not in order to flame or harass. I asked because I want to know. "I" means me as a person, not the voice of the TAC that is...



I could be mistaken, I often am. I listened to the simulcast a great deal even though I am a "quitter", "malcontent" a "yahoo" and my absolute favorite, a "neanderthal" I just happened to hear the titillating part about moneys for legal expenses. The $20k of $29k was spent on kicking Mr Garvey out of the club and "it was money well spent" they said. So the money spent was directly a catalyst for the law suit now being under taken, or spoke of, soon to be under taken.

Frank I didn't think you supported the lawsuit?

Please explain your position.

I don't support your law suit. I think it a fools errand. I just want to see you guys do what you said and how you will be spending other people's money. I have always been very careful that when I challenge someone, that I can put muscle behind my words. Waiting to see the same happen here.
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:42 PM   #657
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Frank... I am shocked. I always thought of you as more a Cro Magnon guy.



If I had PhotoShop skills, I would have replaced the spear/arrows/pointy sticks with a rivet gun.

In the end, the litigation (if ever filed) won't matter. Whether the IBT successfully defends the status quo or the insurgents extract some legal victory... the decline of the club will continue. Of course, while both sides will claim some measure of victory (no matter what happens), the divisive battle will simply accelerate the downward financial cycle.
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:52 PM   #658
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Word count

Leo was expelled on the basis of 3 forum posts for a total of roughly 245 words.

The IBT spent $20,000 to expel him because they were offended by what he said'

That means they spent $81.63 per word, of our money to protect us from all this disharmony among members.

Does anyone feel better because of this??
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:52 PM   #659
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Frank I didn't think you supported the lawsuit?

Please explain your position.

[QUOTE=hampstead38;868897

In the end, the litigation (if ever filed) won't matter. Whether the IBT successfully defends the status quo or the insurgents extract some legal victory... the decline of the club will continue. Of course, while both sides will claim some measure of victory (no matter what happens), the divisive battle will simply accelerate the downward financial cycle.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for replying using more educated sounding words. I still translate in my head from grunts and groans into english...
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:20 PM   #660
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Rich

If they were looking to route out disharmony they sure as hell are getting their monies worth now. From the comments here and conversations with Members as I travel they have caused far more disharmony then Leo ever could have, not that he didn't try but with good intent.

If they could get this kind of reaction out of the Marketing money they plan to spend the club would have to split into sections from it's oversizeing.

Everything they are doing and saying is to protect their way of life of sucking the money out of the Club to maintain the "Free Ride" they believe they are entitled to.

Can't you just see one of the grand Boo Bahs driving up in a SOB Motor Home attempting to sell some young couple that just bought their first Airstream, on the benefits of joining the WBCCI. They could tell them if the play the game right and work their way up the ladder that someday they to could be being paid to ride around the country selling Snake Oil.

To some extent hampton38 is correct. Up until now they could care less as to what the "Mere Members" had on their minds. Well the Mere Members have gotten together and now want the explanations that have not been available in the past. If we are paying them over a $100,000.00 a year to grow the Club and they are loosing over another $100,00.00 a year in that attempt it is time to put the brakes on. And I don't mean just changing the bases on the trophies to plastic and not waring white gloves but some real changes.

Paula, and takes for your support, and many others want to save what they believe the WBCCI should be, a Club for the benefit of Airstream owners. The Leadership also wants to save what they believe in, a Free Ride off into the sunset. If we were all to just quite, as often suggested, they would have maybe another 3 to 5 years of the Free Ride. Pity the sucker that is 6th on the list having played the game this long and gone out and bought a new SOB Motor Home and then to be on the bottom of the list at FMC.

I for one don't have to give any thought about quitting. If this foolishness prevails my expulsion letter has already been written. They are just hoping they can get it sent before the next postal increase and take credit for saving the Club 4 cents. Every little bit helps.
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