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Old 05-14-2010, 01:23 PM   #481
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Originally Posted by joecolao View Post
Constructive criticism from non-members is also appreciated.
I guess it depends how you define "constructive". It doesn't appear to me that criticism of any kind is entirely appreciated. Criticism by someone you support often gets excused while criticism from someone who disagrees with you, however minor that criticism may be, seems to be magnified.

It's certain to me criticism on the internet is a whole lot less painful than criticism and drama from family.

Last week David Brooks wrote an interesting column about the difficulty of changing an institutional culture. This is about the army, but the lessons could apply to any hidebound organization: Op-Ed Columnist - Leading With Two Minds - NYTimes.com

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Old 05-14-2010, 01:27 PM   #482
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I'm not posting here for you, Joe. Your mind is made up, as is Bob's. My interest in posting is to offer an alternative perspective to members of the Airstream community who have been asked to support this litigation financially.

I'm not defending the WBCCI; I'm just not drinking the lawsuit kool-aid. What I see you, Bob and others doing is engaging in wishful thinking via the legal system. My irony meter is also pegged because I see you and Bob engaging in some of the same defensiveness, misdirection and selective understanding you accuse the IBT. The plan here--as far as I can--is on par with South Park's Underpants Gnomes:

Phase 1: Sue IBT
Phase 2: ?
Phase 3: Better WBCCI

Sorry if the South Park reference is a bit esoteric, but I'm just tragically hip.

If you can convince bright, thoughtful people like Gene you have a viable plan, legally and organizationally, I might completely change my mind on this litigation. So far, though, I'm not swayed. Worse, the general approach makes me feel like the new and improved IBT won't be that different from the old.
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:12 PM   #483
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Hamp & Gene I'm not going to continue engaging you two peas in a pod you're just

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Old 05-14-2010, 02:43 PM   #484
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I'm not up on these "emoticons," Bob. Is that beating a dead horse or spanking an ass?

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Old 05-14-2010, 02:54 PM   #485
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WBCCI Board Lawsuit

The article written by David Brooks "Leading with two Minds" parallels what problems we are having with management of WBCCI.
As a past member of the IBT I found it totally frustrating in get add value for the membership when I was on the board..
I support what Savewally is doing. However, I sincerely hope it will not go to court as the financial cost to both side will be costly, I know, since I went through a lawsuit through no fault of mine. Now that both side of this issue has come to the forefront, now would be a good time to arrange a meeting satisfactory to both side and make changes that everyone is satisfied with. LETS NOT GO TO COURT.
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:56 PM   #486
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Hamp & Gene I'm not going to continue engaging you two peas in a pod you're just

Bob, if you read our posts carefully, you'll find we don't agree on everything, and then you may notice we don't attack one another for disagreeing.

Studies show that spanking is harmful and causes anger issues in the spankee. It also reflects unresolved anger issues in the spanker.

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Old 05-14-2010, 03:39 PM   #487
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Studies show that spanking is harmful and causes anger issues in the spankee. It also reflects unresolved anger issues in the spanker.

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That may not ALWAYS be the case.

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Old 05-14-2010, 04:15 PM   #488
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every year 4 the last 5/6 years this group has trumpeted some issue in the months prior to the international rally...

the issues may have SEEMED to be important to the wb' long term survival but aren't.

name change
voting
allowing rebadged mohos IN
nominations from the floor...

and now THIS years theme...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
...I'm 99.999% certain the lawsuit will reinstate Leo...
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...tml#post845389

the quote above essentially is the solitary POINT of this "lets play in the courtroom" nonsense.

a unit has some1 THEY LIKE getting booted and they are trying to alter that outcome.

that's all this is (along with the cry for money and REdirects to other sites)...

the players haven't changed in all this time but they have picked up a few new folks along the way...

BUT have LOST a lot more who were ONCE genuinely interested but now see through this SELF-involved stuff.

the PROOF of that is that this thread engages SO FEW

and the folks primarily engaged aren't and haven't ever been PART of the wb' action.

that's ENTIRELY OK, the mental exercise is good for somethin',

but the fact that SO FEW current/former or POTENTIAL wb'ers post here...

sez a LOT.
__________

years ago when some of the REST OF US who were members pointed out the financial iceberg

and cultural issues leading to the EXIT of so many members...

these same folks SHOUTED us down with their OWN ONLY VISION of the issues...

for example THOR was the cause of all ills then, along with MAL content members.

NOW it's the bobble heads and the bylaws and when in fact THESE have LONG been issues but were ignored till now...

there is NO plan for re organization, NO theme for fixing the club

and no REAL club changing issue at the base of this thing...

it's all about the QUOTE above and this group is otherwise LOST and directionless ...
__________

there are many problems with the group pushing this sideshow and here are just a couple...

1. they've been crying about the sky falling for SO LONG that it is no longer interesting to most who have heard the crying EACH YEAR...

2. they refer to ANYONE who argues with the fundamentals of THEIR issues as "hecklers" OR play the "i'm now ignoring you" game...

incredibly childish and beyond passive/aggressive is this 'ignore' thing.

3. they claim to 'welcome constructive' criticisms which is EXACTLY what the wb' claims to WELCOME...

4. but use the same tactics against NON wb, NON ibt'bobble heads and former members...

"we decide what is constructive" is a sham and trap.

5. the sad result is they are KILLING friendships or alliances that DID exist and COULD be useful IF the club ever does change...

along with the RED NUMBERS the club's attraction has long been the HISTORY of travel, adventure and standing out in the rv crowd...

this group IS adding to that history,

but their legacy will be that of a bunch of crying chlld-adults who couldn't do things the HISTORICAL way...

and do NOT have a clue about how to be proactive for change...

1 new sky is falling issue a year isn't news or even interesting anymore.
____________

the club IS what it is

and a couple of small groups of younger members who THOUGHT they were important and that they didn't have to PLAY by the existing rules...

have found out they aren't so important and they are STUCK with the same old rules...

can a judge or litigation fix that? no of course not.

and a judge can't fix ALL of the hard feelings and LOST connections that this non event has caused.

it's SAD but true that this group is DIGGING a trench around themselves and filling it with bitter water for ALL, not just the bobble heads.
____________

the wb is STILL set up with rules and order from another time...

here's an example of that...

there is a caravan pending that is SORTA interesting, headed by the cleveland unit...

http://www.airstream-caravan.com/home

they'll travel from j/c ohio 2 milwaukee and take 6 weeks for the arduous trek...

moving about 90 miles every 3-5 days (somebody SHOOT me if i ever move that slowly in THOSE states...)

and here's how trouble makers will be handled...

""Dismissed from Caravan:

We are all looking to have a great adventure on this Caravan. Campgrounds and Factory Tours have rules and guidelines that everyone must adhere to. It will be grounds for dismissal from the Caravan if someone cannot or will not comply with Campground and Factory Tour Rules and Guidelines. In addition, unruley, drunken, or any kind of disruptive behaviors are grounds for dismissal from the Caravan and the Caravan member will have no refund and no recourse. We all hope to have a wonderful experience. The Wagonmasters will not allow the behavior of one or more individuals to ruin the experience for everyone else.
""

no refund and NO recourse for ANY kind of disruptive behavior....

the 'behavior of one or more individuals" will not ruin it for the REST..

again THIS is the basis and legacy of this club and while it does NOT jive with 21st century living...

it is what the wb' is...

and a FEW dissenters will NOT ruin it for the rest (resting home members and other stone-age members)
_________

the 30,000+ membership daze are often quoted at the high point and goal for the future...

but that is completely WRONG and primarily the misunderstood focus of those who have NEVER been IN the club,

and those who REALLY do NOT understand what the wb' is...

the 30,000+ member days were in fact, the LOW POINT for the real wb' club and exactly when ALMOST all focus was lost.

QUANITY like that = maggotsnbugs over decay...

and massive groups like THAT include a LOT of riff raff.

like THIS CLUB here at AIRF we'ze a 'hole lotta riff raff and we'ze LIKE IT LIKE THAT!
_________

there IS a place for a small civil old school wb' with SELECT members...

if they can sort out FUNDING.

there is a place for the folks who want the old'streams parade trailer club too (vac)

IF they can sort out how to survive with/without the classic wb' group.

AND THERE IS A PLACE for airstream riff raff.

it's here.

and we DON'T need an annual 'sky is falling non event' to keep our interest up...

pass the beer and bean dip and maybe a slightly used napkin...

cheers
2air'
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Old 05-14-2010, 06:48 PM   #489
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That may not ALWAYS be the case.

I stand corrected. But Madonna is so yesterday, almost like Lawrence Welk.

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Old 05-14-2010, 06:49 PM   #490
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Thank you very much, 2Air. That was an exceptionally clear and concise summary of the situation.

It seems apparent that the wbcci won't survive in its present form. It simply can't afford the "lifestyle" it leads.

But it also seems obvious that it won't improve under the management of the narcissistic bunch who purport themselves to be its saviours.

But that doesn't stop this thread from being a lot of fun to read, huh!?
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Old 05-14-2010, 08:04 PM   #491
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This thread and discussion is what Siskell and Ebert would refer to as... "riveting".
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:02 PM   #492
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I stand corrected. But Madonna is so yesterday, almost like Lawrence Welk.

Gene
You never see the two of them together.

Hmmm....
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Old 05-14-2010, 10:28 PM   #493
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Well done, 2 Air. Well done.
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:03 PM   #494
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Collier's May newsletter

In the spirit 2 air's most recent post Tom Collier IBT president addresses some of the points discussed in his most recent May newsletter that can be read here ... http://wbcci2.org/2010-may.pdf


He deftly deflects WBCCI morale issues to the UNITS without addressing the real problem at hand, fiscal mismanagement and closed communications
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:09 PM   #495
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And more light on the subject from the Denver Colorado Unit newsletter for May.

By Forrest M., Unit Trustee & Past Unit President
Will the WBCCI be Sued In Federal Court? At our April luncheon, several members asked me if it was true that the WBCCI is going to be sued, and what did I think about it. If you are just now learning about this then your likely reaction is, "What's THAT all about?"
In short, it is the culmination of a long brewing discontent with the way International officers run the club, and frustration with not being able to effect change from within the organization. It could happen. The group, composed of club members, has not only announced its intent to sue, but have collected pledges and money so that they can proceed. What does it mean to us? Most DENCO members only feel the pain when it is time to pay dues. International dues are the lion's share of what you pay, and these went up this year, and are scheduled to go up again next year. For many of us however, dues are not a deal breaker, but occasionally we feel the effects of International Bylaw & Policy. This happened at our Yuma Rally when a visiting International officer demanded that some old friends of our Unit, who were no longer members, had to leave. That created some hurt feelings that could have been avoided, if there had been some patience and confidence in DENCO leaders to rectify the situation. Was there a rule violation? Technically, yes, but a rigid disciplinary attitude doesn't take into consideration mitigating factors, such as the fact that the Yuma rally isn't entirely an Airstream or WBCCI event. It is a blended event and other brands of RV's park in the same field and share the same event and facilities as our group. The one guaranteed result of that hard line approach is that those old friends will never return to our club with an Airstream.
"If the trend continues, the WBCCI will
expire or fragment into small independent clubs
sometime in the next decade."
Rules are like tools, there are appropriate and inappropriate uses and a hammer isn't the best tool for measuring or finding balance. There is the old Japanese saying that, "the nail that sticks up will be hammered down." In other words, the Japanese are homogeneous and value conformity. That also seems to be the prevailing WBCCI philosophy.
Yet, the WBCCI is steadily declining in vitality and members. In 2001, the WBCCI treasury had about $3 million, but today it stands at about $1 million. Membership was around 9,000 but today it has shrunk to about 6,000. If the trend continues, the WBCCI will expire or fragment into small independent clubs sometime in the next decade.
In contrast, the DENCO Unit, the Four Corners Unit, the Washington DC Unit, and other similar units, have growth and vitality because they are pluralistic in their makeup and flexible in attitude.
Paradoxically, the WBCCI's response has been to file grievances against those who are critical and outspoken of the leadership or of their decisions and policies. Bob T., a 32-­year member, was suspended while he was Region 1 President. Leo G., past Metropolitan New York Unit President, has been expelled (and has since been served legal notices). Kimber M., Vintage Advantage VAC Newsletter Editor, and her husband, Tim K., VAC Webmaster & past VAC Membership Chairman, have been harrassed and threatened (with legal notices and anonymous phone calls) to such an extent that they have indicated they will not renew their membership. The last straw for Rob B., Past-­President of the Washington DC Unit, was being censored on the WBCCI member forum. Rob has resigned and formed his own club (and has since also been served threatening legal notices). All of this and more, just in the past year or so. Even our own Region President and Past DENCO President, Janie L., has suffered from similar rough and insensitive treatment.
What all of these members have in common is that they are all leaders, contributing members, good citizens, avid Airstreamers, and each was censored or berated for expressing their opinion. The WBCCI leadership would no doubt reply that it was not their opinion, but their manner of expressing their opinion that got them into trouble. In other words they've been labeled loud and brash. Well, that's what many people do when they are frustrated — they yell.
"The International organization
has started to eat its own…"
What else can you expect when the hammer is brought out of the toolbox to fix disappointment, exasperation and weariness? So, now bloodletting has begun. The International organization has started to eat its own and in response, "A growing number of the general membership intends to bring a Federal lawsuit against the WBCCI. The suit seeks a return to fiscal responsibility in light of current economic times, [and] return to the use of accepted Parliamentarian Practices in decision-making."
The additional fallout from all of this is that for every leader who is expelled, suspended or resigns other members go with them, and the resulting animosity discourages others from joining. It almost seems as though the WBCCI is intent on driving current and potential members away, and that may actually be the case since an International Past President proposed that our club should be more concerned with quality members than with quantity. In fact, the WBCCI Airstream Forum Administrator presents an argument supporting that viewpoint in a thread he created titled, "Quality over Quantity."
"…an International Past President proposed that
our club should be more concerned with
quality members than with quantity."
THE alarming question is what is a quality member and who makes that decision? Were the fore-­mentioned members NOT quality? How about you, or me? Are we quality, or not? For instance, the Forum Administrator labeled me a "straw man" — a person who acts as a front for somebody else's questionable activities — for writing that his argument is repulsive, discriminatory and elitist.
Regardless of which side might win, the club's leadership or the plaintiff's, it will amount to a pyrrhic victory .. a contest won at such a great cost that it is tantamount to defeat.
This is why your vote at the May Maintenance Rally is so important. At that rally, you will be asked to vote for a slate of candidates selected by the International Nominating Committee. Among those, is a member of our Unit, Bob M. for Treasurer, who is an actual Certified Public Accountant — a qualification that position requires, and Bob is the right man, in the right place, at the right time.
However, also in the slate is a nominee for Nominating Committee Richard H. Some of you may remember him from the IBT meeting at the 2008 International Rally. This is the officer who publicly chastised then VAC 1st VP, and DENCO Unit Past President, Shari D., for the content of the VAC annual report .. something she had no control over. His conduct was so outrageous that later he was directed to apologize.
Now, three years later, the WBCCI has forgotten or forgiven Richard's actions, and has decided he should be on the committee that selects our Club leadership. It's been suggested that members should vote "no," but the only way to vote against a nomination is to nominate someone else and vote for them.
"…the only way to vote against a nomination is
to nominate someone else and vote for them."
That person is Ed E., Past WI Unit President and Past VAC President. He has agreed to run for that position from the floor of the Delegates Meeting. However, he needs your vote so that we can instruct our Delegate to make and/or support Ed's nomination.
Also, up for your consideration will be a motion to amend the WBCCI Constitution. The full text is on page 5 of our February newsletter. A "yes" vote on this motion will help it go forward to other Units to consider and vote on. If it is ratified, it will be a tool that every Unit can use to put an end to the heavy-handed abuses that are killing our Club.
You may download and view the original article (pages 7&8) from the WBCCI Denver Colorado Unit May 2010 Newsletter here: http://j.mp/9Jo5MQ
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:45 PM   #496
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There has been a lot of grand standing going on. A few caustic remarks and the baby got thrown out with the bath water. Getting back on topic and not talking about people talking about topic...

I don't know if you listened to the mid-winter simulcasts but here was a response I had made in the request for open letters to the WBCCI. Now a little dated, but will show the kind of concern that I had with the results of the IBT discussion of dues increases. After being glued to the computer to take in the multiday simulcast I was very disappointed in the results and the tone of the the leadership. A really big issue was when the many various motions on the recent flurry of grievances by different authors were combined into one order of new business and taken and addressed secreted away in close door session with no discussion session or way of knowing what had just transpired, which is a serious deviation from procedure.

An Open Letter to the Membership of the WBCCI
Sounds reasonable to pay as we go. How ever it is that rallies and activities get planned on the local unit level that should be the template for larger rallies and meetings. Keeping it simple and taking the approach to cover the basics and only add to the mix if there is a surplus is the only way to provide for the changing numbers without negatively impacting the club as it gets smaller.

Now we see the club as continuing to get smaller. The IBT continues to see the club growing. I don't think it's negative to be practical and realistic. I rather think it is more harmful to let the club whither and flail rather than to cut drastically and move ahead to the next step of fiscal health and the vitality that responsible change will bring to club morale. And if it takes an emergency meeting to get things straight then so be it. Most large corporations have been shook up. If we are smart we will emerge better and stronger.

Our club can be the best club. It isn't the number of your members that count (well unless you are lifetime leadership for a club the size of 20,000 members) but how much the members enjoy their club that counts. Word of mouth is the best advertising and it doesn't cost a penny. Enthusiasm and variety are key.

Basically during the IBT meetings we heard that the members' "perceived" member value was low to non-existent and then we were told that we are wrong in our own perceptions. There is something very fundamentally wrong with that attitude of leadership. I totally disagree with PIP Franklin, when he asked leadership to stand up and show some gall, I think the IBT is showing plenty of gall. 500 dollars off of Sky Med or a 1000 dollars of a caravan aren't the kinds of benefits that are going to retain or recruit members into the WBCCI, either. Trying to pass on the printing and paper costs of the IBT motions to the entire membership to save Mid-Winter attendants 20 dollars off their rally fee is skewed, while at the same time asking the members to pay 20 dollars more for dues and claiming that's only 4 1/2 chicken nuggets per deim food equation and people ought not to be cheap and whining.

The International Club does not wish to change. But the challenge goes out back to them to do so. It is just not feasible or even possible for membership to support the IBT spending. They can clock time and let their terms of office run out and manage to pass the hard issues onto the next who also in turn tries not to be the one to be held accountable and be the unpopular one to bring down the changes that will adversely affect their friends, but it has to be done, plain and simple.

From someone on the bottom of a bottoms up club I think the leadership must address the serious issues that are causing division and dissatisfaction among the members and just let the membership decide how the club should proceed. It really isn't their job to make those decisions on their own. And it really isn't their money to spend. During times of affluence no one grumbles but when its time to cinch in the belt then all of a sudden problems occur. Balking, delaying, denying are not the responses that will save us.

You can't put off onto the membership to make up the difference and make it right. Only through the wisdom and dedication to the majority of members can the IBT make the situation right. Only through cutting spending can the club be put right. Advertising and membership drives and mentoring all have their place but it is a failure to not accept the reality that this club will continue to get smaller regardless of the best of scenerios. What we can do is to work to keep the loyal member base and make it a great club experience for the unit members, which the leadership is still a part. Their position of service to all the individual members of this club should not be confused nor convoluted with excessive planning for all the privilege and awards of recognition of leadership. That is not the membership's perceived notion of success nor the embodiment of the spirit of volunteerism.
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Old 05-15-2010, 12:04 AM   #497
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allow me 1 more post in this thread this week.

IF the folks trying to 'save leo' has just stated up front the obvious goal it would have been so much better.

for example they COULD have written...

"he's been booted unfairly we're fighting to keep him in the club/unit and we may use the legal system for this."

"it's possible some GENERAL benefits will come from this,

like a CHANGE in how grievances are handled or some other awareness at the leadership level"


"but our REAL intent is too KEEP him in the unit where he's part of our family"

this MIGHT have been a better story and certainly a more HONEST version.

but new yorkers have their own way of staging a street brawl (cue sharks/jets music from west side story)
____________

thanks its' for linking TC may newsletter...

the changes mentioned for the int. rally are TOKEN in terms of $$

but MAJOR in symbolic ways and signal they (he or someone) GET IT on some level.

at least this year.

earlier there was bitch'n about him callng the wyoming gig HIS international....

that wasn't a mistake and needs to be understood, it is HIS international.

these guys slither up the command line and when they REACH the top, that year is THEIR time to shine.

it's a lot like the teen queen gig (that's now history) only for old men and their ladies.

along with the voting/legislative thing it IS what the international has LONG been about...

a spot light, a meal, a dance and an evening gown competition for geezers.

it reads like he is planning to ALTER THAT POMP for 'his international' and that's BIG BIG imo.
______________

of course the real issue is folks WANT an annual national PARTY rally, not a political event.

which means the ENTIRE international menu has got to go OR another FUN THING needs to happen.

there are PLENTY of examples of fun things from the unit level, FORUMS gigs, palOOZA type event and so on.
______________

in many ways the INT body mimics the traditonal UNIT.

and MOST units still operate this way...

1-some1 becomes a Nth vp at their unit level and each year they DON'T piss anyone off, they move UP the vp chain.

2-eventually it's THEIR YEAR to be unit or region pres.

3-that's generally NOT because they did anything heroic beforehand

4-but rather because they did NOTHING 2far outta line while "holding" a lower office.

5-when their year as unit/region PRES happens there are ceremonies and dinners and false accolades.

so the int bobbble heads are simply another LEVEL of this traditional MOOSE club approach.

which means if REAL change is too happen at the TOP...

UNITS must alter how they do these things.

some CLEARLY have but others simply disguise the traditional dance with new music and pirate patches.
____________

the single most useful way to ALTER the club culture is to change the money train.

figure out HOW to alter the written bylaws such that most (ALL) member dues REMAIN at the unit level...

and ever single OTHER issue falls into place.

figuring out how to RUN, truly qualified office candidates from the floor or in some other NON traditional manners is a good thing too.

because it's USEFUL to have people ON the job who actually understand and are capable of DOING the job.

fred's memo is civil and well written.

so it appears folks on differing sides are SORTA listening to each other and posturing in a useful way.

fix HOW the money flows.

THREATENING to have a large chunk of money poured into the legal abyss is ok, maybe...

but actually POURING THE MONEY into that bottomless cup is silly.

cheers
2air'
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Old 05-15-2010, 01:05 AM   #498
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...Madonna is so yesterday, almost like Lawrence Welk.

Gene
Sorry Gene, Lady Gaga was kinda busy.
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Old 05-15-2010, 10:04 AM   #499
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Al Jezzera

Leo,

You are to the WBCCI IBT as Aljazeera is to the US... I'm loving this information operations (IO) stuff.. it's a hoot!

Rob
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Old 05-15-2010, 10:36 AM   #500
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This thread is about the proposed litigation. At this point, there's been more documentation about the IBT's problems than about the Kennedy assassination. What I'm still waiting for (and will probably never get) is for someone to draw a line between the much-talked-about lawsuit and changes in the WBCCI that address the organization's real problems.

Personally, I don't give the lawsuit good odds, but I'm willing to discuss a hypothetical victory just to get to the point where the WBCCI suddenly becomes a different organization. I'll also assert--once again--that if things are so terrible with the IBT, the unhappy campers should be able to get at least 50 percent of the WBCCI to leave or simply withhold dues for a year.

As long as the IBT believes a majority of members are satisfied with the WBCCI, they will feel as if they hold the moral high ground. Even if they lose in court, they'll quickly point to the membership and say, "Look, our members are happy so the court must be wrong." I don't think a legal victory changes anyone's mind. Worse, if the unhappy campers lose in court, the IBT's grip on the organization will be ironclad. They will vindicated, and vindictive.
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