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Old 05-07-2010, 11:36 AM   #401
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Maggie,

I'm pretty sure Bob isn't an attorney, or at the very least, a litigator. I can't imagine any competent attorney discussing a potential or pending case on an Internet forum. All of the litigators I know would be--let's just say "unenthused"--about having a client posting about the case on a public forum.

As for "strategy," with the rules of discovery in a civil trial, there are very few "Perry Mason" moments. Both the defendants and plaintiffs have an opportunity to see the evidence the other side intends to use in the case. Both sides have an opportunity to depose witnesses. The depositions are transcribed and studied carefully. First things first, though, someone has to file the complaint. Once filed, it is a matter of public record so I'm sure someone will post it. The complaint is likely to lay out the bones of the case, but skimp on the details. The details will be filled in by the pre-trial process. By the time the trial opens--presuming competent counsel and that the matter survives motions--both sides will have a pretty good idea what the strategies are.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but until the legal matter is resolved I'm guessing "Judge Bob" is going to pronounce, in James Earl Jones-esque tones, that the court is going to cut through the IBT like a hot knife through vulkem. In reality, no one really knows what a court is going to do in any given case. This is why most competent (and honest) lawyers advocate for a settlement. A reasonable and certain compromise is almost always better than a roll of judicial dice.

As for the IBT, I think they are full blown Alfred E. Neuman, What, Me Worry? At first blush, this is an internal squabble in a social club. The IBT presumably has D&O insurance and a general liability carrier. They also have a good chunk of change in the bank. The attorneys for the WBCCI can go the "land war in Asia" route, forcing the plaintiffs to spend tens of thousands of dollars. If the trial doesn't go the way they want, they appeal. Getting a real final decision could be years away.

Let's be real. If losing money and members over the past decade hasn't phased the IBT, why would a lawsuit bother them? I'm sure their lawyers will be almost as confident as Bob.
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Old 05-07-2010, 12:15 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by hampstead38 View Post
Maggie,

I'm pretty sure Bob isn't an attorney, or at the very least, a litigator. I can't imagine any competent attorney discussing a potential or pending case on an Internet forum. All of the litigators I know would be--let's just say "unenthused"--about having a client posting about the case on a public forum.

As for "strategy," with the rules of discovery in a civil trial, there are very few "Perry Mason" moments. Both the defendants and plaintiffs have an opportunity to see the evidence the other side intends to use in the case. Both sides have an opportunity to depose witnesses. The depositions are transcribed and studied carefully. First things first, though, someone has to file the complaint. Once filed, it is a matter of public record so I'm sure someone will post it. The complaint is likely to lay out the bones of the case, but skimp on the details. The details will be filled in by the pre-trial process. By the time the trial opens--presuming competent counsel and that the matter survives motions--both sides will have a pretty good idea what the strategies are.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but until the legal matter is resolved I'm guessing "Judge Bob" is going to pronounce, in James Earl Jones-esque tones, that the court is going to cut through the IBT like a hot knife through vulkem. In reality, no one really knows what a court is going to do in any given case. This is why most competent (and honest) lawyers advocate for a settlement. A reasonable and certain compromise is almost always better than a roll of judicial dice.

As for the IBT, I think they are full blown Alfred E. Neuman, What, Me Worry? At first blush, this is an internal squabble in a social club. The IBT presumably has D&O insurance and a general liability carrier. They also have a good chunk of change in the bank. The attorneys for the WBCCI can go the "land war in Asia" route, forcing the plaintiffs to spend tens of thousands of dollars. If the trial doesn't go the way they want, they appeal. Getting a real final decision could be years away.

Let's be real. If losing money and members over the past decade hasn't phased the IBT, why would a lawsuit bother them? I'm sure their lawyers will be almost as confident as Bob.
It just doesn't get much more sound than this well thought out, articulate post from someone who actually knows what they're talking about IMHO. Excellent points about the reality that is being faced.

...and the new theme music for this.....

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Old 05-07-2010, 12:39 PM   #403
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I think's Bob's profession was stated much earlier in this thread or maybe another, not a lawyer, but knowledgeable as he works with them in federal cases. Maybe my memory is faulty.

The Complaint may be sparse on details or not, depending on whether the attorney wants to disclose things early for some perceived advantage, whether the law in a specific area requires more detail to get past a motion to dismiss, and maybe whether the attorney is blowing smoke. Just what you put in a complaint is changing due to some recent federal procedural law decisions and we will be seeing more detail in complaints.

Whether the aggrieved should be posting so much info on a website is an interesting question. It can be part of campaign to influence some WBCCI members and unit, a well thought out strategy backed by their lawyers, or a need to express themselves. Nonetheless, lawyers do get nervous that clients will disclose damaging material even though the client believes he is acting from the best of intentions. In my experience it can be very difficult with some clients to keep them quiet and at some point they will do or say something to destroy their case; when they did that I figured they had a psychological need to lose and no one could save them from themselves. I am not saying that is happening here, but I am illustrating why lawyers are afraid what a client will say. There's a lot of feints, misdirections, verbal flatulence and ego in a litigation strategy. Part of lawyering is understanding that and working it. It's very political and can be fun.

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Old 05-07-2010, 12:43 PM   #404
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Hamp you the man, if only you were right
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Old 05-07-2010, 01:28 PM   #405
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Cool Groovy!

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Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie View Post
...and the new theme music for this.....
Concerts on the big lawn... now we're talking.

I've been lucky enough to attend many, many great concerts here, including Simon & Garfunkel (30 freakin' years ago!?!) This one was right up there without a doubt. Fantastic vibe. 9/11 still very fresh in everyone's consciousness. This vid from the same concert, however, might be more appropriate to the mess we have here though.



Thanks Twink!
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Old 05-07-2010, 02:13 PM   #406
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Attorney or not an attorney is not the issue at all

I'm pretty sure Bob isn't an attorney, or at the very least, a litigator. I can't imagine any competent attorney discussing a potential or pending case on an Internet forum. All of the litigators I know would be--let's just say "unenthused"--about having a client posting about the case on a public forum.

You guys are pretty shallow in your "well thought out articulate" compliments to one another.
Bob is having a ball. He is not in this by himself at all.
Bob is not the client what are you guys talking about?
If you think that the leadership is caviler and not concerned at all about this issue I believe you are very very wrong.
Fact: Leadership of WBCCI recently had an informal meeting to discuss the going's on and they are very concerned.

Fact: Some Past International Presidents of WBCCI are not going to attend the upcoming "International" some may call that BOYCOTTING. Can you guess why?

Remember folks, Bob is helping you and others along with understanding the process. Many don't understand the legal process. He has done a great job in my opinion in helping us along with understanding what is coming up.

Your continued attacks upon him are making you sound more and more like cry babies that want so bad to be heard! What is with you guys. Do you just like to feed your egos and feed each other or are you concerned about trying to save WBCCI?
Since others have not said it yet. Bob - thank you for your time and effort and I appreciate your keeping us informed with the upcoming litigation.
Thanks again Bob.
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Old 05-07-2010, 02:35 PM   #407
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I agree. Thanks Bob for holding our hand thru the process. As of today, there are only 715 signed up for Gillette International.
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Old 05-07-2010, 02:44 PM   #408
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Gene,

With (some) lawyers, there is gameship in the decision to staple or use a paper clip. If there is a strategy buried somewhere in the Airforums posting about this lawsuit, I have yet to see it. In fact, if I were opposing counsel, I would be encouraged. Even in the rarified air of the federal court, judges are interested equity as well as the law. Despite the decline in membership, the WBCCI is still a relatively large social club where the majority of members are content. The financial fortunes of the club are in decline, but that's hardly unusual. Is there misfeasance? Malfeasance? I imagine the great challenge in this is for the plaintiffs to provide a solid evidentiary basis for the court to impose a legal remedy... while avoiding the appearance of being a small barrel of sour apples.

We have discussed this before, Gene, the issues of culture, change, the dynamics of social networks, etc. While I have a modest and passing intelletual interest in the rise and fall of the WBCCI, I really don't have a dog in the fight. Frankly, if the folks pushing for the lawsuit achieve everything and a side of fries, I still don't think I'll have any interest in the red numbers and blue berets. I don't think new rules and "better" bosses will make it factory in which I would like work. In perfect candor, I don't see that much difference between the WBCCI apostates and the true believers.

Joe: Whether or not the WBCCI survives really doesn't mean much to me. I've participated in this thread to share my perspective. If you, Bob or the Queen of England want to sue the WBCCI, fine. It's your money; it's your party. Here's the bottom line. The way I see is that you all are going to make the WBCCI into a fun, friendly, camping club even if you have to sue them into the stone age to do it.

Good luck with that.
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Old 05-07-2010, 03:43 PM   #409
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Gene,



Joe: Whether or not the WBCCI survives really doesn't mean much to me. I've participated in this thread to share my perspective. If you, Bob or the Queen of England want to sue the WBCCI, fine. It's your money; it's your party. Here's the bottom line. The way I see is that you all are going to make the WBCCI into a fun, friendly, camping club even if you have to sue them into the stone age to do it.

Good luck with that.
I understand your position and there are many out there that would agree because they too do not have a "dog in the race" but I do as many of us are members.
My wife is the is the 1st VP of Metro NY, our son is the sec'y, my buddy is the 2nd VP, my buddy is the current President, my sister is in our unit. And, I can go on.
I personally have brought at least a dozen or so members into this club.
I believe in the process. I tried to help Leo through the process too.
Some of the leadership are too arrogant to accept responsibility for their failed policies and are not tolerant of any change at all.
I believe this will change and it is the commitment of those like Bob and Leo and others that just may save this club. And, I might add it is worth saving. It is fun to camp and be with fellow Airstreamers. We have been in every state (not Hawaii) and BC and Yukon and Alaska with our Airstream.
It seems to me that some of the people that post here are just there to waste the time and energy and to degrade the efforts of those that are working to save WBCCI. If those of you that don't really care or don't "have a dog in the race" why are you posting?
I don't get it. You of course have the right to post but why waste your time???
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Old 05-08-2010, 02:01 PM   #410
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find this discussion about the IBT officers very interesting. At the Hobo Rally this past February, I had a conversation with John Boutwell, the candidate for I3VP, about why he, as a sitting Region President, was chosen and not someone who was not a sitting president. He told me that none of the prior region officers was willing to step up. I am not sure what to read into this.

John was incorrect. But then with all the "goings on" perhaps my letter, like others I have sent, did not reach the "correct Committee" or perhaps it was ignored. Who knows now days. Guess that leaves "the floor" Bot T - Past Region 1 President
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:58 AM   #411
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Exclamation Ethics & grievance committee violations of their own

Ethics & grievance committee violated their own bylaws in discussing Leo G's pending grievance.

How do we know that?

In an April 18'th newsletter from the Cleveland unit there is a statement.

"Bill Johnjulio, who now leads the National/Special Events Committee, described a recent decision by the Ethics and Grievance Committee to expel a member who is a former New York Unit president. The individual has raised many complaints about the Clubs style and bureaucracy but did so without adhering to principles of courtesy and mutual respect. The individual has started a website to push is agenda of change outside the structure of the WBCCI."

The only way a member outside of the committee would make a statement like that is if a member of the committee breached the confidentially rules of the bylaws.

So the folks that are supposed uphold & theoretically govern the ethics of members aren't very ethical themselves in discussing the findings.

This kinda makes Leo's grievance hearing a miss trial.


.
Attached Files
File Type: doc WBCCI Cleveland Unit.doc (25.0 KB, 87 views)
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Old 05-11-2010, 06:29 AM   #412
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Wow they removed it already!

See the attachment I saved a screen shot for our legal team.
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:42 AM   #413
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Wow they removed it already!

See the attachment I saved a screen shot for our legal team.
Bob

That is not fair. Someone should tell the Feckless Leadership that everything they ever do on the net is there for ever. Simply removing it at the source end will not remove it from history. It like turning off the bubble machine there are still bubbles floating around.
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Old 05-11-2010, 08:46 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Ethics & grievance committee violated their own bylaws in discussing Leo G's pending grievance.

How do we know that?

In an April 18'th newsletter from the Cleveland unit there is a statement.

"Bill Johnjulio, who now leads the National/Special Events Committee, described a recent decision by the Ethics and Grievance Committee to expel a member who is a former New York Unit president. The individual has raised many complaints about the Club’s style and bureaucracy but did so without adhering to principles of courtesy and mutual respect. The individual has started a website to push is agenda of change outside the structure of the WBCCI."

The only way a member outside of the committee would make a statement like that is if a member of the committee breached the confidentially rules of the bylaws.

So the folks that are supposed uphold & theoretically govern the ethics of members aren't very ethical themselves in discussing the findings.

This kinda makes Leo's grievance hearing a miss trial.


.
All of this proves nothing. Everything stated in that Cleveland newsletter could be learned by reading posts here and at SaveWally. Stop trying to make something out of nothing and just give up on the lawsuit already. You are just going to wreck the club. Quite frankly, I and many others are getting sick of the rumor, innuendo, and speculation you are trying to pass off as fact.
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Old 05-11-2010, 08:51 PM   #415
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Joe

Would you care to be a bit more specific? Which rumor, inuendo, and speculation do you take exception to?

If you would state them they can be dealt with one by one.
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Old 05-11-2010, 08:54 PM   #416
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Region 4?

Inneuendo? How do you feel about facts? There have been NO indirect intimations about a person or thing, esp. of a disparaging or a derogatory nature. We are directly charging the WBCCI leadership with the consequences of their actions and there is not a rumor among the list. With all the time you have been on the Save Wally team, you of all people, should know that directly Joe. There is no political posturing going on at this end.
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:03 PM   #417
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Region 4?

Inneuendo? How do you feel about facts? There have been NO indirect intimations about a person or thing, esp. of a disparaging or a derogatory nature. We are directly charging the WBCCI leadership with the consequences of their actions and there is not a rumor among the list. With all the time you have been on the Save Wally team, you of all people, should know that directly Joe. There is no political posturing going on at this end.
Since the start of the lawsuit talk I no longer participate at SaveWally - I will have nothing to do with that action.
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:13 PM   #418
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Joe

Would you care to be a bit more specific? Which rumor, inuendo, and speculation do you take exception to?

If you would state them they can be dealt with one by one.
This will be my last post on this subject because I try to stay out of all the political crap these days. Therefore, I will only address this one case where LI Pets suggests that since someone spoke about facts that have been posted repeatedly on SaveWally and here that their MUST have been a breach of confidentiality on the E&G team. That is a big leap, but it is the type of leap I have seen posted repeatedly in all of the posturing about a lawsuit.

I have no desire to engage in debate over the merits or lack therefore of all the claims I have seen posted in relation to the potential lawsuit. Debating that crap ain't fun and I know I can't sway any of your opinions, so why try.

But sometimes the mudslinging just gets to a guy. I should have just stayed out of it and let you guys ruin the club, but tonight I couldn't. I will try to keep my mouth shut in the future. Sorry for the interruption. Carry on without me.

Over and out, don't bother replying, because I will not post to this thread again.
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:37 PM   #419
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Boy are you very confused, without intervention the club is history.

If they weren't concerned about those published comments why did they edit (delete) their own newsletter that quick.
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:41 PM   #420
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The be nice mantra at all costs is disturbing. I can't see that being a viable course of action or rather inaction. Once the siren gravitational pull of leadership begins its ebb, questioning then becomes heresy and discussion is something to disperse with cease and desist type statements and disclaimers. However, the proof is evidenced by the works. One needs to argue no more than that to be clear.

Yup there are no politics involved with expelling the candidates that have spoken out and run from the floor. And printing the particulars of grievance charges isn't breaching the confidentiality of it. And members who try to garner support from other members and share information openly are mudslingers. And most of all the victims are to blame for ruining a good thing with their complaining, am I right? And we should all just give up already. Not. But nice try Joe. Backpeddaling from Save Wally and your comments ought to help pave a little of your way any how...
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