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Old 03-02-2010, 03:05 PM   #21
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Silvertwinkie

In your first post you commented this was a GREAT IDEA and now you comment that Bob T got a RAW deal. Give that you recognize there are problems are you just going to sit on the side lines and hurl invectives at this or are you going to get on board?

This is going forward and yes it will cost a buck or two. But the greater question is do we want to sit on the side lines and watch the money be spent for the benefit of the Leaders or do we want to spend it now and correct the things we all acknowledge to be wrong.

As for the camp fire. It will be in the middle of the river and I will build the float to support it.
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Old 03-02-2010, 03:16 PM   #22
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wow this is really getting out of hand, its only a camping club.
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Old 03-02-2010, 03:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie View Post
Agreed, however, I don't think one can compare Bob T to Leo G. Universe of difference here.
The problem saying that is that the ones that wanted Bob out would have state the same thing as you regarding Leo... and that's all about it again... you keep feeding me here. SUBJECTIVE.

You may think Bob T is quality when you think Leo is not. You like one when you don't the other one.
Based on personal perception. That should never be taken into consideration.

Laws, rules, in our respective country are made to prevent such arbitrary
statement or should I say to prevent decision based on arbitrary stament. Not to serve them.
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Old 03-02-2010, 04:07 PM   #24
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wow this is really getting out of hand, its only a camping club.
No it is NOT a camping club it is a CARAVAN club. There is a difference. I only commented on that so I can watch where this thread will go...
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Old 03-02-2010, 04:11 PM   #25
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ditto to you , my mistake, wally byam caravan club international, as a new member i stand corrected.
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Old 03-02-2010, 04:29 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by HowieE View Post
Silvertwinkie

In your first post you commented this was a GREAT IDEA and now you comment that Bob T got a RAW deal. Give that you recognize there are problems are you just going to sit on the side lines and hurl invectives at this or are you going to get on board?

This is going forward and yes it will cost a buck or two. But the greater question is do we want to sit on the side lines and watch the money be spent for the benefit of the Leaders or do we want to spend it now and correct the things we all acknowledge to be wrong.

As for the camp fire. It will be in the middle of the river and I will build the float to support it.
I was being facetious about the proposed suit. I do think Bob got a raw deal. But I also know I prob didn't then (in Bob's case) or now (in Leo's case) have access to all the info why the things that happened did occur. IIRC Bob's termination was reversed, and the current system did it without being hauled into court about it.

Bottom line, your darn right I'm gonna sit on the sidelines (for the most part), but I'm also going to point out areas where I think folks have missed the mark ( I can be a Monday morning QB like the best of 'em).

Look, I know WBCCI has some issues, show me a .org that doesn't. Are WBCCI's worse than most? To some, yes, to others, no. Is it worth going to the mattresses over? Again, to some yes, others no. Just cause I say no, doesn't mean you all don't have a right to do what's in your best interest.

I guess I can be kind of jaded with this because everytime I turn my back, there are 10 folks chanting the death chant every time they get near a keyboard. It's like talking politics or religion or Ford vs. Chevy, you have two camps deeply committed to the cause. It just gets old, but I will say this, if you build a float that can support our Airstreams, I'll camp out there with you....might not agree on every subject we talk about, but would happily camp with you...again, it's a club....we have options, doesn't mean we can't be civil in disagreement or find some areas of commonality.
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Old 03-02-2010, 08:03 PM   #27
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If you are going to sit on the sideline then you shouldn't get involved.
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Old 03-02-2010, 08:17 PM   #28
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I think what we would to have besides your support, is events or circumstances that you feel are or have being done incorrectly by the board or others members that should be brought to our attention.
Either in this thread or PM us.

This input would help our legal team.

For example one member PM'd me with this comment, (yes I have his permission to post it)

Board membersaccepting benefits unavailable to the general membership from outside corporations and/or companies and failing to report resulting conflict of interests to the membership (e.g. deep discounts on the purchase of Airstream RV products and/or services, free use of Airstream products for family members, etc.)"

IRS isn't reading this thread are they?
Moreover, is the club risking their non profit status?


.
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:11 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
I think what we would to have besides your support, is events or circumstances that you feel are or have being done incorrectly by the board or others members that should be brought to our attention.
Either in this thread or PM us.

This input would help our legal team.

For example one member PM'd me with this comment, (yes I have his permission to post it)

Board membersaccepting benefits unavailable to the general membership from outside corporations and/or companies and failing to report resulting conflict of interests to the membership (e.g. deep discounts on the purchase of Airstream RV products and/or services, free use of Airstream products for family members, etc.)"

IRS isn't reading this thread are they?
Moreover, is the club risking their non profit status?


.
Those things are difficult to prove, unless you have the proverbial smoking gun.

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Old 03-02-2010, 09:14 PM   #30
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I can understand Leo filing a writ because the IBT did not follow it's published rules and procedures.

I can't understand the logic of suing the WBCCI.

However in the end IMHO no one will win but the lawyers and all parties will be worse off financially and some emotionally.

Since you will be working from the short stack of cash. A few bucks up front to determine if you have a valid case or not could save you much grief and money later.
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:18 PM   #31
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Since you will be working from the short stack of cash. A few bucks up front to determine if you have a valid case or not could save you much grief and money later.
Please give us credit not to launch the ship without checking to see if the tide was in.
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:19 PM   #32
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I don't think it's the winning that is the impetus of most who are interested in persuing this action. There would be no shame in losing. The real shame is in looking the other way and taking no note of what are serious infractions that damage all members' rights and the perceived value and heritage of the WBCCI. Legal recourse is a respectable and responsible method to address issues that can not be arbitrated through normal channels of communication.
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:30 PM   #33
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Those things are difficult to prove, unless you have the proverbial smoking gun.
You prove it by testimony under oath and other evidence.
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:35 PM   #34
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I can't understand the logic of suing the WBCCI.
I can't understand the logic of how the board keeps loosing over 100K a year for several years.

How do you suggest to address that issue?
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:38 PM   #35
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Please give us credit not to launch the ship without checking to see if the tide was in.
No offense meant but during the 22 years I spent in courtrooms two phrases were heard more than once every day.

1, "I didn't do it."

2, "It's not the money. It's the priciple."

It usually didn't end well for either group.
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:45 PM   #36
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I can't understand the logic of how the board keeps loosing over 100K a year for several years.

How do you suggest to address that issue?
I too am stunned by the mismanagement of the club. I subscribe to the subvert from within theory. Work our way up the ladder changing things as we go. This current batch won't last forever.

I know that some don't want to wait that long but to each their own.
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:48 PM   #37
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They only nominate like minded people to replace them, they are several years out with that plan.

Leo tried for 4 years to climb that ladder, he wasn't one of the good 'ol boys

see what that does.
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Old 03-02-2010, 10:12 PM   #38
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They only nominate like minded people to replace them, they are several years out with that plan.

Leo tried for 4 years to climb that ladder, he wasn't one of the good 'ol boys

see what that does.
Of course. Human nature is what it is. You are drawn to your own kind. There are fortunately others already in the "pipeline" who from the outside fit their mold.

Sadly the main problem is that many of the folks who have the logical ideas that would turn this club from a slowly sinking ship into an America's cup contender don't run for Unit and then Region offices and beyond.

They have excuses of course. "I don't have the time." "I work for a living and I just want to go camping." etc. excuses and apathy will kill this club and I don't think a lawsuit will revive it.

So I'll continue to subvert from within and support others who are doing the same. My bet says with a little effort we can be running this club in six or seven years. I know too long for many but worth the effort for me to save the club.
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Old 03-03-2010, 05:36 AM   #39
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This is not about Leo's reinstatment

Over nite I had 3 Pm's asking why we don't sue to just get Leo back in why are we going after the WBCCI.

If 3 people asked many more may be thinking the same, so I'll address that issue.

The expulsion is the cumulation of Leos efforts to affect change in the WBCCI. Mere reinstatement does nothing but put him back in the exact same position he was in just 60 days ago.

Nuisance grievances will start right up again because hes not letting failing leadership off the hook for not taking care of our business.


Getting reinstated by proving that they were clueless in following their own procedures doesn't fix anything with regards to our club's operations. How long will it take them to expel him again for doing exactly what hes committed to doing? Do we go back to court in a few months?

The only way to fix this, is to challenge leadership in each and every area that has brought us to this point such as.
Discrimination against members (a closed election system). Discriminating against members voting rights.
Intentionally withholding important documents and issues from the membership (motions and budget details coming before the IBT meetings).
Fighting for member's rights to affect and control each of these issues.
The deficit spending created by financing leadership's travel expenses doing the annual Great North American Tour.

These folks serve us, we do not serve them.

We're shopping for a list of ideas from the membership to consider. We need to make sure we've got it all covered. Some items our attorneys will tell us the courts can address others they won't be able to.

Nobody is attacking the WBCCI on any level. It's management that we're after, their make-it-up-as-you-go-along 'established customs.'

Where the IP, and/or the EC7 simply makes up what suits them best in the moment.
How dare they lose $146,000.00 of membership funds in a single year? That is absolutely worth standing up against!

We seek to give the membership open, free, and fair elections next year? Voting rights? Bring fiscal responsibility back to leadership?

The point isn't so much to be reinstated, that's not worth a dime of the membership's money. The point is to set management straight as to what their responsibilities are what their actions can and cannot be.

They're out of control; we need to get this club modernized and growing again.
Nobody wants to see the club have to spend $25-$50K defending itself in the courts, but what's the alternative, watching them flush another $150K of membership funds, annually?
How long will the WBCCI last under those conditions?

We can't go forward without pledges for $7500. Leos pledged all of his time, plus $500. Others have pledged over $3,000



We're half way there.




Whether we go forward with this or not, is up to current and past members.









.


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Old 03-03-2010, 07:49 AM   #40
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I just have to say something about this, although have been waiting for Crawford Gene to weigh in with better information.

Lawsuits have to have at their foundation a cause of action that can be filed in State or Federal court, in a complaint prepared by attorneys willing to take the case. This would not be a criminal case, but civil, I believe. Criminal cases are filed by State's Attorneys, Attorneys General, etc., and require identification of criminal laws that have been willfully broken, I believe.

Anger and upset by numerous members, over perceived or actual mismanagement and misguided direction of a private club, may not rise to the level of a case that can be written into a complaint and taken into court. These things are carefully defined by state and federal government, and then more narrowly defined through case law at all levels.

Lawsuits are very, very expensive for plaintiffs as well as defendants, with attorney fees, filing costs, etc., having to be met along the way regardless of eventual outcome. Thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars, before you even get near a courtroom.

We have our issues with the WBCCI, which we have stated elsewhere and will not state again, and we are sympathetic to individuals who have perhaps been wrongfully placed on the piercing end of the sword. I would also like to state that we all have the right to our opinions and perspectives about issues publicly posted here, members of the WBCCI or not.

I do think it is premature and highly inflammatory to be putting something like a lawsuit against the WBCCI out there on these Forums, and soliciting anywhere pledges for contributions to fund it. People can get very caught up in the emotionality of it all, and it can be even more polarizing than what we are already seeing here.

Gene, are you out there?

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