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Old 05-05-2010, 11:44 AM   #341
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It's <6,000 members not 7,000, perhaps if you were a member you would know.

You said "Even if a few hundred people are up in arms, there are several thousand who aren't."

Let's see what the primary topic of conversation is at the International rally and how many are up in arms there after when the proponents of this fight explain it to folks who may not fully understand it.

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Old 05-05-2010, 11:47 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by wkerfoot View Post
I find this discussion about the IBT officers very interesting. At the Hobo Rally this past February, I had a conversation with John Boutwell, the candidate for I3VP, about why he, as a sitting Region President, was chosen and not someone who was not a sitting president. He told me that none of the prior region officers was willing to step up. I am not sure what to read into this.

Bill
Bill it has to do with free time.

Also you if you accept you have to be willing to spend your free time traveling all expenses paid.

.
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:55 AM   #343
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Bill it has to do with free time.

Also you if you accept you have to be willing to spend your free time traveling all expenses paid.

.
Bob,

I am not sure that what your say is the only reason. Several past region presidents are serving on other committees which do require free time.

Bill
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:24 PM   #344
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Once the elections are free and open and honest, and once the leadership doesn't single out individuals to impede from addressing the membershippeople and IBT Congress and to run for office, nor block or censor from the forums media; younger, newer volunteers citizens can step up and help the general membershippopulation alter the constitution and by-laws to allow the current imbalance of power to be redistributed.

Funny thing, democracy. Over 200 years of government "by, for and of" the people and we always seem to have a handful of rascals running the nation.

The WBCCI still has, what... around 7,000 members? How many of those 7,000 really involved in this fight? How many people have left because of the IBT's mismanagement? Funny thing, court. You think all of the facts are on your side and a clever lawyer will paint a much different picture. How many people have contributed to the legal fight? 100? 200? 400? Even if 500 people have written a check, that means 6500 haven't. In point of fact, you could radically change the WBCCI by convincing a mere 50 percent, 3500, to withhold dues for a year... and not spend a nickel on an attorney.

I know it's hard, but try to see the world through the IBT's eyes. The WBCCI extant is all that they have ever known. Even if a few hundred people are up in arms, there are several thousand who aren't. People are still paying dues. I'm sure there are those in the WBCCI waiting for their turn to "ride for free." And I'm sure there are people who are happy with how the club is being run. Trust me... if you go to trial, you'll hear this point made repeatedly.

Based on my admittedly limited grasp of the situation, I agree that the International leadership is hurting the WBCCI. Where I differ with some, however, is the solution. As long as power (read "money") is centralized at the International level, this same song will repeat. The lawsuit only brings you closer to a solution if the people winning do so to dismantle the machine. Until the power (read "money") is firmly in the hands in the units, it will be old wine in new bottles.
Touche.' Obviously with my quote and your edits, you have quite apparently found me and my value system out. Good job, actually.

I can't disagree with you either. I am certain the EC7 is "banking" on the majority of silent members and tethered co-leaders and for various reasons they can enjoy a certain degree of insulation and arrogance.

Withholding membership dues is another approach. Drafting amendments or writing to leadership or expressing ideas and concerns on social networks are more avenues of involvement. All means are welcome and combined I think leadership is finally acknowleging and admitting there is a problem, though on what that is remains debatable.

I think a lawsuit was a good option once Leo G. was expelled without recourse unjustifiably. I think the Mid Winter's handling of combining the many grievance committee motions and addressing them only in closed door session secreted away from the simulcast and membership in attendance also has an important part in the decision to try communication outside the normal channels of club order. If it were not for those two particulars I might have chosen other options myself. But here you have leadership cheating in the elections, cheating in trumping up charges and expulsion and cheating in the judicial processes of grievances and meeting procedures and lying about the application of malicious computer scripts designed to ban black listed members from the official forums and all contrived in an concerted effort to eliminate critical competition. Fraud, discrimination, and disception are just a few of those actionable items that could be addressed.

As has been pointed out, we could lose all the money spent on this. I don't think that will be the outcome, but even if it were I would not hesitate a moment to do it over again. I am not playing the odds and picking only the winners. I am supporting a movement and action to hold the leadership accountable for their actions and misdeeds. They can only put down so many before things change. Leo was first. I want to stand up and take a turn too.

Ideally Leo will be back within the WBCCI to campaign and we will happily be allowed to vote our conscience, even in an rv club. And if we lose, we lose with honor, but quitting and cheating is not an option.
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:47 PM   #345
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Silvertwinkie,

Since this matter no longer involves just a few members but an entire Unit of the WBCCI, will the powers on the WBCCI forums allow a thread talking about the matter to be started and if so, will it be allowed to link to defendwally.org website?
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Old 05-05-2010, 01:12 PM   #346
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And, will they allow it to proceed without overzealous moderation - you know, let there be open and honest communication?
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Old 05-05-2010, 01:24 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by rideair View Post
Silvertwinkie,

Since this matter no longer involves just a few members but an entire Unit of the WBCCI, will the powers on the WBCCI forums allow a thread talking about the matter to be started and if so, will it be allowed to link to defendwally.org website?

I think we've been around these types of questions before. Some of the things you ask are not my call, they are WBCCI's call. For example, putting links to another site. If WBCCI says sure, it's not my place to say "but wait". If WBCCI says no, then if one were to put a link, it would seem equally clear what the outcome would be. So I think the better place to place this question is with WBCCI.

In terms of the first part of your question, I don't personally have any issue with a healthy, but civil discussion. Most of these types of conversations though are not in the public areas that I help manage. Most of these kinds of conversations are in the member only areas which I don't have access to. Now I have spoken several times with the group (Charlie, Diane and Greg) and the consensus has always been that civil, constructive and factual conversations are fine. However, as you know, this is a touchy subject and they easily escalate quickly. Even here, there are times when things get to a point where actions are taken. If you saw fit to post this in the member only area following the terms of the TOS, some of which I highlighted here, I can't see it being an issue.

This is my personal take. Keep in mind, it's not my site, it belongs to WBCCI. I may help manage the outside face of that forum, but I don't set policy.

As for Tim's post, he has openly said many times he has no desire to post or participate there, so is that really a question Tim or just a jab?
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:22 PM   #348
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Quote:

As for Tim's post, he has openly said many times he has no desire to post or participate there, so is that really a question Tim or just a jab?
Well, being as you don't have to be an actual member to participate in this venue, and being as you take full liberty to enjoy that completely free venue here, will it exist there as well? It is irrelevant whether or not I participate there. The question is an honest one - you know it!
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:58 PM   #349
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Well, being as you don't have to be an actual member to participate in this venue, and being as you take full liberty to enjoy that completely free venue here, will it exist there as well? It is irrelevant whether or not I participate there. The question is an honest one - you know it!
I think my previously stated answer was fairly self explanatory, Tim. If you need further clarification, shoot me a PM and we'll talk offline.
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Old 05-05-2010, 05:30 PM   #350
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The entire issue of how the WBBCI forum is run will be addressed in the suit.
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Old 05-05-2010, 05:41 PM   #351
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I think my previously stated answer was fairly self explanatory, Tim. If you need further clarification, shoot me a PM and we'll talk offline.
Come on Twinkie lets not start the same level of censorship you apply on that so called WBCCI Forum. Lets keep our discussions open and in front of the public.

The first and last thread I ever posted over there was removed in less than an hour. It just so happened to be a link to a thread on this forum. Are you now saying such a post might last more than an hour.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:33 PM   #352
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How about we try this and maybe Silvertwinkie will help.

Some can write a clear concise “Thread Post” about how the Metro NY Unit has now signed on to be the principle plaintiff in the lawsuit and has committed $2,000.00 from the Units treasury in support of this action. One could include the list of reasons for this lawsuit from the defendwally.org website and state if there are other members or Unit leaders that feel/think the same way to please contact XXX person or the Metro NY Unit for more details.

I would make the post no more than three short paragraphs and include the list from defendwally.org at the end. No name calling and such, just clear facts.


This “post” can then be submitted to the powers at the forums website for the WBCCI for approval and comment.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:40 PM   #353
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Gene

No one has ever voiced and thoughts of changing the progression up through the ranks. There is nothing wrong with that and it serves the Club well to have experienced individuals coming along. That part of the election system that has to be changed is the method of entering the progression. As long as there is only a single slate of hand picked successors presented to the membership nothing will ever change. The intent of the suit is to brake the strangle hold that deigns nominations to any office other than those presented by the nomination committee.

This is not a coup, revolution, takeover, or overthrow. No one here is seeking power. We are seeking the return of the governance of the Club to the membership. If the membership once repowered wants to underwrite the current conditions at least they will have voted on it rather than having it decreed.

We can not predict how a Strong Membership will act, once they regain the rights that they have lost, but by damned I for one am willing to give them a chance.
I can't disagree with empowering the members, but I am unsure whether they want to be empowered. I think to really change the organization, you do have to involve yourselves in elections and seek change through leadership positions. That is the political side of a strategy of reform.

So far as the progression up through the ranks, that is one way of running an organization. Another way is to let anyone run no matter how inexperienced they are and hoping fresh perspectives enliven the leadership. By the time someone gets to the IBT they are possibly co-opted. A mix of experiences in years in office and years on the planet, seems to me a good idea.

But, litigation will not solve most of the issues around elections, nominations and bylaw requirements for holding upper positions. Only politics can solve that. Perhaps you have that covered and if you are working behind the scenes to do so, fine. That's how all political movements start.

I can't wait to see the Complaint.

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Old 05-05-2010, 07:54 PM   #354
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Twinkie

At 9:50 pm EST a link was posted on the other Forum under the Front Porch section.
http://forum.wbcci.org/front-porch/1129-wbcci-sued.html

Lets see if it is up in the am.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:54 PM   #355
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Come on Twinkie lets not start the same level of censorship you apply on that so called WBCCI Forum. Lets keep our discussions open and in front of the public.

The first and last thread I ever posted over there was removed in less than an hour. It just so happened to be a link to a thread on this forum. Are you now saying such a post might last more than an hour.
No, what that means is that based on Twink's statement a few messages back, it is WBCCI who has decided that links to sites like Airforums are what is not authorized and has required that they be removed, likely because of their inappropriateness. I have no doubt that WBCCI has provided a complete set of guidelines for the admins and mods to follow there.
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Old 05-05-2010, 08:00 PM   #356
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...or in other words banned from being linked. However I think I saw links and or quotes to posts on Air Forums made by the administration when it suits the administration's point of view. That particular WBCCI forum is more than moderated. It is orchestrated for tone and opinion. If you post an opinion that alone is reason for deletion because it can be credited to be unfactual and then accordingly disallowed, unless it is reenforcing an accepted point of view and in that case it is then encouraged regardless of its factual basis. Sanctions are not applied equally across the board and the administrators have total latitude to impune any one's comments as divisive and negative. I and many others decided a long time ago that the hit or miss success rate of postings was not worth the time and energy to create them. Ask Rob what he thinks of their censorship. Many have left or no longer post in disgust over the overtly aggressive censorship of the forums. I remember one post made by another individual that was so radically edited the only sentence that stood was the member's introduction of himself. Ridiculous!
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Old 05-05-2010, 08:23 PM   #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowieE View Post
Twinkie

At 9:50 pm EST a link was posted on the other Forum under the Front Porch section.
http://forum.wbcci.org/front-porch/1129-wbcci-sued.html

Lets see if it is up in the am.
Howie it's gone, I made screen shots (exhibits) for the litigation before and after.

The forum is a tool for members they should not be censored like this.

They also shouldn't have a used Airstream dealer running and advertising on it like he owns it.

.
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Old 05-05-2010, 08:40 PM   #358
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Gene you have a PM
Replied.

Am I to surmise from the previous posts the Complaint has been served and/or filed? Will it or a link appear here?

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Old 05-05-2010, 08:59 PM   #359
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Eric, your WBCCI forum would not allow others to quote their intellectual property from their members only section of the WBCCI forum. You are not even allowed there as a moderator of their forums. Yet you have posted member only posts here for the general public. You must be a member of Save Wally to have access to Wally's Inside Track from whence you copied and pasted Leo's comments speaking to his supporters. I am not certain of the ethical position to post sensitive matters publically using your membership at Save Wally to breach that security. As a moderator yourself of WBCCI, I am surprised at your action. Why exactly did you think that was pertinent here? Your point? Or did you just want to be the first to scoop "Bull Dog." It's no wonder they don't let you in the members only section! You have done what your own WBCCI forum forbids others from doing, have you not? However we do appreciate the publicity and spike in hits to the thread. Now can you help us out on WBCCI forums the same way, since you are obviously signed up as a Save Wally supporter and member? Many of us don't bother to chack their pages you could repost here for our convenience, and if it is members only material, so much the better, for all the readers don't you think?
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:01 PM   #360
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Come on Twinkie lets not start the same level of censorship you apply on that so called WBCCI Forum. Lets keep our discussions open and in front of the public.

The first and last thread I ever posted over there was removed in less than an hour. It just so happened to be a link to a thread on this forum. Are you now saying such a post might last more than an hour.
I don't follow you, I've made it pretty clear and chose not to repeat myself sparing folks reading the same response. How that can be translated into censorship only proves to me that you're not listening or selectively reading into what you want, but let me clarify.....

What I am saying is that club private business is kept in the members only section. Like it or not, that is the way it is, plain and simple. It would appear your post to the public are is not there and I haven't asked about it since again, I thought I made it clear that kind of discussion is not public business. So what do you do, you go and post it to the public area and no doubt, you'll complain tomorrow that it's not there. Do I need to draw pictures, use smaller words?!?!

As for your first and last post Howie you and I both know your sole purpose was to incite over Leo's dismissal from the club.

Paul, if you'd like to put something as indicated earlier following the TOS, I would be happy to see what I can do to assist.

LI, you are one unique individual. I mean, I really like you. You peak my curiosity, but you spend your days, time and money to do it better than Greg or WBCCI has rather than spend your days like Ahab chasing his whale.

I am missing your points Carol. My WBCCI forum? Not. You and the VO talking ethics is hysterical. If I had a buck for every distortion, theft of image, mail lists and anything else I've read in various places from the VO which you are clearly a part of, I could retire.... I mean really, the VO is totally disorganized. LI says one thing, Howie another, Leo another, Rob, Frank are on a different page than the rest and you go where the wind blows. Frank disagrees, gets piled on buy folks who feel similarly. Many times folks don't agree with the VO, they get piled on. I truly feel I should be the least of y'all's worries.
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