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Old 03-24-2010, 10:02 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
...In July of 2009 our leadership approved an $81,000 deficit spending budget for 2010...
the approval of a negative budget is troublesome, but NOT uncommon for some years and in some budgets for some organizations.

since the club $$ chest can COVER this amount (and do so 4 several years) it is also NOT a death blow.

my understanding is that a/s corp STOPPED sending 75K$ annually to the wb'...just last year.

so having ONE year where that dramatic/sudden LOSS of 75$ with ANOTHER 6K$ of OVER spending...

isn't THAT outta line.

in fact compared to the PRIOR year loss it IS a dramatic improvement...

i think the government refers to this as an DECREASE in the loss and an IMPROVED rate of decline...
________

one could argue that a year or 2 or 3 like this...

GIVES the bobble heads time to REadjust spending, FIND new revenue streams and plug the money hole.

one of those ADjustments may be jacking the membership fee way UP...

can they do it? will they make it? who will get nicked UP in the process...

i dunno.

the CLUB has fundamentally been in financial trouble for years but without much $$ loss to reveal that trouble.

NOW the trouble matches the dough hole...
_________

member REVOLT is a good thing and should have been happening LONG ago...

when past members suggested REVOLT some suggested

"find a new place to play, we LOVE our club and every penny is WORTH it"

when the RISK of financial failure was pointed out to THOSE folks a few years ago, the reply was...

"clubs got a million buck in d'bank don't sweat it"

now those 'we love wally' folks are up in arms about the money?

money isn't the real save/defend issue, just like 1m1v was never a real initiative...

it's pretty clear to MANY watching OR staying on the sidelines that this is about a few members getting clipped.

and a LOT of public crying about it.

cheers
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Old 03-25-2010, 12:35 PM   #202
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Gene,

We have distinctly different perspectives. I respect your opinion as a former attorney. I trust you'll do the same for me as a devout non-attorney who routinely works with the legal system.

To me, this is a little like my wife suing me to make me a better a husband. She could certainly make a fair argument about my lack of fiscal responsibility, my occasionally undemocratic decision making and my insensivity to her grievances. For the sake of discussion, say my wife sues and we make it to court. Win or lose, do you think the outcome of the litigation is really going to make me a better husband? Without doubt, a protracted, internecine legal battle is going to change the relationship, but how?

There are times in legal wranglings where one can win the battle but lose the war. Rarely have I seen examples where litigation united the participants. Far more often, it drives the wedges deeper. Even if--contrary to my prediction--those challenging the WBCCI win on every possible point, what's left when the dust settles? How many people leave the WBCCI over the rift?

The legal system, Gene, is better than many of its critics think, but worse than many of its proponents will admit. It does something things well, albeit slowly and often at great expense. It can imprison and free, punish and reward, but it cannot change the human heart.
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Old 03-25-2010, 12:52 PM   #203
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So far the WBCCI is more like a shrimp.
The body is pretty good... but the head needs to be cut off... then a little bit of accommodement to finish the recipe.

May be the court can be a good cook...
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Old 03-25-2010, 01:17 PM   #204
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now those 'we love wally' folks are up in arms about the money?

money isn't the real save/defend issue, just like 1m1v was never a real initiative...
I have always thought the dues were too high at the International level for what the general membership gets in return. Obviously unit dues renders much higher value and member satisfaction while the International level of club dues allows the elite to fare much more advantageously than mere members experience for their time, effort and money.

1M1V and MALS, also, have always been a priority of mine, but then I am only one individual, but then so we all are individuals here.

I think LIPets has asked you why you have such great opposition. It is not simply asking for pledges. And frankly even if this was singularly about helping Leo after he has tried to represent and volunteer so much time and effort to the club in research and trying to run for candidacy and making the unit guide and writing articles and submitting photos that appeared in the BB and so many other initiatives such as always encouraging membership drive, what is your objection to that?
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Old 03-25-2010, 01:28 PM   #205
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Bob and Howie, great letter!!! I think you have hit on the issues very well and I think folks will view it as informative and positive. I can't see why it "Bugs" anyone but I guess there is always someone out there that's gonna be mad as a March hare.
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Old 03-25-2010, 02:41 PM   #206
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...what is your objection to that?
no objection here to any wb' member doing anything relative to the wb'...

good/bad/conforming/nonconforming/rebellious/praise/whatever...

the issue is SOLICITING $$$funds$$$ HERE.

or REDIRECTS to another site SOLICITING $$$funds$$$...

any1 of us might have a PET PROJECT and wanna raise awareness or SOLICIT financial support.

but that's NOT supposed to be allowed here for ANY project/cause/club...

or local bunch of about to be EX members of the wb' who's LONG term plan has backfired...
__________

can i raise money here for the neighbor kid with leukemia?

he's clearly deserving and IN NEED of support.

how about to pay MY winter gas bill?

it's a whopper!

please don't let me FREEZE next year, i only need 1$ from a few 100 good 'streamer folks...
______________

in an earlier post you wrote this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
...Those that have been driven mad from these threads on the club forum, save yourselves and avert your eyes.

There is tastier fish for you to fry elsewhere.

Don't torture yourselves with heroic efforts to subvert.

We have been shouted down many times over and we still have a place to post.

Deal with it.
yeah well i am DEALING with it.

and if that means posting to REMIND that SOLICITING money and REDIRECTs are in poor taste...

and against the rulz here...

that's what will be the dealing...

the mods HAVE removed posts from this thread and HAVE deleted other thread or combined them into this one...

i realize they are TRYING to give everyone a fair SHAKE and allow SOME action in this thread.

and appreciate the dance they do in that regard.

but THERE HAS BEEN NO ACTION, NO UPDATE, NO PROGRESS of ANY sort...

MONEY is being raised and WHEN the pot is full somethin' might happen.
__________

so IF the only posts were "here's where we are on the legal action..."

that would be nice and would actually BE an update.
__________

instead we get "new website, new stuff to read OVER HERE...."

and send us some money "over here"....
__________

no of us OPPOSED to the regular NON updates, site redirects and soliciting of $$$funds$$$...

have to 'avert our eyes', save ourselves or risk torture...

and we are not shouting in our OPPOSITION to MISusing this site for personal gains ELSEWHERE...

and it is HUGELY ironic that a few people think MISUSING this site to get money is OK and rightous...

so they can SUE the wb' club leadership for MISUSING the club to SPEND money.


so yeah there is still a place to post here...

u deal with 'dat!



cheers
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Old 03-25-2010, 03:15 PM   #207
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This thread is about solicitation of funds, as are the letters we are receiving in our personal email accounts, and there is still no plan for funding this for years IF AND WHEN enough money is raised to simply BEGIN.

It is disingenuous, at least.

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Old 03-25-2010, 04:42 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by doug&maggie View Post
This thread is about solicitation of funds, as are the letters we are receiving in our personal email accounts, and there is still no plan for funding this for years IF AND WHEN enough money is raised to simply BEGIN.

It is disingenuous, at least.

Maggie
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The original post is about the proposal/details of a lawsuit and not specifically about soliciting funds. While some latitude has been allowed in this thread and some other content moved into this thread, AIRs intent is for sharing knowledge - not soliciting funds. The OP was cautious about this when posting and we ask that other posters are as well. We are still trying to find some balance on this issue and are mindful about boundaries being pushed too far.
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:21 PM   #209
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Gene,

We have distinctly different perspectives. I respect your opinion as a former attorney. I trust you'll do the same for me as a devout non-attorney who routinely works with the legal system.

To me, this is a little like my wife suing me to make me a better a husband. She could certainly make a fair argument about my lack of fiscal responsibility, my occasionally undemocratic decision making and my insensivity to her grievances. For the sake of discussion, say my wife sues and we make it to court. Win or lose, do you think the outcome of the litigation is really going to make me a better husband? Without doubt, a protracted, internecine legal battle is going to change the relationship, but how?

There are times in legal wranglings where one can win the battle but lose the war. Rarely have I seen examples where litigation united the participants. Far more often, it drives the wedges deeper. Even if--contrary to my prediction--those challenging the WBCCI win on every possible point, what's left when the dust settles? How many people leave the WBCCI over the rift?

The legal system, Gene, is better than many of its critics think, but worse than many of its proponents will admit. It does something things well, albeit slowly and often at great expense. It can imprison and free, punish and reward, but it cannot change the human heart.
Hamp', your analogy is not quite on point as I see it. An intimate relationship such as a marriage is not the same as the relationships between a club and its members. But if your point is that litigation causes rifts that are difficult, if not impossible to heal, that is often true. However, when business's sue each other, it's just a business decision and the companies may get along fine afterwards, so there's another, very different, analogy.

Many times litigation does result in some sort of "victory", but the price can be high. Some people sue out of anger and it may be displaced anger (anger at someone else long ago directed at someone or something in the present) or being treated unfairly (a more valid anger coming from unfair treatment). Angry clients can be very bad clients, but they also may have a valid case. Most lawyers try to avoid Borderline or psychotic clients, but you just don't always know what they may turn out to be. And sometimes it just the only way to resolve a dispute. Sometimes filing a lawsuit is the only way to get the other guy to hear you—like the donkey and the 2 x 4.

I think a good lawyer tries to talk clients out of needless lawsuits, or direct them to a less painful strategy.

I think many lawyers are concerned with the costs of the legal system. In the '90's, around 80% of marital dissolution cases in the Denver area were done by the parties without lawyers. Mostly, they couldn't afford lawyers. But they often had to hire lawyers later to straighten out the mess they had created. It's very hard to practice law without high office expenses and I have no good solution to that, but that is what drives legal fees as much as anything.

50 years or so ago there was a movement to bring out all the facts before a dispute went to trial. The discovery system was invented to allow the parties to exchange all the information beforehand and to take extensive depositions. It was thought that would prevent many trials, save money and provide a fair result. But it hasn't always worked that way and some lawyers abuse the process by demanding expensive, extensive, endless discovery. By the end of the '90's the Colorado Supreme Court tried to stop that abuse by limiting discovery a lot, though I am unsure how that has worked out since I retired shortly after (I am not a "former" lawyer, but a retired one—still have my license but am rapidly becoming obsolete).

I don't know the intent of the potential plaintiffs in the WBCCI dispute. Maybe what they want is what they say (sometimes cynicism is a bad approach)—to improve the fiscal situation of the club. Maybe they want to force improvement in governance. Maybe they want to stimulate a revolt of members and force out the present leadership. All are valid goals on their face. I have no doubt it will get ugly, but ugly, as unpleasant as it is, may be better managed by logical, dispassionate lawyers than the parties themselves. Most any lawyer will tell you they'd rather negotiate with another lawyer than a pro se party who is emotionally involved in the outcome. There's also saying, perhaps a truism, a judge told me (not about me): "bad clients hire bad lawyers". Every case is different.

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Old 03-25-2010, 07:10 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug&maggie View Post
This thread is about solicitation of funds, as are the letters we are receiving in our personal email accounts, and there is still no plan for funding this for years IF AND WHEN enough money is raised to simply BEGIN.

It is disingenuous, at least. Maggie
Baloney, there is a plan perhaps you need to reread that email?
If your interest was genuine you would not be making these uniformed posts.
There was a link in that email for more info did you seek any additional info?

We had a good response from that email todate so the if and when is becoming yes and soon!

-----------------

Gene, the key factor that the supporters are counting on in this action is settled case law on the issues.

Many, many clubs have crossed this threshold before and lost.

We are not in uncharted waters.


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Old 03-25-2010, 07:34 PM   #211
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Baloney, there is a plan perhaps you need to reread that email? If your interest was genuine you would not be making these uniformed posts. There was a link in that email for more info did you seek any additional info? ...
I just reread the email as well as defendwally.org. Yes, the latter site does ask for input ("Message to WBCCI"). Just above that text input block is the request for monetary pledges. ("Your help & your pledge to contribute to support this effort. We are not collecting any contributions at this time, but we are collecting pledges for contributions. When the time comes to move forward, we will be contacting all of those interested in contributing details on how to complete your pledge.")

The site does include a shortlist of complaints:
  • Breach of fiduciary duty for allegedly misappropriating funds.
  • Travel expenses -The Wally Byam Caravan Club International, Inc., is a non-profit corporation and no part of its income or profits shall inure to the benefit of its certain members/officers.
  • The IBT failed to act prudently and reasonably in regard to the management of the organization’s affairs.
  • The IBT failed to its duties to ensure effective organizational planning, establish programs and services consistent with the organization’s mission and assist in implementing and monitoring the plan’s goals.
  • The IBT failed to provide financial oversight and assist in developing a balanced annual budget and ensuring that proper financial controls are in place.
  • The IBT failed to manage, supervise and control the activities, affairs, property and funds of the International Club.
  • The IBT failed to ensure legal and ethical integrity and maintain accountability for adherence to legal standards and ethical practices.
  • The IBT failed to establish procedures to ensure that each board member understands and complies with his or her duties as a board member.
  • The IBT failed to monitor the conduct of its board members to ensure the organization is being properly managed.
  • The IBT allowed frivolous grievances to be filed.
  • The IBTs broad definition of the wording “avoid disharmony and ill feelings among club members”.
  • The IBT failed to follow the bylaws or Robert Rules in adjudication of grievances.
  • The IBT draconian measures terminating members and defamation of several members.
  • Discrimination unfair practices of raising MAL dues.
All of these have been discussed here or on SaveWally, I think.

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Old 03-25-2010, 07:40 PM   #212
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In my experience, Gene, there can be more passion in club politics than in the marital bedroom... present company excluded, of course. And in many marriages, husband and wives often have the good sense to give up trying to "improve" the other. In my case, I decided long ago my wife is perfect and she decided long ago that I am incorrigible.

I've had plenty of experience involving youth sports organizations, parent-teacher associations, homeowner's associations, etc. Some of the most bitter infighting and power struggles I've seen have been in churches. I agree that attorneys--working as dispassionate, objective advocates--can help broker resolutions. I also know that a time comes when the attorney picks up his or her check... and the couple, the family, the organization, the club, remains. The legal system is, by its nature, adversarial. The legal process produces winners and losers. Perhaps you'll think I'm cynical, but I don't see a happy ending to WBCCI litigation. One side will win; the other will lose. The bad feelings will linger on long after the legal matter is settled.
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Old 03-25-2010, 07:50 PM   #213
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One side will win; the other will lose. The bad feelings will linger on long after the legal matter is settled.
The bad feelings will linger on regardless of whether or not legal action is taken. There is always the hope that through action the winning side will be reversed.

The problem is not the choice to take legal action. Legal action is one indication that there is a problem. Seeking justice outside of the club when it cannot be established within is of course adversarial. But not seeking it at all would not be the better alternative.
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Old 03-26-2010, 06:35 AM   #214
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Baloney, there is a plan perhaps you need to reread that email?
If your interest was genuine you would not be making these uniformed posts.
There was a link in that email for more info did you seek any additional info?

We had a good response from that email todate so the if and when is becoming yes and soon!

Thank you, Lynn/Eubank, for also pointing this out. I read it all, and find NO PLAN/SOURCE FOR FUNDING THIS FOR YEARS IN FEDERAL COURT. If, somehow, we have all missed it, please cite it in a pm to me, I will stop "making these uninformed posts" and correct myself publicly right here on this thread.

Your anger, upset, feelings of persecution and being treated unfairly are heard, we understand them and the reasonings behind them. No one is saying they aren't legitimate and anyone put in these situations would and does feel the same way. See my other posts on this matter, and trust me on that.

Those points made, again, trying to whip WBCCI members/former members into a feeding frenzy against the IBT to start something that cannot be finished seems pointless and will ultimately cause more harm than good. You must be aware of this on some level, so perhaps that is the intent?

Maggie
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Old 03-26-2010, 06:53 AM   #215
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Carol,

The WBCCI has what, around 7,000 members? It seems to me that if a majority of those members were unhappy with the WBCCI, the club would be changing... without litigation. Let's say, for the sake of discussion, you have 100, 200 or even 500 people willing to write you a check to fund the litigation. Even with 500 people firmly in your camp, you're talking about less than ten percent of the WBCCI.

I'm not a member so I don't have a dog in this fight. I also try to see things from more than one side. There are folks in the WBCCI who are going to hear this litigation talk and conclude that it is a disgruntled minority who want to change the club while they are perfectly content with the club the way it is.

If there are 7,000 members, Carol, all sending in a check for $75 a year (or whatever the freight is), some people must be happy with the WBCCI exactly the way it is. I'm not saying the International leadership is right. I'm just saying if this thing rolls into court--and you pop in to hear opening arguments--the WBCCI attorneys are going to describe the club as a group where the vast majority of members are happy with the leadership.
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:27 AM   #216
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It is also possible that, of those 7,000 members (more like 6,000 and some change), some don't know what's going on and their only means of receiving information is from the BB, since not every WBCCI member is an Air Forums member.

Hopefully this lawsuit will wake the IBT/EC-7 up; kinda like when a puppy poops on your new carpet and you smack it with a newspaper.
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:36 AM   #217
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I'm just saying if this thing rolls into court--and you pop in to hear opening arguments--the WBCCI attorneys are going to describe the club as a group where the vast majority of members are happy with the leadership.
Just to clarify you're not a member, correct?

I think we can say there is no longer an IF it goes to court, IT is going to court.
I can say this based on the pledges to date.

Their not happy they are just afraid to speak out because if they do they may get a grievance against them.

vast majority of members are happy, vast majority are in the dark anyway
it wouldn't matter if it was one person.
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:48 AM   #218
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Just to clarify you're not a member, correct?
Hi Bob, "Just to clarify" As a member of Airforums you should be able to post to any thread on Airforums no matter what your outside affiliations are.
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:54 AM   #219
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Sure, I only asked for clarification did I not?
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Old 03-26-2010, 09:23 AM   #220
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Maggie, hemstead38, 2air

You all tend to run with the majority. Of the 39,000 individuals that are members of this Forum over 80% are not members of the Club. Why is that? 2air is clearly in another majority that you, Maggie and hemstead38, may also be in. Of the 30,000 plus members the Club had 20 years ago there were 6136 left as of the beginning of this year. Of that number many have recorded comments here and elsewhere that they will not be members next year.

It is that steep and predictably declining membership that this action is attempting to halt and while distasteful to many, even to those involved, is clearly a last resort. All forms of internal relief have been tried only to be ruled Out of Order, or tabled to eternity solely to retain the privileged lifestyle of the Leadership. Yes we could all just quite and let the Leadership spend down the bank account to zero while driving off into the sunset. But it's our money they are spending and that is not acceptable.

Rather than stand on the side lines and attempt to derail the effort why not let it play out. Who knows you all might consider joining a Club dedicated to Airstreams and unburdened of these leaches.

There has been an attempt to reach the majority of the Clubs membership and comments, supporting the action, from those members are starting to come in. You can follow them here http://defendwally.org/what-they-are-saying
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