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Old 03-18-2010, 10:29 AM   #181
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Just to be a bug in their soup, I am trying to convince Chris (my partner in crime), and 024 Unit Prez, that we should do President's Parking in Gillette until the VAC Parade. .
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Old 03-18-2010, 10:31 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Coloradobus View Post
... At Perry when Jim Franklin lambasted Shari Davis...
If it would have been the other way around, a grievance would have been filled up against her...
But in that case nothing happened, or would have happened... some members are "more equal".

You can say wathever you want... it won't make any difference.

The club is already in trouble.

I think people that have a problem with the current action need to understand that the action is intended to save the 50 years old club.
I myself don't understand how some have something to say against that. It's the dictatorship that is killing the club, not Leo and the ones that want to act!

It is that simple. Anyhow it seems simple to me.
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:29 AM   #183
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I routinely deal with attorneys. One in particular, who is also a good friend, is fond of asking me--tongue-in-cheek and when I have a legal opinion--"So where did you get your law degree"?

I would ask you that question, Bob, but I already know you aren't an attorney. Besides, it would seem snide, and I'm a pretty decent guy. Here's the thing. A layperson's reading of case law and $1 will buy you a cup of coffee downtown. That's why the legal profession has litigators, people who earn a living by knowing the difference between what the law library says and how judges will rule.

The WBCCI is a private social club. Like about 99 percent of private social clubs, it has some disgruntled members. I'm going to out on a limb here and say you don't have evidence of criminal wrongdoing. If you did, there wouldn't be any reason to hire an attorney. So, it's a civil matter. At the end of the day, you (or whoever) is going to have to convince a judge to muck around in the internal dealings of a private club.

I don't know how much litigation you've been around, Bob, but suing people (or corporations) is an expensive hobby. The WBCCI is going to have D&O insurance, liability insurance, possibly in-house counsel and a significantly bigger "war chest" than a "pass-the-hat" group of volunteers. I'm not saying that pejoratively, but the reality is that money matters when it comes to litigation.

As for this "we-need-to-save-the-club" impulse, I get it. People clearly have a deep emotional attachment to the red numbers, blue hats and yellow ballons (obscure WonderBread reference there ) This is America. If you want spend your money on litigation againt the WBCCI or a collection of pink flamingos... that is your right. I don't think you have a chance, but let me offer this. After an attorney drafts the complaint, send me a copy. I'll talk to a few of my attorney friends over drinks (I'll have to buy) and I'll get a consensus opinion on your chances. If the tavern star chamber thinks your odds are better then 50/50, I'll send you a check. See, I told you I was nice.
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:34 AM   #184
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... At Perry when Jim Franklin lambasted Shari Davis, I wished I had stood up beside her, but was so dumbfounded at Franklins remarks, I couldn't move. Hindsight.

...

Just to correct the record, don't think that Jim Franklin is on my Christmas card list, it was not him but the sitting president of one of the regions.

Jim Franklin has said a lot of dumb things but this was not one of them.

Bill
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:43 AM   #185
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Just to correct the record, it was not him but the sitting president of one of the regions.
Would that be the same "gentleman" who was recently annointed at the recent Mid-Winters to be on the International Nominating Committee?
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:17 PM   #186
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Coloradobus

With respect to your idea to stand at the International I truly hope that they will be served before that and I think it will be an open discussion among the attending members. The IBT strategy is to wait and hope we all die off before they do so we have to speed up the clock a bit.

Hampstead38

As you so apply asked Bob and have been asked this before, "Where did you get your law degree". Yes you will receive a copy of the complaint and I hope you enjoy your drinks while discussing it.
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:44 PM   #187
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Dick Heyde was the Region 5 President (as a member of the IBT) is the person who brought Shari Davis to tears as she was giving a report (for the VAC president) when he verbally attacked her. He is one of the two nominees (vote for two) that will be "elected" at Gillette to be on the Nominating Committee. Larson personally apologized to Shari after the Rally.
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:46 PM   #188
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Well, Bill, yes it was Richard Hyde, I forgot, IP Don Shafer let it happen.
If this ever happens again to anyone in this club, the membership needs to standup and be along side the member who is being "tried"/
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:47 PM   #189
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I routinely deal with attorneys.

I would ask you that question, Bob, but I already know you aren't an attorney.
Correct, but I have been involved in many Federal lawsuits in order to protect my intellectual property, so although not an attorney, I have gone over case law with the attorney Leo intends to retain so it's not just my read.

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Originally Posted by hampstead38 View Post
I'm going to out on a limb here and say you don't have evidence of criminal wrongdoing.
No comment, until after discovery.

Quote:
The WBCCI is going to have D&O insurance, liability insurance, possibly in-house counsel and a significantly bigger "war chest" than a "pass-the-hat" group of volunteers.
They will need a bigger war chest due to the fact they will not be using their local or in house counsel. They will likely hire a NY firm. Also in house are not usually admitted to federal practice.

Quote:
After an attorney drafts the complaint, send me a copy. I'll talk to a few of my attorney friends over drinks (I'll have to buy) and I'll get a consensus opinion on your chances. If the tavern star chamber thinks your odds are better then 50/50, I'll send you a check. See, I told you I was nice.
The complaint will be published, it's a matter of public record anyway.

I'm confident we'll see a big fat check from you

.
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Old 03-18-2010, 03:31 PM   #190
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Well, Bill, yes it was Richard Hyde, I forgot, IP Don Shafer let it happen.
If this ever happens again to anyone in this club, the membership needs to standup and be along side the member who is being "tried"/
It HAS happened to others. But instead of the good old-fashioned public berating and bullying of folks that Mr. Heyde and Mr. Franklin are so fond of, the new school tactic is to use the grievance "process" to silence and humiliate outspoken members. BTW, this "process" was "cleaned up" at the same Mid-Winters that put Dick Heyde on the International Nominating Committee. Interestingly, the new grievance bylaws had to be discussed behind closed doors, unlike the dues raise that was discussed openly and simulcast, and what we're now left with completely tramples over members' rights to Due Process.

Fortunately, some of the membership who refuse to be intimidated, in this thread, at SaveWally, at DefendWally, at their respective unit's business meetings, are trying to "stand up and be along side the member who is being 'tried.'" They're fighting back and they want to take their club back from the arrogant bullies who keep spawning arrogant bullies. Does anyone else want to stand up and be counted?

.
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Old 03-18-2010, 10:31 PM   #191
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Sorry, Bob, but I never promised anyone here a "big, fat" check. I enjoy Quixotic tilting at windmills as well as the next guy... but let's not get carried away. Having a few laughs over drinks isn't really worth much more than a movie ticket or two.

It's pretty clear you guys have it all figured out. I'll wager someone will post a play-by-play on Airforums so we'll all get to find it if you really had a legal case, and if so, if winning it changed the WBCCI into what you wanted it to be.
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Old 03-24-2010, 04:47 PM   #192
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I have stayed away from this thread because I thought it would give me a headache. It didn't, but may soon.

It seems to have attracted lawyers and lawyer bashers. The thread also reflects the emotional nature of these issues.

I have a few thoughts.

1. It appears to me the proponents of a lawsuit are well informed about the law and understand the risks. Litigation is a painful option and it looks to me the proponents are well aware of that.

2. When people have hit their head against the wall long enough, they can either walk away or hire an expert. It's not for me to judge which is best; every situation is different. Both options deserve respect.

3. When a corporation is mismanaged a lawsuit is an option. Sometimes those initiating litigation have limited goals (get a quick settlement) and sometimes they want to completely reform the corporation. I have no private knowledge of the goals here, though reform seems to be a major part. Whether or not the potential litigation is wise, there is a right to pursue it.

4. The lawyers are not the only ones who benefit. Three different posters have said that. I wonder what those people would do if they had a legal problem? Hire a dentist? I did not spend my career ripping off people and have known few colleagues who practiced law that way. Most of the latter get caught and were disciplined. Bashing lawyers is like shooting the messenger.

5. It can cost a lot to pursue federal litigation, but if you are a lawyer with a long career practicing before the federal bench, it is not unlikely you have friends who will handle a case like this at a reduced rate. That may be the situation here.

6. It's pretty hard to sort out all the facts about what's happening with the WBCCI, but it seems there are enough claims to get the plaintiffs to court (i.e., past a motion to dismiss and other similar motions). Throwing someone out of the organization without due process is in some states grounds for a claim and different lawyers will choose whether to include it or not—strategy plays a part there. I have no idea why it is not being pursued, but I have no private knowledge of what's happening.

7. Arbitration and mediation are not the same. They may happen in some situations because there is a contract requiring it (that's the usual case for arbitration and unlikely here), because the parties to litigation decide it is the best solution (no litigation as yet), or because a judge orders it. Arbitration may be binding, but it unlikely without a contract requiring it. Mediation is never binding—it is about the parties trying to resolve their dispute with the help of a professional mediator or a lawyer (who may also be a professional mediator). In the litigation process, sometimes mediation is attempted to save money and get the craziness over with. I left NY 32 years ago and have no idea what the Federal District Court judges do there now. My belief is that mediation hardly ever occurs in this type of problem until the litigation process has evolved quite a bit and the parties are looking at expenses. Given the situation here, it appears it would take quite a while before mediation would appear sensible to the parties. Hardly any litigation gets to court, but the process prior to trial tends to promote settlements (possibly through mediation) because the good thing is that the truth starts to emerge through discovery and contact between the lawyers, and the parties get tired of spending money, time and experiencing "litigation anxiety". Eventually parties begin to think, often prodded by their lawyers, it's time to get this thing over with. The clients with the highest bills are those that are very angry and/or very rigid personalities who don't listen to their lawyers; unfortunately those who are opposing them get to spend a lot too.

8. If it is true the WBCCI leadership is mismanaging the corporation, they would be causing the lawsuit to be brought. It will cost the WBCCI money, but to some there's a lot at stake. One thing is preserving the corporate reserves. They appear to be very substantial. And the history and tradition has value beyond money.

9. I wonder what a reformed WBCCI would look like. Would there still be flag parades, ties, berets, and the rest of it, but good money management? Fiscal responsibility is fine, but that other stuff doesn't appeal to me. There's more than fiscal issues here—there are cultural issues. I think there will be multiple Airstream groups in the future. The WBCCI will never be what it was, but maybe it can be saved as a smaller well run organization that doesn't alienate scores of potential, present and former members.

I guess I didn't have just a "few thoughts".

Gene
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Old 03-24-2010, 05:04 PM   #193
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excel'nt post g...

my issue with this thread is that it has been used PRIMARILY has a vehicle to solicit $$...

not simply to UPDATE us on the happenings.

1 simple post WHENEVER something substantial has happened would do that nicely...

so far we gots 100s of posts and NO real UPdates (ok mehbe 1)

(we cannot sensibly op/ed on the particulars since NONE Of them are posted here)
_____________

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
I wonder what those people would do if they had a legal problem? Hire a dentist?...
right on!

hiring a trained professional attorney is money WELL SPENT when necessary...

and often costs LESS than diy gyrations by those of us UNqualified for the task.
___________

otoh this fracas might just NEED a dentist...

like mehbe a hitman dds to pull teeth from ALL the parties involved.

then they could all gum wrestle for club supremacy...

someone hit the music, heres my hitman hire...

Click image for larger version

Name:	hitmandentist.jpg
Views:	75
Size:	21.8 KB
ID:	98727

and he's already done SOME work on the wb' leadership (yes that's what is under le' beret...)

Click image for larger version

Name:	IBT_toothremoval.jpg
Views:	80
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ID:	98728

IF the dds is unsuccessful, i know a proctologist who can solve this by pulling heads out of dark places ...

cheers
2air'
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Old 03-24-2010, 05:12 PM   #194
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My point #5 may be wrong because I misread something, but with the proponents having experience with lawyers, they may be able to get a good deal.

Lawsuits by members of a nonprofit are like shareholder derivative suits against a for profit corporation. This is a relatively new development in the law. They are the way to correct mismanagement when members cannot otherwise change the way the nonprofit is managed. I did not make that clear in my first post.

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Old 03-24-2010, 08:22 PM   #195
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Update

Ok 2air,

Here's an update, we would appreciate if you would stop side tracking this thread.
You are not a member.

DefendWally.org has a new page what members are saying.

About half the WBCCI members have been contacted by email today about this lawsuit.

Pledges are being posted.
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:30 PM   #196
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...You are not a member...
thank the stars above for THAT too!

was this a vote OFF the island or what?

but the rest of your post is...

1. a redirect to another site
2. money requests turned DOWNsideUP

and these things STILL appear to be counter to the TOU here...

and an insult to basic member intelligence.

do you kids think we are so gdumb 2 not know this?

and yet STILL no updates on the actual gumming or thumb wrestling...

cheers
2air'
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:33 PM   #197
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2. money requests turned DOWNsideUP

and these things STILL appear to be counter to the TOU here...

2air'
Joe, try that in english!
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:43 PM   #198
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and yet STILL no updates on the actual gumming or thumb wrestling...

cheers
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2much, 2air!!

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Joe, try that in english!
The only thing that wasn't in english was TOU, or Terms Of Use spelled out all proper-like.
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:53 PM   #199
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and yet STILL no updates on the actual gumming or thumb wrestling...
Thumb wrestling is a big deal now and it takes a while to set it up.

However I feel confident now that I can give you this up date. A Lawyer will be retained in the new few weeks. Unfortunately after that there will be an additional delay in up dates while he prepares the filing.

In the mean time you might want to follow things on defendwally.org and What they are saying… « defendwally.org to get an idea of what those truely interested in this action are thinking.

http://defendwally.org/
Please bear with us
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:34 PM   #200
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I have been ask to post a copy of the email.

A growing number of WBCCI members are dissatisfied with the ongoing mismanagement of our club. We have joined together to question the fiscal irresponsibility of our club’s leadership. In 2008 there was a ($44,202) financial operating loss, which was followed in 2009 by ($43,000) financial operating loss and then a ($103,000) at the Madison International Rally totaling ($146,000) for 2009.

In July of 2009 our leadership approved an ($81,000) deficit spending budget for 2010.
At this rate of year over year losses our 55 year old Wally Byam Caravan club will soon be bankrupt ...resulting in the devastating loss of an American icon founded Airstream Caravan Club.

These atrocious failures are directly tied to a leadership that is both self-selected and is unaccountable to the membership. The membership has no real choices when it comes to who runs the WBCCI, through a system designed by leadership that assures that leadership alone will choose its successors.If these issues bother you, then there is something that we can all do about it, but it starts with what you will decide to do next.

Decades of International Leadership have created established customs that are in direct opposition to the openness and fairness you would expect from a recreational vehicle club, one which is supposed to be all about FUN.

Here are some of the changes we seek.

Fair and open election procedures

Units through their Unit Presidents must be able to nominate candidates for International office prior to Jan 1st. Thereafter, they become nominees presented to the membership equally. The current procedures allowing Delegates to nominate from the floor does not work. Units have all cast their votes for the slate prior to the Delegates Meeting, units that nominate a from-the-floor candidate has no chance of their nominee being considered by the membership.

Members in failing societies deserve competition in their choices. They deserve to have candidates tell them what they will and will not do if elected, and it is the membership that is best capable at determining who will deliver on their promises.

The current system discloses nothing about what those on the slate will do when they are elected, and offers the membership no choice to an annual track of failure.

All nominees must appear free of charge in the Blue Beret, and all nominees must be presented equally to the membership to choose from.

Financial responsibility
No organization can survive posting continual annual fiscal losses. Raising dues only makes recruitment and retention even more difficult and we've been losing members for more than 30 years. Our current leadership and their system of self-elections provide the membership with no hopes of growth and no hopes of profitability going forward.

The fact our club is a not-for-profit organization demands that it be run with a balanced budget. The $120,000 budget category that reimburses international leaders for their travel and attendance at events all across North America must be eliminated from the budget, along with the lavish travel that these leaders have set for themselves.

Due to the huge deficit spending and annual losses exceeding $100,000 we must have the option to have an audit performed by an independent certified public accountant.

Any further dues increases must be voted upon by the membership.

Grievance procedures
Our current grievance procedures as stated in the Bylaws, need to be redrafted to conform with Robert’s Rules of Order Newly Revised. At the last IBT meeting numerous individual motions about the grievance policy were combined into one motion and then addressed in a closed door session without public discussion, debate or broadcast.

The expulsion of a past Metro NY Unit President Leo Garvey is troubling. After having 3 frivolous grievances filed against him, the outcome was decided without due process of our bylaws & rules. These grievance procedures must be open, fair and transparent.

The expulsion of Leo & Gail Garvey has achieved a very specific goal for our leadership.
Leo had declared himself a candidate for International Nominating Committee for the fourth year in a row and our leadership has now successfully removed that option from you and the rest of our membership.

Open meetings
Delegate meetings must have open sessions where the units can determine the future direction of the club.

Members, through their units, must be able to amend our Bylaws directly.

Votes by the IBT that change our bylaws must hold accountability – a role call is required for one and all.

An amendment has been proposed separating the power to create bylaw changes and the power to rule such changes are constitutional.

If these are the types of changes you would like to see occur, we believe working singularly from inside is not possible. We can either continue towards the fast approaching demise of the WBCCI or we can take action to save the club by commencing a Federal Court action. A Federal Judge will review the decisions of the WBCCI along with its Constitution and Bylaws.

If you think we can make a difference, then help us accomplish this now!
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