Thor Corp Having POSSIBLE INFLUENCE OVER WBCCI?

[rgesch]

As A Unit President I have just received an important notice from Jackson Center regarding the Motion Options on the Name Change. I will scan the entire notice and ost it for all to read at http://homepage.fcgnetworks.net/rgesch/motion.jpg

The part I found perplexing is as follows:

Con: 2. A logo and name licesnse agreement with Thor Corp appears to enable Thor to have the possibility of undesired influence or control over our Club.

Does anyone have the details or heard the story on this?

Robin

[balrgn]

Good info, thanks Robin!

[rgesch]

Well you hang on Peanut Lover! I'm going to be posting the entire Agreement. I'm no attorney but paragraph 2, 3, and 4 seems to suggest we might not have control of using the logo with the freedom we do now. i.e. printing T-shirts like for Region activities if Thor doesn't approve??? I also wonder what will become of our WBCCI Store items. Will Thor then be entitiled to a cut? Charge prices they see fit? I want the atorney's in the club to give feedback on this!

Robn

[silver 67]

I would think that Thor may be expressing their thoughts about not continuing to use Wally's name because neither he or any family members are owners of the company. Thor makes Airstreams and they would like any Airstream exclusive club to have the name Airstream in it.

It's the same reason that no young person knows who Mr. Kresge was. Kresge's was a "dime store" but since the 60s the company has been known as Kmart and now that Sears owns Kmart, the name will change again.(The trial stores will be opening in the KC area)

I know that the change will be hard for many of the older members,of which we have many in our unit. But there are many like me who were not raised on Airstreams and only recently found out who Wally was.

I want everyone to know that I own the best trailer made, instead of having to explain what WBCCI stands for. And then answer the question "Who??"

I normally don't like change, but sometimes it's a good thing.

[47WeeWind]

Our Denver, CO Unit 24 published the whole proposed License Agreement in our newsletter last month for all our Unit members to see; you can read it in our current newsletter. Go to our Unit website:

http://www.wbcci-denco.org/

then click on NEWSLETTERS and our March 2006 Newsletter will appear. Go to pages 6 and 6A for the complete proposed License Agreement. Read it and see what you think.

We will publish arguments for and against the name change in our April 2006 Newsletter. When that is available I'll post another link here.

[rgesch]

Hi Beth,

I like change myself however the club is about the people IN the trailer. I'm also a proud owner of 2 Airstreams. I just wonder what this name change is actually going to mean to the people.

I see a need to change some other things and if you've seem some of my posts I quote and will be quoting some of the memberships concerns about the club being for the officers with the dinners and parties and reception and cloths and I just wonder why those comments were ignored and the name change was first on the list. I "crunched" the numbers of the survey and guess what the Appeal of the activities and delegate dress code, and International reception where all right up there.

I just don't know what the name of the club is going to do for the campers in the Airstreams. It's just a name and I don't know why we are so anxious to spend 21,000 dollars on the clubs money on this issue. Seems like not a lot of return for more money. But we all like to spend our money differently. Some people probably think we are all nuts spending the money on these twinkies but we love them.

thanks for the feedback.

Robn

[markdoane]

Doesn't Thor already have the name AOA and AAOA (from 1989) already registered?

Wouldn't the WBCCI need to licence the name from Thor?

[myboyburt]

Originally Posted by silver 67

I know that the change will be hard for many of the older members,of which we have many in our unit. But there are many like me who were not raised on Airstreams and only recently found out who Wally was.

I want everyone to know that I own the best trailer made, instead of having to explain what WBCCI stands for. And then answer the question "Who??"

I normally don't like change, but sometimes it's a good thing.

I'm a "young" member of the WBCCI, have only owned an Airstream and been a club member for three years and I feel that changing the name of the club will cause it to lose membership and member goodwill. Sometimes change is a bad thing.

[rgesch]

Thanks Fred, I will keep my eye out for it.

Robn

[05ModPod]

Excellent!!! Thank you for sharing.

This by far has been the closest WBCCI has come to really informing their Members on this issue. Regardless of all our wonderful opinions for and against a name change. it all boils down to the Members rights - and how our votes have been applied in the past and how they will be applied in the future.

Phew...I was thinking that I was not going to get the March BB that everyone is referring to these days. Arrived Friday! This Friday just gone by.

I urge everyone to take the time to read and digest the information - provided in the Blue Beret - written by R.B.Bernd, Chairman Name Selection Committee.

Just a few observations I picked up on....

Ask yourselves who are the people R.B. is refering too - in the many general statements made throughout his report - how many members does it take to represent our membership population responsibly?

Item j. Under Facts Bearing on the Problem:
So all you die hards out there - take the psyc test - quickly glance at the proposed new Logo - and ask yourself - what do I see.......Does the old "Airstream Service" poster come to mind - the ones that are made of cardboard and appear on E-Bay for big bucks???? (Sorry but how does the new name or logo clearly differentiate us from the Airstream Company?

Point #4 of R.B. Bernds report - states that "Airstream RV Association" has been part of the letterhead for years. Not that I would push this name - but rather the use of "Airstream" is the point I am making here...Hey folks that is FREE of legalities - and does not cost us a penny - and no headaches - something a lot of units are doing anyway - we use the WBCCI letters - but splash Airstream in everything else we print, pass on, discuss and of course pull behind us - so I ask why the need for change to get the word Airstream when we all have been using it anyway and pulling it anyway. Why even the WBCCI Decal sits above a big word on the Trailer - "Airstream" well at least the last I looked on both old and new trailers.

"Assumption" - what a faux paux - my goodness whose assumption. And what is that rule in life - NEVER assume.......get the facts jack....

I'm not going to go further into that report - because well there is not enough time in the day to say how backwards this process has been - and how miss-guided the delegates meeting of last year was. (please note that this statement is not meant with bad intent - it just seems that the further they go the more confussing their direction has been) - Until this latest information sent to the Unit Presidents.

The information that was included here addresses two very important points...

Cost "estimates" a point that personally as a member I have been patiently waiting for - we just had a $10.00 member fee increase last year - and quite frankly anyone who is prepared to vote on a name change - without even seeing DETAILED "estimates" is well just not responsible (or loaded ).

I might draw to your attention another key factor in how "interpretation has been (I would like to hope - inadvertently)"assumed". The Unit may vote to prorate these 15 votes to all the unit members"

This statement although extremely important for go-around two!! would seem - somewhat of a contradiction to what happened at the delegates meeting last June - where "someone or group" took the Units right to vote for "proprating their unit members vote of last year " and applied it without unit permission to come up with this Vote count IBT is using ["members voted by a large margin (5634 to 1498) to insert the name Airstream in the name of the club[/B] excertp from pg6 March 06 BB. Our unit has a lot of members - and my vote was counted as a yes when if cast it would have been a no - I just wonder how our delegate was requested to prorate - when there does not seem to be a motion from unit meeting to tell the delegate to prorate - nor a motion at the delgates meeting to accept all delegate votes as a prorated vote. (Prorated votes are not accurate -and take away the delgates voice of one vote per delegate - so bigger units are given more power over smaller units - this is not a democracy) Either vote individually or vote by delegate....

Good luck everyone - hope above all everyone has a great time at their Rally where you cast your vote (or for those whose Unit Constitution allows - don't forget to cast your vote by mail).

Remember - the above is only my own take on this ordeal - one that I am very serious about - and yet I have been in this club only 2 years. And for those people who have asked me what WBCCI stands for - I just simply say WB is the founder - Caravan is an english term for Caravans Which ='sTrailers (as only us NorthAmericans call a "Camper" a Travel Trailer - to the rest of the world they are known as "Caravans") Club and International are self explanitory. And if that is too hard - just say WBCCI is Galic for Our Club of Airstream Enthusiasts....

Sorry I just can not see why we have spent so much valuable time over this name change when there are so many other more important things to address in this Club.

Thanks for your patience in listening to my dribble

See you out there......

[66Overlander]

Originally Posted by rgesch

As A Unit President I have just received an important notice from Jackson Center regarding the Motion Options on the Name Change. I will scan the entire notice and ost it for all to read at http://homepage.fcgnetworks.net/rgesch/motion.jpg

The part I found perplexing is as follows:

Con: 2. A logo and name licesnse agreement with Thor Corp appears to enable Thor to have the possibility of undesired influence or control over our Club.

Does anyone have the details or heard the story on this?

Robin

By received from Jackson Center do you mean you received this from WBCCI Headquarters? (I assume that Airstream didn't send it to you, correct?).

Combining this information with the Licensing Agreement mentioned by Fred Coldwell (which appears to have been enacted ahead of time, assuming AOAI would be approved) I see a lot to be concerned about.

One of the most disconcerting things I see is giving the Delegates the opportunity to Vote "Modify the Recommended Name" and negotiate a new name amongst themselves without actual membership input or influence. Their "Pro" agrument for this Delegate voting option makes no sense. It states that this would "reflect the opinions and desires of all Voting Club Members" while the "Con" agruement is exactly the opposite that "A decision needs to be made by the Delegate without conference with their Unit members". If they can't confer with their members, how can the they vote in manner that relects the opinions and desires of their members. We cannot ahead of time prepare them for all possible modified names proposals that could come up for discussion at the meeting. Perhaps the option to vote MODIFY is intended as a way to break up the FAIL vote enough that the PASS vote will win. We need to instruct all of our delegates to not get sucked into the "modify" discussion - Tell them to "Just Vote NO".!

Also of concern is that apparently the units have the ability to nullify an individual members vote by voting their unit's votes as a block - all PASS, all FAIL, or all MODIFY. 49% of a units members could vote the oposite position and then have those votes not counted at all when their Delegate votes for "them" at International. This is just wrong! Talk to your Delegate and tell they you want to make sure your vote is counted by having them vote in proportion to the ratio reflected in the Unit Vote. Ask them to take this vote via mailed ballots so that all members have the opportunity to vote. In reality the club Contitution and Bylaws should be changed to require votes to be handles this way.

And finally of concern (perhaps the most concern) is that apparently thru the licensing agreement, a "PASS" vote is a vote to lessen club member control of the Club and provide at least an opportunity for Thor to exert undesired influence on the Club. I have nothing against Airstream or Thor - I'm glad they are making a fine product. But we all joined an independent club when we joined WBCCI. We should have no desire to give up some of this independence to any corporate business entity.

[Stefrobrts]

Originally Posted by 66Overlander

Also of concern is that apparently the units have the ability to nullify an individual members vote by voting their unit's votes as a block - all PASS, all FAIL, or all MODIFY. 49% of a units members could vote the oposite position and then have those votes not counted at all when their Delegate votes for "them" at International. This is just wrong!

Sounds just like the electoral college to me! What's the matter, don't you like the way the USA is run?

But seriously, I'd rather spend $21k on free memberships for new members to build the club back up. Changing the name of something that will die out in a few years if they don't make some serious changes to the way things are done is just a waste. At least the club should be recovering from the slump, meeting the needs of new members and GROWING, and then they can talk about spending wads of cash on changing the name.

Or they could just reduce the national club dues if they have that much money laying around, since one of the number one issues among new members seems to be if the national club dues are worth what they get back out of the club. Lowering the dues might be a good place to start to bring in new members.

Wasting it on a name change probably is not.

[Janet H]

I would love to see a calculation of the cost of a name change - not just the cash cost - but the volunteer hours as well...

How many of you edit newsletters or write websites for WBCCI units? I just put up a new site for the Oregon unit - I am NOT looking forward to redesigning the site template because the name and logo change....

BTW - Kudos to the AS Forums for housing the site on their servers!

[wheel interested]

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

...Or they could just reduce the national club dues if they have that much money laying around, since one of the number one issues among new members seems to be if the national club dues are worth what they get back out of the club. Lowering the dues might be a good place to start to bring in new members.

Wasting it on a name change probably is not.

That's what I was thinking too. Instead of raising the dues to cover a name change to lure new members, why not cut spending and lower the dues and make it more affordable and attractive for new members.

[66Overlander]

Originally Posted by Janet

I would love to see a calculation of the cost of a name change - not just the cash cost - but the volunteer hours as well...

How many of you edit newsletters or write websites for WBCCI units? I just put up a new site for the Oregon unit - I am NOT looking forward to redesigning the site template because the name and logo change....

BTW - Kudos to the AS Forums for housing the site on their servers!

I semi-volunteered to create a Region 4 web site late last year, but the possibility of the club name changing to AOAI sapped all energy from me so I never followed up on it. And yet I strongly feel that one of the things WBCCI needs is a stronger, more up to date (in both terms of design and available information) web presence. Each Region, if not each Unit, should have a good web site. Luckily in my case, the Region 4 President just started a web site (http://www.region4wbcci.com/), so we've finally got the ball moving here.

Still, I know creating web sites is not easy business. I feel for those of you that would be faced with making these changes. I too wonder if the Name Change Committee considered these types of impacts that may not be measured in dollars, but instead are measured in perhaps hundreds volunteer hours?

[azflycaster]

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

But seriously, I'd rather spend $21k on free memberships for new members to build the club back up.

I have been watching this and I don't understand the $21K number. In the motion posted by rgesch it mentions $21,300 for the club. It also mentions $452 per unit. 144 units x $452 = $65,088. If the regions cost the same as a unit that would be another $5424. The total looks like $91,812 to me.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by rgesch

The part I found perplexing is as follows:
Con: 2. A logo and name licesnse agreement with Thor Corp appears to enable Thor to have the possibility of undesired influence or control over our Club.Robin

hi robin.....

thanks for posting this and for your tireless volunteer work as an officer...

in your post, are you refering to the usage agreement as published in the denver unit news letter?....

i just read it a couple of times.....and don't see any red flags....and only a minimum of protection for thor/airstream regarding their property...the name airstream, images and so on...

basically it says the wb club must use the name (a/s) and trademark in a way that isn't bad for the company.....

and that the way the wb has used it's own name and trademark over these last 50 years.....is the barometer of good usage....

and that from time to time the company may request samples in use to monitor this.....

that is about the loosest, easiest, nonrestrictive guideline, for this sort of thing, i've ever seen....really

so basically if the club formerly known as the wbcci uses the word airstream in the club name and on letterhead, tee shirts, flags, napkins....and so on...

and if done, just the way they have always done this.....it's ok.

since they've never printed wb condoms, or required officers to get a wb tatoo on their shinny sides......
they can't start doing that now with the word airstream in the club.....

(note members can still get tatoos of anything they want, anywhere)......

the 'name use agreement' looks pretty benign........

so where does your 'con 2' noted above come from?....
has someone written up some pros/cons and distributed them?
based on who's view of pro/con?
based on who's reading of the agreement document?

i don't see anything in this agreement that.....

"enable Thor to have the possibility of undesired influence or control over our Club"

this sounds like the product of someone trying to influence votes.....

clearly some don't like the name offering....
and others do......
and still others are open to change, just not aoai.....
and still others want no change, no way, no how......

it is often suggested that the company (t/t, a/s) has some secret motive and a desire to grab this club, control it and run it down fast........

why would they want to hurt the club? where is the proof, what is the proof?

i have not seen one example of thor/airstream doing anything negative regarding the wbcci.........ever.......have you?

can anyone give us any examples of the company hurting the club....ever?

the truth is the club hurts the club, when viewed by folks who want the club to be different than it is...

solving the conundrum of changing the club to benefit more folks who currently are not in the club or aren't active in the club or might join if......well that is a hugh challenge.

every thing i've seen over 25+ years of airsteam ownership, starting at the tender age of 25.....
suggests the company has always helped the club,
stayed out of the way unless asked and
ultimately lent a hand....when financial problems have hit the wbcci.

i generally like a little anarchy or activist movement....

but there isn't any big corporate evil in this story to attack.....
unless you consider the name change committe as somehow sinister....

cheers
2air'

[Janet H]

What do you suppose would happen if the name change happened and then - down the road... Thor sells Airstream - or there is a hostile take over or ....

The Aistream brand expands to include white box trailers or some other kind of trailer that tube owners just don't like?

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by Janet

What do you suppose would happen if .....The Aistream brand expands to include white box trailers or some other kind of trailer that tube owners just don't like?

hi janet.....

ya mean like 'white loaf trailers' or mohos, or rivetless tubes?....the wbcci has already demonstrated the narrowminded ness to exclude airtream products......and only have years, decline in membership, grasping for help and some friendly suggestions from dealers, corp and so on.........

were class b, argosy, round mohos, flat mohos and so on allowed to join.....

and now hopefully base camps and base camp 5th wheels...

did letting these inferior and impure rvs into the club hurt? hardly i think....

if a/s decides to slap an a/s label or something made by some other thor company......
it would be fine with me if those owners joined......
but since the brands under thor don't share much of anything, and compete financially against each other......
it' is unlikely airstream would want a moho with just the label.....
where would they go for warranty, repairs and such....

thor brands don't operate in anyway like gm brands....there is no comparison, by any business measure or financial or construction issue...

as for what my happen with new owners for a/s.......who knows?....
airstream has changed hands several times over the years.....
at what ownership stage was the wbcci hurt my any new owner?

really the club isn't that big an issue for the company imo....
except from a 'good will' perspective.

and it has always seemed to me that the company has supported the club....
mt whatever way the club has asked for support...

now i agree completely with those that say the clubs infrastructure/organization and legislative style is problematic.....it does operate a lot like the usa...it is a representative democracy...not a pure one and votes are like the electorial college....

and there is corruption, egos and old farts in charge.....

got anything better?

cheers
2air'

[Stefrobrts]

I think the difference is that right now the wbcci doesn't have to answer to thor (or anyone) at all, and in the future they are putting themselves in a position where they will. Why would they do that, and spend a lot of money doing it, when what they've got now works fine without any hoops to jump through? How could it be better to hand over more control to an outside entity. Airstream reps have said in the past that the wbcci means nothing to them, they're not the demographic they're going for, they don't promote AS in the way they want to be promoted (which I found pretty offensive as a devoted vintage owner), does that sound like someone you want to be running to for approval of new ideas? I don't think so.