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85MH325 · 03-09-2006, 06:00 PM

And I'm posting as a member as well...

Frankly, I'm sick to death of this issue. I allowed my WBCCI membership to lapse last year after belonging for six or seven consecutive years. I've read all the hoopla about a name change... and it just doesn't make any difference one way or the other.

At the 2000 International, I met the sole surviving charter member of WBCCI and had a wonderful time chatting with him. It was during that conversation that I realized that the club was about CARAVANNING with Airstreams. It was not formed to be a "marque" club. It has never been about anything more than folks with Airstreams getting together and travelling together. Enjoying the sights while on the road with other Airstream owners. It was not, is not currently, and the plans have never been for it to be a "marque" club with Saturday afternoon get-togethers and bar-b-ques where the kids run around the park and play frisbee... although that is part of what has been done over the years. It's about travel. Caravanning in Airstreams.

All of the intra-clubs cater to the varied interests of CARAVANNERS. They were never intended to be do-all end-all organizations in and of themselves.

That conversation with the sole surviving charter member of WBCCI was also when I discovered that I wasn't a caravanner at this stage in my life. I just don't have the time, as many of us find ourselves right now. No organization can be all things to all people. To expect it to be so is going to disappoint someBODY. Once I figured out that I wasn't up for caravanning, and that the club was ABOUT caravanning, I had a much better understanding of why things are the way they are.

So... It matters little what the organization is called. What matters is what the membership sees as the future of the organization. For fifty years WBCCI has been organizing caravans. Perhaps if a little less time and precious energy were spent on frivolous concerns like the name, and more time and energy figuring out and then implementing what the new focus (if caravanning is no longer what the Wally Byam Caravan Club International does) should be...

In any event, it is not going to be resolved here. My opinion for all of you predisposed to beating your chests and screaming for all to hear is to tell take it to your club and fight your battles there if you feel it's that important. These Forums aren't the WBCCI.

Roger

**Action** · 03-09-2006, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Thank you also for reporting that my contributions to this forum have no value - mostly because it is different from yours. As a moderator and contributer to these forums, you are a person of authority on this list. Too bad that you, in that capacity, take it upon yourself to assign value to peoples posts on this list. It does remind me of the old guard attitude that we have seen so much of since we joined - "I have seniority and you don't" kind of thing. Do you know what I mean? No?

It's not that your contributions do not count, it's that you and a couple of others have brought up your opinion repeatedly that it is now in the arena of a rant! Because the Airstream Forums is NOT the venue for making changes to the WBCCI.

And I think if you wanted to know, most of the mod/admin (volunteer staff) probably has the same opinion as yours. It's just we don't feel the need to have multiple threads that are many pages in length when the result will be the same as putting your finger in a glass of water and then pulling it out. Change can only happen at WBCCI. And the Airstream Forum is not affiliated with the WBCCI.

With regard to the old guard comment. You are making that stuff up in your head. And it's OK if you do. The only question I would ask is,
Does that work for you?
Is it getting you what you want?

If the answer is yes, I would suggest carry on.
If no, then I would suggest making a change.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

PS. Any attacks on the Mods/Admin/Owner does not work for us and we will make changes in that event.

Buttercup · 03-09-2006, 06:31 PM

I am impressed at the coordinated effort here by the moderators on this post (and my karma). I should have seen this coming.

And as for old guard - if the shoe fits... The forums are exactly the place for a change to WBCCI. If not where then? Blue Beret? An ad in a magazine somewhere? Airstream.com forums? Nope, this is the place. Afterall, it is an open forum, isn't it?

No mods have been attacked but you all do have the power to end any discussion if you feel you are being attacked. Question is then who mods the mods? I find stefroberts comments on our (my wife and I) involvement inflamatory, but what to do? Report it to her? O.K... to whom?

Anyway, now that this thread has drifted so far off course, why is it still up? Why hasn't been moderated?

**Action** · 03-09-2006, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buttercup

... The forums are exactly the place for a change to WBCCI. If not where then?

Afterall, it is an open forum, isn't it?

Your 2nd Q.

It's not exactly an open Forum. Anyone that can not play by the rules that they agreed to when they signed in will not be allowed to continue.

Your 1st Q

And this is not the place to make changes to the WBCCI. Talk about it. Discuss it. Swap ideas about it. Rant about it. But based on results*, this is not the WBCCI and the WBCCI probably doesn't care about the vast majority of forum users that are not members of the WBCCI. Changes to the WBCCI can only occur at the WBCCI. The WBCCI does not use any data here. They don't care about any of the polls here and my unit doesn't even play here. So accept it or not, ranting about a name change to the WBCCI here will not make any difference there.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

*Results! An awesome unit of measure. Often harsh. Always fair.

InsideOut · 03-09-2006, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buttercup

I am impressed at the coordinated effort here by the moderators on this post (and my karma). I should have seen this coming.
<snip>
Anyway, now that this thread has drifted so far off course, why is it still up? Why hasn't been moderated?

Karma is intended for members to voice opinions, positive AND negative. "Approve" (agree) or "Diasapprove" (disagree)...while most members only dole out postitive, some do occaisionaly voice disagreement too. That's how it works ~ Karma from a mod is no different than from any other member. It's not a warning, it's just a voicing of disagreement. As far as a "coordinated effort" of the moderators' posts, you are sorely mistaken. This thread is being left to stand because, while it has become heated, it does not violate the policies of the forum...

Unfortunately, it has strayed off course and taken the brunt of a lot of pent up sentiment...which really is a shame because it started off positive with a legitimate question & mostly civil dialog.

How about getting it back on track?

Shari

Uberlanders · 03-09-2006, 07:06 PM

Wow! I'm at school and off-line for a few hours and everything goes to wonky!

Knowing Steph, I know she must be pretty frustrated to have actually posted such a strong opinion. I respect her opinion, but I respect Buttercup as well. I know how hard both Buttercup and Steph have been working with their units. It is obvious to anyone who has ready their rally posts or looked at their web sites.

Its too bad...you both are working toward the same things, but in two different ways. Neither of you are "old guard", and you both love what you have found in your local units.

Lets work toward creating "a plan" rather than tearing each other down. I think that is what Steph was trying to get at.

Kathleen

85MH325 · 03-09-2006, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buttercup

I am impressed at the coordinated effort here by the moderators on this post (and my karma). I should have seen this coming.

And as for old guard - if the shoe fits... The forums are exactly the place for a change to WBCCI. If not where then? Blue Beret? An ad in a magazine somewhere? Airstream.com forums? Nope, this is the place. Afterall, it is an open forum, isn't it?

No mods have been attacked but you all do have the power to end any discussion if you feel you are being attacked. Question is then who mods the mods? I find stefroberts comments on our (my wife and I) involvement inflamatory, but what to do? Report it to her? O.K... to whom?

Anyway, now that this thread has drifted so far off course, why is it still up? Why hasn't been moderated?

Your "coordinated effort" on the part of the moderators is nothing more than a conspiracy theory on your part. I asked the other mods a month ago if it was time to shut the WBCCI threads down, and it was the consensus of the other mods to leave the subject alone. While I don't feel the need to justify any of the actions of the moderators, I will tell you that the responses on this thread are merely us as members responding.

Further, the moderators deal with each other. I've had posts pulled, appropriately, by other moderators. The moderators as a group are incredibly tolerant of members' opinions and unless a post is in really poor taste or someone is attacked (violation of the "play nice" rules), they stand.

And, this is NOT the place to change the WBCCI. Other than having members here who are members of WBCCI as well, there is no other affilliation. Your website, or an ad in the Blue Beret, or a mass mailing to WBCCI members all seem to be the ideal places to engineer advertising for such a change if you think it appropriate.

Last, I don't believe this thread has strayed off the subject much at all, but I'll be happy to close it if that's what you want.

Roger

wheel interested · 03-09-2006, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Action

And this is not the place to make changes to the WBCCI. Talk about it. Discuss it. Swap ideas about it. Rant about it. But based on results*, this is not the WBCCI and the WBCCI probably doesn't care about the vast majority of forum users that are not members of the WBCCI. Changes to the WBCCI can only occur at the WBCCI. The WBCCI does not use any data here. They don't care about any of the polls here and my unit doesn't even play here. So accept it or not, ranting about a name change to the WBCCI here will not make any difference there.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

*Results! An awesome unit of measure. Often harsh. Always fair.

I think the intention in so very many threads about WBCCI including those dating back years in time, is to share information, ideas and opinions with each other. This forum is a gathering place for Airstreamers. There are quite a number of forum members that have geniune interest in this as well as the polls. We have at least two recent polls on the WBCCI name change started by current moderators, Stephanie Roberts and Janet. Are you fashioning your criticism against the subject, or against the individual here?

InsideOut · 03-09-2006, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InsideOut

Karma is intended for members to voice opinions, positive AND negative. "Approve" (agree) or "Diasapprove" (disagree)...while most members only dole out postitive, some do occaisionaly voice disagreement too. That's how it works ~

BTW, I forgot to mention that "positive" karma has twice the value of "negative" karma. The value of a member's karma is defined here, post #2.

Shari

2airishuman · 03-09-2006, 07:57 PM

hi folks......

wow i sure agree with what the mods are saying here....thank you.

bcup....seems that whenever someone disagrees with you they are part of the conspiracy or have a vested interest in the name change.....and here on the forums neither of those things are true....

and the mention of negative karma is laughable......a guess it does go around bud....i only send love....

many of the wb delegates who have posted on the issue only do so rarely...because they get less than civil replies....and usually not the sort of thing normal people would say face to face....

having a thick skin is key to forum survival...and these folks just don't care....and move on.....so it's our loss from their future contributions.....

sure it's hard to get info on an issue that predates joining or for other reasons isn't discussed much...till now.....but you assume this issue is a huge deal and a big controversy....and i honestly don't think it is......and frankly if lots of folks joined the wb days before the big vote.....can they say "stop, stop.....we need time to think"

as we all try to remember.......it's just camping.......and as noted already, the wbcci has always been about travel and the trip....not the club name.

sure lots of airstream folks hang here but most seem not to enjoy these wb name issue threads.......

and the wb has a web site.......i've read only a very few posts there pro or con.....would it not make sense to take the fight there? or at least try there?

in the spirit of trying to help you and 65gt and who ever else hopes to turn this vote a round......
here is a suggestion......
offered sincerely.....

1. compose a letter with the position you'd like to promote....maybe you AND gt each do this...
2. get out the wb directory and highlight 10 or 20 or 30 members
3. address envelopes to these members......this is less than 20$ out of your pockets...
4. include with the letters a plea that if they agree with your position.....you need them to copy and mail the letter to 10 more members.......and so on...

now i realize this looks like a chain letter and it is sort of.....but if only HALF of the folks you post to AGREE with your position.....and promote the effort to block the vote/name/whatever......

you will have a much larger effective support group for the issue.....and will be doing something to actually affect your issue......of course if very few members care or are against the name change......well.....so be it. you need to communicate with the folks that will cast votes......and in a volume that isn't reading this......

now back to your regular programing....

cheers
2air'

Buttercup · 03-09-2006, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Action

And this is not the place to make changes to the WBCCI. Talk about it. Discuss it. Swap ideas about it. Rant about it. But based on results*, this is not the WBCCI and the WBCCI probably doesn't care about the vast majority of forum users that are not members of the WBCCI. Changes to the WBCCI can only occur at the WBCCI. The WBCCI does not use any data here. They don't care about any of the polls here and my unit doesn't even play here. So accept it or not, ranting about a name change to the WBCCI here will not make any difference there.

Oh, I misunderstood - I thought that was the impetus for change. My mistake. You are right - WBCCI can't be changed.

And thus - through these forums no trailer can be repaired, no rally can be held, no idea expanded.

**Action** · 03-09-2006, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel interested

I think the intention in so very many threads about WBCCI including those dating back years in time, is to share information, ideas and opinions with each other. This forum is a gathering place for Airstreamers. There are quite a number of forum members that have geniune interest in this as well as the polls. We have at least two recent polls on the WBCCI name change started by current moderators, Stephanie Roberts and Janet. Are you fashioning your criticism against the subject, or against the individual here?

I am all for an exchange of ideas. I am all for polls and opinions.

When it has been stated multiple times by same people, I define that as pot stirring looking for a reaction. Not any specific reaction just a reaction. There is little point in it. It does nothing to propel the cause it just gets people excited. And at this point it may be getting people excited not to join the WBBCI. Or leave this forum or just lurk because they don't want to be involved with that kind of excitement. They just want to go camping with a neat RV.

So to answer the Q. I am not criticising, complaining or condeming I just want to point out that real change is not gonna happen here. This is not the WBCCI. (If someone were passionate about doing something) Cause a great idea just gets lonely with out ACTION! And at this time I believe all points have been made at this place called the Airstream Forums. To restate it or to discuss it more is silly. (That is my personal opinion) To really make change from the direction that the WBCCI is going, someone actually has to get off their 'puter and get into the WBCCI. This is my suggestion. It's that old saying "Talk is cheap"

And if one doesn't want the change and wants to rant about it - rock on! Just don't expect anything to change to your view point.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

And for what it's worth, I would rather not see the name change. I am just not that passionate about it. I'd rather spend my energy travelling. Let the others play name games.

Buttercup · 03-09-2006, 09:39 PM

Quote:

and the wb has a web site.......i've read only a very few posts there pro or con.....would it not make sense to take the fight there? or at least try there?

Well this site is also owned by THOR now so this is actually the perfect place. [quote]From NETWORK SOLUTIONS web site, domain name info:
airstreamforums.com

Registrant:
Thor Tech, Inc.
419 W. Pike St.
Jackson Center, OH 45334-0629
US,/quote]

Quote:

in the spirit of trying to help you and 65gt and who ever else hopes to turn this vote a round......
here is a suggestion......
offered sincerely.....
1. compose a letter with the position you'd like to promote....maybe you AND gt each do this...
2. get out the wb directory and highlight 10 or 20 or 30 members
3. address envelopes to these members......this is less than 20$ out of your pockets...
4. include with the letters a plea that if they agree with your position.....you need them to copy and mail the letter to 10 more members.......and so on...

Thanks for the advice. But based on my experience in the advertizing and marketing industry, that will not work for this situation. And frankly, based on your past posts to not only myself and others who do not support the name change - I seriously doubt that this advice is offered in the spirit of helping.

People are still questioning this name change and if they are met with resstance when the do - they will run away from the issue so I want to be sure that anybody who questions are not treated like lemmings and forced off the clif. There is another choice and voting NO is the more reasonable choice to make on this issue.

**Action** · 03-09-2006, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Oh, I misunderstood - I thought that was the impetus for change. My mistake. You are right - WBCCI can't be changed.

And thus - through these forums no trailer can be repaired, no rally can be held, no idea expanded.

You know Buttercup, I will defend your privilage to express your opinion on the forum as long as you stay within the rules. No matter how wrong I believe your statements to be.

It is also my belief that anything is possible. However the sad truth to the matter is nothing is accomplished unless someone does something.

Trailers get repaired because some one takes action
Rallys get held because some one takes action

So my only Q for you is when are you going to do something that makes a difference?
When is your passion going to move you to follow through with your opinions on the name change?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

Cedars · 03-09-2006, 09:47 PM

Questions: What was the ORIGINAL, complete motion, reguarding the name change? How is that being honored?
Observation: Looks like a straight 'up or down' ballot.... vote yes this way, vote no. Simple. That's it.
They are not asking your opinion here, they are calling for a specific vote!
Don't like it? Vote no and make them go back to drawing board.
So far, in all of this, I have seen nothing that will cause me to join and part with my money. I cannot see the value, and don't need to be involved in a non issue for me.
Direct your delegates how you or your unit wants the vote cast, and stick with it.
Looks like at this point the only thing you can do is vote it down and begin anew if you really feel that need.
Lots of strang and durm being wated here, folks.

Elizabeth in Iowa

**Janet H** · 03-09-2006, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Well this site is also owned by THOR now so this is actually the perfect place......

Just to clear this up.. While Thor has rights to the domain name they do not own this site or the content contained here. This site is privately owned, by one individual. The site could be migrated to a new URL, new servers, heck - even sold to a new owner... but Thor does not control, govern or otherwise have input here.

Last year they sent out nasty-grams to many businesses using the word Airstream in their titles. Some businesses changed their names e.g. Airstream Dreams became Vintage trailer supply. Others, like this one, wishing to keep it's name chose different paths.

2airishuman · 03-09-2006, 10:14 PM

hi b cup......so i guess you're talking to me again? nice....

my point about the wb delagate and committee folks posting here is that they aren't high volume web forum types...and some of the replys (to them) that others of us would just deflect (thick skinned) may not work well directed toward them....i didn't post that i or anyone else here....was nice always.....

also i didn't give you advice.....
i offered a suggestion (for 65gt also) on how to reach wb members and get the ball rolling to turn off the name change....
my suggestion is just an idea......
and i'm fine if you think it isn't a useful approach or you think my motives aren't sincere....
how would you like to reach wb membership and influence their views with info....THEY AIN'T HERE BRO'

now about that issue of who owns the forums and by implication.....that thor/airstream inc is pulling strings....

i had occasion to look some things up myself of this.....
and reached the same conclusion as you......
it was explained to me (and i could be stating this incorrectly) that thor now owns the 'airstreamforums' name and one of the ip addresses...but that andyr still actually owns the forum content....

also you may find it useful (or not) to know that there used to be two publications......
the bb and the caravaner...
the first was wb property and the latter thor/airstreams....
and each was written/published and mailed separately by wb or thor......

in 92' when membership issues were a big concern (like now).... the 2 combined.......

wb agreed to write/format/publish the content of the combined publication....

and thor/airstream agreed to PAY for the publication and mailing....

this combined bb/caravaner was inked at 80,000 copies and mailed to 60,000 households.....a considerable expense for thor/air and done in an attempt to help the wbcci keep, gain and grow....

so i don't think thor/air has any sinister agenda here....a healthy club is good for them too....my understanding is that they only want the the club clearly distinguished from the company....

as for a splinter/new club.......
FMCA used to have an airstream subgroup....is it still active.....

does anyone know?

cheers
2air'

Buttercup · 03-09-2006, 10:52 PM

Wait! I am a B cup. But I figure with a little exercise, less drinking, I could get that down to AA

.

Tim

**Janet H** · 03-09-2006, 11:34 PM

Moderator hat on:

Dial it down! We all have opinions but several recent posts are on the edge of violating the "Be nice" policy. It is not our intent to censor but when posts get personal the moderation team will get busy. Not fun for us - and not good for exchange of ideas, but sometimes necessary.

If you are not sure what you are posting is acceptable - don't post! If you think you're pushing the envelope - you probably are. Just don't go there.

Fair warning...

Moderator hat off.

**Stefrobrts** · 03-09-2006, 11:58 PM

Let me say this as simply as possible. I am tired of hearing the same stuff over and over (I know, I shouldn't click on these threads). I think this direction is destructive, not constructive. I think you are doing more damage to the club than you are helping.

What you (and I refer to both Buttercup and 65GT as the people who keep these threads going) ARE doing is influencing people who might otherwise join to stay away, because you imply the WBCCI board is corrupt and in some sort of cahoots with the evil entity Thor (which you say even owns this forum) and none of which is true. I believe you have made these conspiracy theorys up with no evidence to back them up.

Those people who chose to stay away because of this one little topic will never know how much fun a good local unit is and how irrelevant the whole name change issue is in relation to what your local experience will be.

And that's what ticks me off. And I apologize if I mixed up Buttercup and 65GTs experience, or which of you used the A**stream name, or if I offended you personally. I think we have all been cut plenty of slack in our impassioned responses to these issues, so I hope you would do the same for me.

And BTW, yes, you can report me, and the other mods can edit my posts and give me the smackdown, just like anyone else. And I'll take it, because I stand behind what I said.