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Old 09-12-2009, 12:28 AM   #81
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Everybody,

Thanks for the show of support over the last few weeks. The grievances against Kimber and I have been dismissed and the issue closed.

In the letter we received, the following statement was included:
Quote:
The case appears to be a conflict between potential website vendors /webmasters: Mr.Gibson for the new WBCCI forum and Mr. Kendziorski, Vintage Webmaster ,with each of them interested in being the Webmaster for the new WBCCI Forum.
I would like to state publicly and for the record that I have had no interest in being the webmaster for the new forums. Rather, What I have wanted to to show that the current situation of hosting the new forums is not in the best interest of the WBCCI, in fact it is a violation of the 501(c)3 the WBCCI operates under. That is a separate issue being worked on now as we speak.

What I wanted to do is give the WBCCI and its membership an option to having a commercial used Airstream trailer dealer host the new forums. I wanted an option for the membership to the $29 ad sales and a site that is peppered with syndicated ads and listings for trailers from people who aren't even members of WBCCI. Members of the WBCCI shouldn't be forced to pay a fee to another member just to list their personal trailer for sale - that is just wrong.

What I wanted to offer WBCCI is a better solution. For that effort I was faced with a grievance. The offer I was making was a domain name - wbcciforums.org, server space, software, an archive of the old forums plus the infrastructure to run and manage those forums - it was never my desire to be the webmaster but rather hand these gifts over to the WBCCI without compensation or reward of any sort. All WBCCI had to do was take ownership of that domain name and infrastructure and they would have had a forums free of ads and the need to pay a fee just to list a trailer for sale.

WBCCI sent me a cease and desist order for putting that domain name together and setting up a forums as a demo that it could be done for free. I complied with that order and shut down the site without question. That is why it is no longer in service. It is not a victory for others as they might feel, but just complying with the wishes of WBCCI.

The grievance against my wife and I have been dismissed, but I will not just dismiss the notion that the members of WBCCI have a better option, one which does not allow a single member to profit at the expense of the WBCCI and its members through the use of banner ads and pay for listing services that violate the WBCCI non-profit status.

Grievances can be filed for true matters of personal conflict but they can also be used as a form of intimidation. I believe the grievance against my wife and I was a form of intimidation. Especially the grievance against my wife. She has been a most positive contributer to the WBCCI and the VAC. She did nothing in this matter except put her name on a letter. That is not the only form of intimidation I feel my wife and I have received since this issue began. We have received email messages from people hiding behind Latvian proxy servers to conceal their true identity (I am happy to provide evidence of this for anybody who is interested in seeing - PM me. ). In these messages is the foulest of language and threats over this issue. We do not deserve that but I am guessing that someone is protecting their best interests in sending nasty email messages.

My point is that people who use intimidation as a means of dealing with a situation are hiding behind fear. I have nothing to hide and my offer was made without strings or compensation of any sort. It was made with the best interest of WBCCI in mind, not my own personal benefit or compensation. A truly gift free to WBCCI and its members. One which does not apply a surcharge to the membership for the service.

What will happen with the new forums over time remains to be seen. It seems to languish with mostly the moderators and the as yet to be identified "Cortez" as the main posters to the site.

For me, Airforums and the SaveWally site will always be an open venue to the censorship, Pleasantville moderation and novella like "Terms of Service" that benefit one single vendor (the one actually providing the forums) over any other. I'll take Airforums over the the other forums as long as people are hiding behind identities and moderating right out of existence any post with a contradictory opinion.
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Old 09-12-2009, 04:12 AM   #82
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Good news!

Not so good for Leo!

"The Ethics and Grievance Committee in reviewing the Grievance brought by Gregory Gibson, on June 24, 2009 find Mr. G arvey guilty of violating the WBCCI Code of Ethics as outlined
above and recommend probation for two years (WBCCI Blue Book, Bylaws, Section 2G,
page 12). If an additional violation of the Code of Ethics occurs during this time period
(with or without a grievance being filed) Mr
. Garvey warrants suspension or expulsion from
WBCCI membership.
The Executive Committee, meeting in a special session on August 17,2009, followed Blue
Book Article V, Disciplinary Procedures, Section 2, By-Laws, H.: "The Executive
Committee promptly shall review the findings and the recommendations of the Ethics and
Grievance Committee, and by resolution, shall affirm, overrule or modify the said
recommendations."
The Executive Committee by called vote concurred with the Ethics and
Grievance Committee's recommendations with the exception that the probation period be
reduced to one year from receipt of this letter. Therefore, this grievance is hereby closed
unless further violations occur as described in the recommendations paragraph above.

Tom Collier
WBCCI International President (2009-2010)
"

They apparently followed Blue book Article V rather than Roberts Rules. in so doing did the EGC fail to grant Leo a 'hearing' which according to RRONR says "for actions that take place outside of an official meeting is a trial in front of the membership."

Tom Collier also accused Leo of wanting to be the webmaster
"Mr.
Gibson for the new WBCCI forum, and Mr. Garvey,
Webmaster for SaveWally, with each of them interested in being the Webmaster for the new
WBCCl Forum."

This however is the is the part of the finding which needs to be addressed.

If an additional violation of the Code of Ethics occurs during this time period
(with or without a grievance being filed) Mr. Garvey warrants suspension or expulsion from
WBCCI membership

So now Leo can just be booted out without any chance to defend himself..................

I don't think Leo will be muzzled for one year

Do you folks think Leo is entitled to a hearing having witnesses testify under oath as stated in Roberts Rules.

It was suggested by T. Collier in Leo's decision

"conflict cannot be evaluated unless these parties are under oath where the truth can be determined."

So no hearing - No oath - No truth

Is this the way the WBCCI should be administered?


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Old 09-12-2009, 05:15 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goin camping View Post
I don't know Greg or anything about him so I assume he is nice and generous guy who is donating his time, money, bandwidth etc.
Would you still "assume" the same if you were aware that using his position as "super administrator", he moderates away any comments that he disagrees with?

Seems to be more of a Dictator than a Philathropist.
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Old 09-12-2009, 05:25 AM   #84
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Confused!

Well as a new proud owner of an Airstream, I was all ready to join WBCCI and become part of the family. After reading through this thread I'm more confused than ever. I thought camping was about enjoying our leisure, other campers, and our Airstreams. Maybe I'll just boondock and the problem will be solved!

Bob
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Old 09-12-2009, 05:32 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byamcaravanner View Post
Would you still "assume" the same if you were aware that using his position as "super administrator", he moderates away any comments that he disagrees with?

Seems to be more of a Dictator than a Philathropist.

Steve, be careful about what you say about their "Pet Webmaster" he may make you next?

According to Mr. Collier 8/24/09

"disrespectful in communication to and about members ........... These printed words are not an appropriate mode of communication on the forums. These printed words reflect a disparaging attitude ...... toward WBCCI leadership.
printed disparagement engenders ill feelings and thus violates the intent of paragraph two of the WBCCI Code of Ethics. ("To be ever mindful of what we say or print with respect to its effect on others so as to avoid disharmony and ill feelings among club members and to
dedicate ourselves to the work of cementing together the members of WBCCI in bonds of
good fellowship and mutual understanding"
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Old 09-12-2009, 05:43 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrunner View Post
Well as a new proud owner of an Airstream, I was all ready to join WBCCI and become part of the family. After reading through this thread I'm more confused than ever. I thought camping was about enjoying our leisure, other campers, and our Airstreams. Maybe I'll just boondock and the problem will be solved!

Bob
Join there is a lot to offer, all this stuff doesn't effect the local units and the events they have -------------JOIN.
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Old 09-12-2009, 06:07 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrunner View Post
Well as a new proud owner of an Airstream, I was all ready to join WBCCI and become part of the family. After reading through this thread I'm more confused than ever. I thought camping was about enjoying our leisure, other campers, and our Airstreams. Maybe I'll just boondock and the problem will be solved!

Bob
Hello Bob, Welcome to your new life. Come out and camp with the WDCU sometime and you will have the experience you are seeking. Our site is WDCU - Washington D.C. Unit (#170) we are having a rally oct 1-4 in PA.
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Old 09-12-2009, 06:10 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Steve, be careful about what you say about their "Pet Webmaster" he may make you next?

According to Mr. Collier 8/24/09

"disrespectful in communication to and about members ........... These printed words are not an appropriate mode of communication on the forums. These printed words reflect a disparaging attitude ...... toward WBCCI leadership.
printed disparagement engenders ill feelings and thus violates the intent of paragraph two of the WBCCI Code of Ethics. ("To be ever mindful of what we say or print with respect to its effect on others so as to avoid disharmony and ill feelings among club members and to
dedicate ourselves to the work of cementing together the members of WBCCI in bonds of
good fellowship and mutual understanding"
Facts and disparagement are two different things. My membership is #7183 if a grievence might want to be filed.
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Old 09-12-2009, 08:20 AM   #89
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I read with some interest the statement in the above post about promoting harmony. That's exactly the word the Chinese government uses to jail and prosecute people who question any action taken by the government.

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Old 09-12-2009, 10:59 AM   #90
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I wonder:

a)Was there a hearing where the "offenders" were represented?

b)Does Leo have access to an appeal process?

c)Who decides if he "offends" again and if the sanction is suspension or expulsion?

d)How were the three greviences sufficiently different to result in such different outcomes?
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:21 AM   #91
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I can answer a few of these....
a) certainly not
b) apparently not
c) Any of the officers, EC7, IBT, member of WBCCI????
d) You can read the grievances here or over on SaveWally but it comes down to basically this... Leo put together a document that described how the web works at the request of some of the members of the club who were attending International and wanting a little more information. That document was to go to the IBT for review to better understand the issues surrounding the current hosting situation of the "new" forums.
SOMEHOW that document wound up in the hands of Mr. Gibson and he filed a grievance for that and for comments Leo made on the topic. To me it was like shooting fish in a barrel.
Our grievance also stems from comments we made but also from accusations that we stole graphics and other stuff. Like I said - the accusations are posted here and there and you can read them for yourself.
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:21 AM   #92
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Grievance motion

While I can understand the necessity to keep the grievance process confidential during the investigation process, the determination should be published with all the findings. These findings would include, but not limited to, 1) the parties, 2) the actual grievance, 3) the investigation performed, 4) the testimony taken and 5) the result. I was informed by a PIP that a couple of years ago members were suspended, but was not told why. The area of the code of ethics which seems to be violated recently is the ďbe niceĒ section. As one personís freedom fighter is anotherís terrorist, one personís nasty comment is anotherís spirited discussion. If the end of the grievance process is not published, how will the members know the interpretation of the code of ethics?

Is there a member here who has the drafting skills and the knowledge of the WBCCI organization and management documents to prepare a motion which would require the leadership to publish, with detailed findings, the results of each grievance? Concerned members could then take this motion to their units for consideration.


Bill
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Old 09-12-2009, 12:05 PM   #93
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That's a rotten decision to put Leo on probation for what he did and said, it is UNWARANTED! It also gives the the chance to find him guilty and not defend himself and inspire intimidation for future practises that if he would overstep to any of their way of thinking, he is out. Preposterous. I want a redo. There ought to be a petition for member rights. I want to see the show of hands across the scope and breadth of the entire club to see if members find this method of presiding just.

Can anyone tell me why this judicial action does not break the be nice rule and stand as a malicious action and an obscenity to ethics and morals?
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Old 09-12-2009, 12:30 PM   #94
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Bill,

Good idea. In this case Mr. Gibson did ask that these proceedings become public and I would love dearly to post my rebuttal to the charges he levied against myself and my wife. However, I will do so only once I know for sure and certain that this will not open me up to another grievance by Gibson or one of his associates.

I do believe that the members of WBCCI should be aware of the response to the issues and why I believe that the EGC let this go as a matter for the courts to handle.

I can point out that if Mr. Gibson were to file a case against me, he would have to do it as a single person rather than a corporation. Gibson lists his company as "Vintage Airstream LLC." on his web site but I have not been able to find a record of his filings for a limited liability corporation with the state of North Carolina where he is doing business. I have also looked in the state of Tennessee and also the state of Nevada where he has associates and relatives.

The Secretary of State for North Carolina has a wonderful site that lists the current and expired corporation filings which is searchable by corporation name, the name of the applicant, the date range of filing and many others. I was in search of the "resident Agent" for the corporation during the grievance rebuttal I was writing. Suffice it to say that I was unable to confirm a corporation exists for his business as he lists. Perhaps it is registered in another state but I do not have time to go to all 50 states. Personally, I would like to know who his resident agent is and where he is registered as doing business.

To be able to display that you are an LLC gives the business entity validity and protects the officers of that business from certain actions with respect to doing business. But to state you are an LLC when you may not in fact be one seems dishonest at best and takes the validity of the business away.

I am not sure of the legal implications for WBCCI and it's new forums of calling oneself an LLC when they may not actually be one. That should be one that the leadership should look deeply into for it's own protection.
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Old 09-12-2009, 01:27 PM   #95
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Small company owners usually make themselves the registered agent. Out of curiosity I looked up Gregory Gibson under the list of register agents and Gregory L. is agent for a bank and a financial services co. and Greg for a title company. A lot of LLC's and corps get dissolved for not filing their annual reports, but it was too hard to check that list. You might try to go through it or call the SoS for guidance.

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Old 09-12-2009, 01:46 PM   #96
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Actually I did that already. I was not able to find anything of value. As a concerned citizen, I do have the right to know the RA for the corp if it is in fact an LLC. I only mention it because I wonder the issues for WBCCI and the forums in this situation. Maybe it is meaningless and WBCCI is quite safe in this situation in which case the issue is mute.
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Old 09-12-2009, 02:29 PM   #97
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FYI, many corporations and LLCs are organized under the laws of Delaware. Even if that is the case, the entity must be authorized to do business in each state where it is active and there is usually register of foreign entities, ie, not organized in that state, available as public information with the agent for service.

Bill
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Old 09-12-2009, 03:35 PM   #98
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonH View Post
I wonder:

b)Does Leo have access to an appeal process?
There was no indication in the decision, but then again they failed to follow Roberts Rules to begin with.

At this point IMO, Leo needs to lawyer up, a lawsuit would educate the WBCCI how to follow their own bylaws and Roberts Rules.

There is a lot of case law where clubs have been sued and lost big.

Quote:
d)How were the three grievances sufficiently different to result in such different outcomes?

That's an easy one, he has been targeted for voicing his opinions for a long time.

Any of us here or elsewhere are subject to having the same done to them.

The WBCCI uses this catch all umbrella to hang anyone but this time without a hearing as Tom Collier stated;

"WBCCI Code of Ethics. ("To be ever mindful of what we say or print with respect to its
effect on others so as to avoid disharmony and ill feelings among club members and to
dedicate ourselves to the work of cementing together the members of WBCCI in bonds of
good fellowship and mutual understanding"

With decisions like this the WBCCI will need more than cement to bond good fellowship

Another reason is the grievance filed last year against him made them look bad, so this was perhaps payback.

Someone unauthorized did Give Gibson documents that were for the eyes of the IBT, who ever that was was not Leo's friend
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Old 09-12-2009, 05:35 PM   #99
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this is like the kid that poked the hornets nest with a stick. I am watching him run towards the river hoping to find a reed to breath through along the way. I need to mix a cocktail and enjoy watching this unfold.

BTW, my money is on ol' buttercup. I think he is the chief hornet and someone is going to swell up from all the stings.
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Old 09-12-2009, 05:40 PM   #100
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Join there is a lot to offer, all this stuff doesn't effect the local units and the events they have -------------JOIN.
But - If I re-enlist my local unit would get very little of my dues. The lion's share would be spent without regard to what is best for the club but rather would be used to perpetuate a demonstrably failed management plan.

And my re-enlistment would be taken as a vote in favor of precisely the practices that will lead to an undesirable end. Undesirable unless you are a beneficiary, that is.

And - any organization that uses an "ethics" policy to run the organization is not fit for survival anyway.

Pat
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