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Old 12-20-2009, 12:16 PM   #141
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For all the years I've been in the WBCCI, I've heard people complaining about the leadership being behind the times. Maybe the way this club is run is obsolete. Maybe there are differing opinions about how it should be run. But, truth is, it is JUST a trailer club. It's nothing to lose friendships over, or get yourself all worked up, especially during the season of Christmas! I'm not happy seeing what appears to be a small bunch of guys running this great club into the ground and spending my money in stupid ways ...but the government spends a lot more of my money that way than the WBCCI ever does !! I don't intend to just drop out right now. As long as we can still Airstream with the wonderful people we've met over the years in this club, I will continue to do so.

I hope somebody who is disgruntled with the way the current WBCCI leadership is running things, can do something about showing them an alternative way of doing things, and Rob and Frank might be two people who could pull that off. I hope they can. I don't intend to leave the WBCCI at the moment, but if a better alternative comes along, I'd certainly like to Airstream with the "new" group also.

I really enjoy my Airstream and it has served me well for 22 years. For the first ten years of ownership, we were not members of a club, and we had a great time in our Airstream. We joined the WBCCI and then the WDCU in '99 and I've enjoyed the great friends and wonderful rallies. I still think the WBCCI will overcome the difficulties now at hand. Eventually, the leadership will have to modernize and evolve into something better. But even if it doesn't, my Airstream will still be a great trailer, the friends we met thru the club will still be great people, and I'll still be looking forward to my next Airstreaming adventure.

See You down the road ...and Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone!!!

MARC & BECKY
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Old 12-20-2009, 12:21 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeeWee View Post

I will see many of you on the road, at rallies, on the phone, in my e-mail box.

I'm not running. Just changing venue.

I want to wish all, I do mean all of you, a very Joyous Christmas, and prosperity in the New Year 2010. Enjoy the Holiday Season with Reason.
Pee Wee, now we seem to be something alike... I am doing the same.. just changing the venue.

And your last point, all those wishes - RIGHT BACK AT YA as well as everyone else.

Rob
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Old 12-20-2009, 12:26 PM   #143
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Pee Wee, now we seem to be something alike... I am doing the same.. just changing the venue.

And your last point, all those wishes - RIGHT BACK AT YA as well as everyone else.

Rob
I'm just leaving the forum, but not by history and staunch belief in the WBCCI. If I did have an Airstream, and if I was a member, I would not being changing that venue.

Only the venue of this forum. When you mix apples and bananas you get fruit salad.
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Old 12-20-2009, 12:29 PM   #144
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Fruit Salad

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Originally Posted by PeeWee View Post

When you mix apples and bananas you get fruit salad.
I LOVE Fruit Salad!
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Old 12-20-2009, 12:38 PM   #145
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The fourm was always a lark. I enjoyed sharing history. I will be attending rallies. I will be continuing to add to the Sierra Nevada Units history section. I will be doing interviews. I will be writing a journal. I do believe that there are positive soulutions to any problem. That destruction is not answer. I'm am not leaving the world of Wally Byam, Helen Byam Schwamborn, or Airstream.

I will see many of you on the road, at rallies, on the phone, in my e-mail box.

I'm not running. Just changing venue.

I want to wish all, I do mean all of you, a very Joyous Christmas, and prosperity in the New Year 2010. Enjoy the Holiday Season with Reason.
I hope one of those things you are planning to do will be that book we talked about you writing. I know it is on my christmas wish list and a publisher has not been selected.

I too am not running, I am changing venues also.
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Old 12-20-2009, 12:40 PM   #146
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I love fruit salad too, but not with apples and bananas (they turn brown right away in a salad). I prefer grapes, strawberries, honeydew, blueberries, pineapple and some other fruit. Most everyone has their own kind of fruit salad in this century. But others don't like fruit salad, they just want one fruit at a time.

It's time for different salads or individual fruits for different people.

Gene
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Old 12-20-2009, 01:01 PM   #147
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You NEED apples and bananas for a good fruit salad...maybe it's the dressing?

It's interesting that the majority of the discussion ABOUT the WBCCI is done on a forum completely separate from the WBCCI.

I read a lot of folks here inviting people to join the WB Club....but very few invites coming back this way.
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Old 12-20-2009, 01:17 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post

It's interesting that the majority of the discussion ABOUT the WBCCI is done on a forum completely separate from the WBCCI.
Bob,

It's really not interesting, but sad... this conversation would never be tolerated over there. I tried a number of times to raise these issues on Charlie's forum and it was received as a attack.

Maybe that is one reason the club is falling apart.
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Old 12-20-2009, 01:24 PM   #149
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Another campfire dialogue heard during rallies. Paraphrase as a composite discussion:

First person states something like: You know WBCCI’s existence enabled Units to be created and remain viable for generations of happy Airstreamers. Thousands of rallies, hundreds of caravans and millions of social activities, and maybe the Company would not have existed as it does without a strong club to perform the necessary functions of planning, operating, directing and controlling its needs.
And someone says: “Yes, but that was then, now its dysfunctional, and they marginalize us, so lets quit and start our own club, or a camping non-club.
Someone else says: Are you serious? Do your realize how difficult, time consuming and frustrating that can be? In so many years it will end up being just as rule laden as old WBCCI.

First person changes topic: The club is good and the members are good. The compelling proof is that the club still exists and functions. But sadly it sill exist and functions as it was conceived. We still have many benevolent and generous volunteers. It’s the changes in demographics and life styles together with more discretionary time and money that are having a negative impact on all clubs. So what are you going to do about that?
Someone else says: ‘Get rid of the stagnant and the archaic customs and those rituals based on 20th century ways of conducting meeting and communicating.’
Next person: What ever we do, we should focus on the important changes we want implemented, avoid minor differences and work together.
Next person says: ‘Bob Wheeler had the courage to initiate a “Town Hall Meeting – Q&A Airstream” on Airforums.com. Why can’t the WBCCI presidents do the same?
Someone else again: Are you kidding? They wouldn’t dare risking exposure. The job description doesn’t list fact-finding and problem solving.

First Person: In his essay, Phil Pons defined leadership and explained the differences between being a leader and just being a manager or administrator that goes by the book. What we need is innovative leadership, or at least a benevolent dictator.’
Someone adds: I think it was de Tocqueville that said: “in a democracy, the people get the government they deserve.” Does that go for clubs too?
Another person: “Yea, but the IBT is not running a democracy. It’s take it or leave it.”

Back to first person: “Many don’t care enough to do anything more then they already did. One older gentleman said that in about two years he and his wife hope to find a retirement home and then sell their trailer. They enjoyed Airstreaming but now have little energy to push for changing a club they will soon leave. He just hoped things are stable during the time they have left. He said some IBT members also want things to stay the way they are while they’re still alive and active. Let the young people fight for changes and live with the results- -which are not guaranteed to be any better. If this gentleman’s Unit or Region presented any progressive amendments, he would vote, but he said he isn’t aware of any.
Would you try to talk this elderly couple (a UPP and FL) out of their passive attitude?
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Old 12-20-2009, 01:26 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
You NEED apples and bananas for a good fruit salad...maybe it's the dressing?

It's interesting that the majority of the discussion ABOUT the WBCCI is done on a forum completely separate from the WBCCI.

I read a lot of folks here inviting people to join the WB Club....but very few invites coming back this way.
Robert you see that is a fallacy. In my former unit virtually all were forums members. Of those virtually all are supporting members like myself. Until very recently this forum was not looked at as a club. It was viewed as a social knowledge network. Thank God AndyR gives the WB folks a place to talk about these things here. All these threads about the WB are in a section devoted to just the wb so if it offends you it is easy to just avoid the entire category. Very simple stuff.
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Old 12-20-2009, 01:38 PM   #151
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Why is there always this human tendency to " take my ball and go home." In the bigger picture, none of this WBCCI stuff matters at all. Gain what you can from forums, avoid those topics that upset you, help others where you might. And, never get upset with cyber-people. You don't know them.

Tom W
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Old 12-20-2009, 03:18 PM   #152
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It's the structure...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 65GT View Post
I think much of our problems involve the relevancy of the club. At the unit level for most the club is truly relevant. The questions become what customs and personality does a unit have? Will any three neighboring units in any given region attract different types of Airstreamers? I believe without a doubt, YES.

A) There may be some out there that still revel in the white blouses, white dress shirts ties, processions etc.. (creating something more than airstream ownership and use was intended to be). I don't believe anyone intentionally goes and buys an Airstream to land in this circle. This group, I believe, truly represents the smallest minority in the WBCCI.

B) Then there are likely groups of folks that prefer chopping wood (no really), campfires, potlucks, conversation, etc... (campers focused on Airstream ownership and its use). You can add event type rallys and some nature stuff to that. This is the majority group I believe.

C) There are likely many that would prefer to take that up a notch to the party level. These folks might primarily be working members looking for a good release for the weekend, encompassing group B stuff and ramping up.

While group B might definitely refrain from group A look and feel, Group C has eyebrows fully raised to any suggestion that any part of group A ever gets near their group.

Division....

I think the real problem is that the majority of this club, and it's growing units are B & C, and once you move beyond your local unit upward you are increasingly and more intensely faced with A. A is simply no longer relevant to the majority of the membership. It's an oddity at best (my opinion), yet it's this group that essentially runs our club at region levels and higher. The problems for the membership are that not only do they run the club, they directly benefit from collective income produced by ALL three groups.

B types don't pay a whole lot of attention as to what goes on at the top of this club. C types nearly need to be dragged to the topics involved, to even be aware that the A group exists. Until there's trouble...

In today's Airstream world -- it is the activities and dress of the A group that truly is no longer relevant. The A people are great and a whole lot of fun, but their dress, ceremonies and upper crust aversions aren't doing this club one bit of good.

We all need to hold interventions for these A group types and bring them back to the realities of camping. This club must focus on the very reasons why people buy Airstreams -- and nearly everything else needs to be flushed from the look and feel of this club.

I don't think the problems are generational. The problems are members, regardless of age, are somehow drawn to believe that the types of dress, processions, and perceived honor and prestige that are available to them at the top levels of this club are what they want. It has very little to do with recognizing and wanting to fix issues in this club, or coming in with a true sense to serve, to make things better.

If these folks came into office to fix things, you couldn't pull down a 30+ year track record of near continual annual membership losses. You wouldn't be deficit spending THREE years in a row totaling more than $200,000.00 in the gopher hole.

The problems are that we're continually turning over leaders that simply want to lead. Results and accomplishments have almost nothing to do with why they are in those positions. They came for the honor and the prestige. The title and the benefits. Am I wrong -- follow the money -- look at the numbers. How do leaders promote and participate in a parade of honor when they just dropped ~$150,000.00 from the kitty. That was purely irresponsible. That was a total mismanagement of the member's funds.

Do away with the 3-digit numbers, the processions, the reimbursements. That's probably the best starting point to find out who wants to work for this club, volunteer, and who just wants to play important. Take away their benefits, their pomp and circumstance, their prestige and honor, and see who is still standing, working to better this club, instead of merely marking time, basking in a false glory...

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Leo,

I am inclined to agree with 99.8 of what you have said.

But I think there is on thing that is missing.

The "missing link" is the structure of the WBCCI which, IMNSHO, is one of the main problems; the structure itself creates much of the division that you speak about.

If the units were completely separate organizations with the ability to do as they darn well please without any oversight from a national organization a good portion of that which you speak to simply goes away.

But I think a national organization would be a very nice thing to have but that it must operate independently from whatever local organizations there are.

As for Regions, I do not see the need; just more overhead, expense and bureaucracy.

A national organization that is a stand alone entity will only survive if it can show relevance to the local clubs.

If a national organization can offer assistance to local groups who want to form clubs that is something positive that they can offer. If a national organization can provide relevance to the local clubs and show value by offering insurance coverage under the umbrella of the national organization to "chartered clubs" the local clubs would receive a cost benefit.

The "Chartered Clubs" would pay a minuscule fee for their charter; say $10 a year.

For a local club to become a "Chartered Club" all they should need is $10 for the annual fee and 5 members in their club who are also memebers of the national organization.

Membership in the national organization is an individual thing. No need to be a member of a local club to join; ok to join if you are in a local club too.

Members of the national organization have control; each member gets to vote. No nominating committees; s/he who wants to run for office nominates them self.

With a structure of like this I don't see the vast majority of issues that exist in today's WBCCI.

Jim
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Old 12-20-2009, 03:33 PM   #153
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Robert you see that is a fallacy.

Frank,

What's a fallacy?, just because you go both ways, in no way ties the WB to the Forums, although I did join both the boy and girl scouts as a kid.
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Old 12-20-2009, 04:12 PM   #154
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Talk about a dead horse....this thread should be put out of its misery.
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Old 12-20-2009, 04:37 PM   #155
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Frank,

What's a fallacy?, just because you go both ways, in no way ties the WB to the Forums, although I did join both the boy and girl scouts as a kid.
I was going to comment but you made such complete utter sense.

Girl scout... good one...
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Old 12-20-2009, 05:53 PM   #156
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Insurance mentioned again as a tangible benefit to the membership and another good reason to remain in the Club. In 27 years of membership I have never heard of any claim made under the policy. What does the policy cover that our personal, residential and vehicle liability insurance do not cover? What does it cost and could Units get identical or better coverage on their own for a competative price? Has anyone actually seen the policy? I have been told by Unit Presidents that they could not get a copy of the policy for confidentiality reasons.

For all I know the Club insurance may be a good thing and a little transparency would let the membership judge for themselves.

But then the lack of transparency is one of galling issues between the membership and the elites.
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Old 12-20-2009, 06:35 PM   #157
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Defending yourself in a court of law...

Quote:
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Insurance mentioned again as a tangible benefit to the membership and another good reason to remain in the Club. In 27 years of membership I have never heard of any claim made under the policy. What does the policy cover that our personal, residential and vehicle liability insurance do not cover? What does it cost and could Units get identical or better coverage on their own for a competative price? Has anyone actually seen the policy? I have been told by Unit Presidents that they could not get a copy of the policy for confidentiality reasons.

For all I know the Club insurance may be a good thing and a little transparency would let the membership judge for themselves.

But then the lack of transparency is one of galling issues between the membership and the elites.
Or, as someone else once asked in another thread:

Why does a small group need ins. if you are so worried have people sign a disclaimer, like some Dr's do ,that you can not sue.

To whit I responded:

The following is based on an actual experience.

I was involved in the United States Cycling Federation for many years. This group sanctions and provides the rules structure in the USA for bicycle racing.

All participants sign wavers stating that they will not hold the USCF or its officials, etc., responsible should they be injured, etc., etc., etc.

In one of the races I worked a rider pulled in front of a vehicle of one of the race officials and his bicycle was knocked to the ground.

His mother sued the vehicle operator and the USCF even though she had signed the waiver.

While she did not prevail, an attorney had to be hired to defend the person operating the vehicle and the organization. The waiver was brought up during the initial deposition.

The point of all this is that once the attorney's get involved the only way the situation can be dealt with is by way of the legal system and that costs money.

Fortunately the attorney's fee for appearing on behalf of the vehicle operator were provided by insurance that covered all of the officials at the event and provided by the USCF.

I don't know about you, but $325.00 and hour for 5 hours was more than I would have wanted to pay for that service which is what it would have cost if we were not insured.

END_OF_RESPONSE_TO_OTHER_THREAD

And by the way, the vehicle operators insurance refused to do anything because the individual was performing a "service" and that, so they stated, was not covered in the insurance on the vehicle. I suppose he could have hired an attorney to take on the insurance company but that too would have cost money; probably lots of it.

One of the wonders of America is that anyone can sue anyone for anything at any time.

Personally, I am not willing to do much of anything for anyone these days without the sponsoring organization providing liability coverage for all who "work" the event. In this day and age it is common practice for law suits to name anyone and everyone associated with hosting the event.

While you might not loose the suit, that is NOT the issue. The issue is that you MUST defend yourself and the organization must defend itself. If you do not you will be found in default and the judgment will go against you. Defending yourself in a court of law is NOT a cheap activity.

Jim
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Old 12-20-2009, 09:41 PM   #158
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Norsea misunderstands my concern. I am fully aware of the need for insurance to cover activities undertaken by officers and members of the organization not covered by their personal, residential and vehicle policies. I support such coverage.

My secondary concern is that while WBCCI has such coverage, the extent of that coverage is apparently not available to the membership. I want to know what it covers so I can make my own decision if it is a good deal or not.

I am concerned with the lack of transparency. Why can the membership not have access to the policy. I base that on two presidents of our Unit being told they did not have access. One instance was about five years ago and the other more recent.

My primary concern is the way in which the Club does business. The elite make decisions on what the rest of us may see, hear and do. They do this in isolation from the membership. I don't fell I need lay that out, chapter and verse. Hundreds of postings on the various forums have already done that.
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:32 AM   #159
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Not knowing how good the insurance you have is not a good thing. I would think everybody should have access to all that information on line. I will tell you a story about non profit mess up.

My friend who coached for a non profit club paid insurance premiums every month to the club. When his wife became pregnant and went to the doctor for a check up the doctor's office told her she did not have insurance. To make a long story short the club kept taking the premiums out of his check but quit paying on the insurance policy.

I told my friend he should take them to court. It was settled but I do not know the details. Now that is scarey!

Brian
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Old 12-21-2009, 07:44 AM   #160
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Norsea misunderstands my concern. I am fully aware of the need for insurance to cover activities undertaken by officers and members of the organization not covered by their personal, residential and vehicle policies. I support such coverage.
.
RonH

You have one HUGH MISCONCEPTION. Any insurance purchased by Management that you are not advised of the coverage clearly does not include coverage for you.

Corporations by several levels of insurance, product, employee health, employee loss, leadership loss, and most important management mistakes and misconduct. Of these you as employee only get the benefit and notification of health insurance.

The insurance purchased by the Club in no way covers you for anything. You can be assured that it covers the Leadership for any and all losses to an extent beyond their personal worth. It is that level of coverage they want to keep confidential.

Keep in mind your Medicare and pension benefits are somewhat less than the coverage your Congressman has. Then again they wrote both.
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