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Old 12-19-2009, 03:43 PM   #101
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Helen Would be Flattered

My Mother, would have been flattered with the suggestion the Club be named after her. Very nice! However, she would have never wanted that. Never, ever. It wasn't the times or the position women had in the 50's, 60's and 70's. The Airstream owners wanted a Club. It was on the table to call it the Airstream Club. However, for various reasons it became the Wally Byam Caravan Club. 1. There were already Wally Byam Caravans before the Club was founded. 2. The name Airstream had always been interchangeable with the name Wally Byam. Say one realize the other. 3. Certain separation of church and state. Wally Byam Caravan Club seemed to distance itself from Airstream. 4. The Airstream owners wanted to honor Wally.

Yes, today Wally would take the IBT to task, but he would have equal pain, shame with the way people are carrying on.

I don't make light of the fact that all the negative comments, and in most cases very rude remarks don't stand up very long. When you come from a family of positive people, you don't run away from a problem. No matter how minor or how severe. Considering the magnitude of the problems, they do need to be faced. Words are not action.

I have felt that the non-IBT leaders, which there are many, aren't directing the energies in a responsible manner. Many are running away. What needs is to elect at the ground roots a new leadership that can correct what they feel is wrong, and guide the Club for another 50 years. Most of the people that are complaining will never assume the responsibility of being on the road most of the year. Yes, that could change. But for 54 years the governing board of elected officials have traveled coast to coast, going to rallies and meeting with various units.

For each of you that believe there are problems in the management of the Club, there is an equal misrepresentation at the bottom with people unwilling to work and rejuvenate the existing Club.

I was coxed by a few close and Club loyal friends to continue to post until the first of the year. I am exercising that request. It is my goal to remove all forum addresses from files on January 1, 2010. I really don't need this crap.

Also I find it very interesting. I never mention names, only situations. I use pointed words, yes I do. Apparently there are too many of you that need to be shook by the scruff of your necks. Both at the top and at the bottom. It amazes me the defensive phone calls, private messages, and e-mails that I get. It reminds me of Robert DeNiro in Taxi. 'You talkin' to me?" Well yes? Well no? Only if the shoe fits.

A fact about defensive posturing. Normally it is a sign of some form of guilt.
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Old 12-19-2009, 04:07 PM   #102
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In my experience it is when people feel they are not heard or they cannot change what needs to be changed, that they get angry. The anger comes from feeling they are not treated fairly and that they tried and tried to change something that resists every attempt at change. They already tried to work from within, but were stopped over and over. That type of anger is fully justifiable and quite normal. When those people were ones who were dedicated to the organization, their anger is also understandable. To criticize them for their experience is not fair.

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Old 12-19-2009, 04:37 PM   #103
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Master Kan: What is gained by using one's strength in violence and anger?

Young Caine: A victory that is swift.

Master Kan: Yet to be violent is to be weak, for violence has no mind. Is it not wiser to seek a man's love than to desire his swift defeat?

"The courageous fighter shuns violence. The skillful soldier avoids anger. A mighty warrior does not fight for petty conquests." - Caine
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Old 12-19-2009, 04:40 PM   #104
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Pee Wee, as a new member,i saw my region 1 president Bob Thompson. In PEI canada last year.What happened to him, boiled at the stake. We all need to decentralize the club, from the top and have more fun, lets all give the power to the people and units and enjoy what we all come here for family, friendship and camping. Its that simple.
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Old 12-19-2009, 05:02 PM   #105
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My hope for WBCCI

I too am deeply concerned by the lack of accountability of those in leadership positions, by what appears from my perspective to be an unwillingness to change with the times, fiscal policies that will lead to bankruptcy, and a dues structure which is likely to accelerate the ongoing loss in membership.

Passion is a wonderful thing and its great that so many here feel strongly about the club (sure beats apathy). Having said that, its worth remembering that we are not talking about national security here, but rather a camping club. Wally was not a religious figure, he was a camper salesman. Passion helps to get things done, but it can also fuel actions that do great damage. Sometimes our passions lead to a regrettable tone.

I honestly don't know if I will be sending in a check this year. The proposed increase in dues is hard to choke down given the situation. I do hope that whatever happens I will remain civil to all involved. I hope that I can question peoples actions and choices that I disagree with without questioning their intentions and character. I hope we all will reflect before posting in anger and frustration.
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Old 12-19-2009, 05:40 PM   #106
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We're thinking about joining as permanent members (or whatever they're called). Personally, I doubt that this dues-increase proposal will pass, but in the long run everything will become more expensive, whether it's club dues or bicycle tires. It's the American way, and the permanent membership is a way to ... be unamerican?

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Old 12-19-2009, 06:08 PM   #107
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Trying to appreciate opposing views based on things I heard during rallies and caravans. So let me paraphrase such a discussion with a composite dialogue here:

First person states something like: ‘A primary concern is that the IBT is too independent and follows self-serving and self- perpetuation rules of order. Therefore, the ‘natural rights’ of the membership are an infringement on the ‘legal rights’ of the IBT. That’s a threat to the IBT’s authority, and they feel it has to be resisted, however arrogant and destructive it may appear.’
And someone says: “ Yea, like some third-world dictatorships.”
Someone else says: “Hold off, give them a break, let them enjoy their power trip. Maybe this is the highest the poor fellow advanced since he left a full time day job. Don’t make waves, its Happy Hour so sit back and enjoy it while it lasts.”
Another one pipes in: “They don’t need to pad their resume but some might need more in their obituary.”

This type of exchange goes down hill for several minutes until people start to express ways to change the rules, but there is no follow-through and nothing changes.

Many find this negative talk offensive and it is, but it is also the catalyst for change. Realize that such dialogue is quite normal going back to the Greek philosophers and the disputations of the middle ages. I worked, traveled and talked with people living in countries with repressive
governments. Complaints about those in power are common so why should anyone expect otherwise is this situation.

Some members are more articulate than others, and know how the use Robert’s Rules to their advantage. They developed smooth rhetorical techniques to easily put down others lacking such skills. Be thankful for this “AirForums.com” where everyone can speak without fear of being subjected to grievances, suspensions or expulsions. I agree with PeeWee and others that we all should always try to be civil and respectful of others. We also need to hear the frustrated and angry members who might express their unmet expectations in a rude way.
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:19 PM   #108
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could you please show me an example of where someone in this thread has "expressed themselves rudely".... I would like an example of that please.
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:34 PM   #109
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What's "rude" to one is understandable frustration to another. The frustrated and angry person may be the person who is correct.

Often a vigorous and perhaps disturbing dialogue eventually sorts out the truth for the majority.

Those who oppose change or oppose the only ways to make change happen may call for "civility" and try to squelch dialogue because the tone of the discussion upsets them even if they actually want change too.

When an organization has become "institutionalized" to the point it is rigid and undemocratic the dialogue will reflect everything from anger to frustration to annoyance to defensiveness to apologias to outright, seemingly rational, support of the way things are (justification and rationalization are popular ways of doing that).

Eventually significantly large subgroups will coalesce and make decisions on what to do—some will go off on their own, some will continue to try to change the organization, some will try to change it who never acted before, some will start a new organization, some will join another existing organization.

All this is happening as the various dialogues (i.e., threads) continue. Change is in the air and perhaps one of the tipping points has been reached—yet another straw crippling the camel.

It's messy and it is the way the debate happens and change occurs.

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Old 12-19-2009, 06:46 PM   #110
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Calling for civil discourse is not the equivalent of squelching discussion. I am merely saying that we should attempt to keep our focus on what changes need to be made and how to go about making them while avoiding personal attacks.
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Old 12-19-2009, 07:01 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Gen Disarray View Post
Calling for civil discourse is not the equivalent of squelching discussion. I am merely saying that we should attempt to keep our focus on what changes need to be made and how to go about making them while avoiding personal attacks.

I have re-read the thread and I still don't see any rudeness or personal attacks. Examples? PM them to me if it is too far off topic.
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Old 12-19-2009, 07:04 PM   #112
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By creating the VAP and having a leadership role in the WDCU, Rob is arguably one of the most influential people in the modern Airstream community. Without doubt, he's a deeply passionate Airstream fan. While it took considerable time and effort, the WBCCI eventually lost him. Think about it. The WBCCI lost one of the few people left on the planet who may have cared what Wally Byam ate for breakfast on April 12, 1951.

I understand that this is a bitter pill to swallow, PeeWee, because of your familial relationship to the WBCCI. You are not going to gain any converts, however, by blaming the forums or name-calling. Rob has left. He's not thinking about fixing the WBCCI. He's thinking about what's next. Why spend the time and energy trying to save a fading club? 26 motions? The only time a person should consider 26 motions is in reading the Kama Sutra.

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Old 12-19-2009, 07:20 PM   #113
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Calling for civil discourse is not the equivalent of squelching discussion.
Agreed. Some use the call for "civility" as a cover for squelching discussion. Squelching can occur for a number of reasons—some people avoid confrontation, some are made nervous by it, and so on—the motivations fill many a psychology text book.

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Old 12-19-2009, 07:28 PM   #114
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I find no fault in someone like Rob who's invested so much in the club deciding that they simply can do better than the battles they continue to lose to a system that is so deeply entrenched.

I also don't have a problem with those that feel the system is good enough for them. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I do have a problem with the notion that simply for having a different opinion someone is therefore rude, inferred as less than intelligent etc etc etc.

I think it simply breaks down to what individuals want, and whether the current club provides that or not. If it does, GREAT, but just like in the business world, supply and demand. If the business model (club structure) doesn't meet the needs of the customers (members), the company can either change to meet the customers' needs, or expect another company (club) to emerge that will do it instead. Seems to me the current international model is an attempt to change the customer, not the model, which doesn't seem to be working well based on these threads, the club checkbook, and membership numbers.


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26 motions? The only time a person should consider 26 motions is in reading the Kama Sutra.

The Airstream adventure is front of us, not behind us.
This could make an interesting Airstream poster..... I looked it up BTW, there are 64 in the original, Rob didn't even make it half way.....
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Old 12-19-2009, 07:32 PM   #115
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Just say Thanks and See ya Down the Road

I find this whole thread somewhat “Entertaining” (Could be because there’s two feet of snow outside and no one can get out) to some degree. It started out as a member of the WBCCI saying he was leaving the club.

How about instead of a WBCCI “Bitchfest” we all just say:

“Rob, thanks for all you have done to move the WBCCI, VAC, WDCU and Airstreaming as a whole along, and we hope to see you down the road. God Bless you and your family and may you have a very Merry Christmas”
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Old 12-19-2009, 08:07 PM   #116
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Calling Pee Wee out here is just plain rude. Does he own a rig? Is he a member? give me a break. he was there in the beginning and this club is a family legacy. why wouldn't the man stand up for it?

i had the priviledge of breaking bread with pee wee and his wife in 2009 and it was the single highlight of my Airstreaming adventure. Sitting and listening to the first hand stories about the early caravans and days of the club was truly special to me. it was like night at the museum airstream style.

what is bugging me about Rob and Frank are their efforts to get others to defect from the club. that is where they have taken their own personal protests to an uncivil level.

walk if you want - godspeed. but to use the celebrity rob and frank have developed at the VAP in a destructive way is plain wrong. they want to infect their personal vendettas on unwitting Wallyites. Pee Wee is right, this discussion is not civil in any way. flames don't have to be flying for discourse. i was on message boards in the 90's - you guys have no clue what a real flame war is. oh the bygone days.

Both Frank and Rob know my deep appreciation for them - I consider them camping buddies and good friends. however, their actions and words this week has torn me apart. the club won't be quite the same without them parked in the rally field.

LONG LIVE THE WBCCI!
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Old 12-19-2009, 08:45 PM   #117
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LONG LIVE THE WBCCI!
Not if the IBT continues to plunder the treasury like it has been. Not if the IBT continues to hold the right to deny motions that may bring about needed change at their expense.

This "uprising" is not about a few club members getting their noses out of joint and deciding to walk away. It is about club members who are fed up with irresponsible leadership and an inability to change it. The writing is on the wall folks. This club that we all love is spending itself into extinction! We want fiscal responsibility and the ability to make motions for change that have a chance to be heard. Are you aware that the IBT alone decides whether or not a motion can be heard? That is so far away from accountability that I find it unbelievable!

I am 40 years old. I want this club to be around in 25 years when I am able to retire with my wife and go on some of those wonderful caravans that so many of you have been able to enjoy. I don't want to bring down the WBCCI. I want to see it stop withering on the vine. I want to see it thrive once again. The first step is to get the IBT to start realizing that they have been put in a position of leadership so that they can serve the membership, not be served by the membership.
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Old 12-19-2009, 08:52 PM   #118
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Another reason

I started this Airstreaming when my Grandfather passed away - he was a big time Airstreamer back in the 60s and 70s and I grew up on the with an Airstream parked out behind or next the Greenhouse and farm market. In 98 when I bought my first Airstream at the age of 28, I watched, lurked if you will and finally joined the WBCCI in 2001. At that point, discussing and listening to all the issues, I was told by the unit leaders / elders that we have to wait for the changes..they'll come one day - when we get guys that think we do into the IBT." Now, when I see these guys, man, it's been almost a decade of years, they still are fed up with the shananigans the IBT are pulling, but these guys are alot whiter in the hair, getting older, time keeps on ticking, and not much has changed.

Many old folks never understand why we can't wait for change - I have been, patiently - hoping and trying to offer suggestions for betterment - many of you have seen and commented on my suggestions.

My fourth son, since I've been in the WBCCI, Finn was just born. I can tell you... I will blink and eye and he will be 5 and then I will blink again and he will be in high school. Heck, Stanton, my oldest, who first full night of sleep was in an Airstream, is 8.5. My kids don't need to lose the fun of being a kid waiting for the IBT to realize that the rest of us are in the club too. Plus, with a blink of an eye, my kids will be gone, and I'm not waiting any longer.

I've been thinking - "Do I actually need a club to get fun out of my Airstream?" - My actual answer is "No, I don't" - but I keep going back to the friends that I've made and want to part of something greater - something that cares of me, the member participating - something my kids get something out of (they have a ton of "Airstream" friends)... so even though I don't need a club for Airstreamers, a CAMPING club for like minded individuals, I want one - but right now - the IBT and how they are running the WBCCI is not that "ONE"...

I've asked for people to PM me if they wanted to.. and I've received many PMs in just the two short days this thread has been running..

For right now, you're the ones I want to go camping with.. it'll be informal for a little bit, as things get underway, but a AIRSTREAM CAMPING club that into traveling to camping destinations together, that loves boon-docking, that's into preserving, advertising and living all things Airstream, can spend QUALITY time, but not alot of $$$ outside of "Reaching the destination" doing it. That is what is coming.. If we all come together for that common cause - it'll be great - just like what it was all about back in the day.

That's where I'm coming from - from the heart.

I'm not waiting for my kids to grow up and fly the coop - they mean way to much to me for that... It is our awesome hobby or much needed way to get away from it all anyway! Keep it simple - right.. the fun will just happen!

See you at the WBBB - it's gonna be a blast! It's like this - Hey guys and girls - I'm going to another PARTY, who wants to come? Nothing scary in that... if the WBCCI wants you, my feelings are that they need to EARN you and your money! Sweet Sovereign of my Road!

Sincerely, Rob
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Old 12-19-2009, 09:10 PM   #119
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Tim Shepard created the VAP . . .

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By creating the VAP . . . Rob [Baker] is arguably one of the most influential people in the modern Airstream community. .
Hi Hamp:

Rob has done a lot of things, but I'm sure even he will tell you he did not create the VAP. That honor belongs to VAP creator and host, Tim Shepard. Rob is simply one member of the three member Panel of Pros, and Frank is an occasional guest. I'm setting the record straight because this is the second time you have misstated something that occurred long before you joined us, and I don't want to see a mistake gain traction through repetition. Give VAPit where VAPit is due, to Tim Shepard.
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Old 12-19-2009, 09:37 PM   #120
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Give VAPit where VAPit is due, to Tim Shepard.
Tim is the host of the show and Rob and Colin, if my memory serves me correctly, have been there from episode 1. Rob and Colin are the on-air talent. Tim plays the straight man on air and makes it all happen behind the scenes.

as an aside, Rob should verify that I was his very first fan encounter. i should add not in a tiger woods kind of way. it was in a happy hour conversational kind of way.
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