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Old 12-18-2009, 11:59 AM   #61
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Our next steps... sit idle I think not!

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Originally Posted by RoverOwner View Post
I would rather have my family camp with Rob Baker and people with his attitude any day of the week. Family values, responsiblilty, honesty, and fun versus fiscal ineptitude, stuffed shirts, passive-agressiveness, and a "me first attitude". The WBCCI is not for me right now. I hope that it will be again some day.
Gary - Where exactly did Roverowner state that any of you did not have family values? I don't think he did... and knowing John, that's not his intent... if anyone knows, and I do - typing is the hardest form of communication to get a point across without angering someone... no voice tones / inflections, no eye contact, etc.. wait until you meet John Gary, you'll really enjoy him as you guys have a ton in common...

And yes, I think Rover Owner's comments are directed to the IBT and the WBCCI current leadership... Fiscal ineptitude? it fits! Stuff Shirts - it fits! Me First attiutude ( Give me my mileage re-imbursement, or give me a balanced budget..... ) - it definately fits!

I see another path to a better destination... and am working on that. Some people say I quit - but that is furthest from the truth. My passion or AirstreamIntoItNess is as strong as ever.. probably more so right now!

History teaches us all and it repeats itself - Time: 1776. There were a group of fellas names John (two actually), Thomas, George, Ben, James, and Alexander that saw a cause worth fighting for - for something better than what was being offered. Look at the result. It took a fight, but I think we are all grateful that they did what they did. They risked alot for taking that chance.

"The states ultimately determined collectively that the British monarchy, by acts of tyranny, could no longer legitimately claim their allegiance. They then united to form one nation, breaking away from the British Empire in July 1776 when the Congress issued the Declaration of Independence, rejecting the monarchy on behalf of the United States of America. "


Well, I'm taking the same chance. I know many, many others feel the same way.

Things are churing right now, and that they must! Without churn and turmoil, nothing happens. There is a goal that I see achievable with the proper steps, strategic planning, with valid assumptions that become facts in order to not step into pitfalls.

If you are on the fence, stay there, don't walk away just yet.... in the end, you'll still be able to:

1. still walk away, or
2. you may join the the status quo (give or keep giving the IBT your money to let them pay their way, have stuffy dinners, pomp and circumstance of ceremonies, expensive catered dinners for the few - all at your expense, not listen to any of the members, or allow ideas that challenge their ways - (sounds like taxation without representation to me)) 3. you'll decide join our group that is against all that and truly enjoy a club that is of the Member, By the Member, and for the member - sound familiar?

There will always be the rebels or revolutionaries, just as there will always be the loyalists or tories. Some will join a cause for something different and some will stay with how things are. It's your choice - we're in America - we have a choice. But if you stay, you must know and realize that you are just feeding the $$$ hungry IBT machine that has no regard on how they spend your hard earned money.

I'm ready to lead it.. I'm not sitting idly by. I just have to get a few things in order and get a few things organized... PM if you're interested in helping me out.

Rob Baker - who sees a much shinier trailer down the road!
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Old 12-18-2009, 12:53 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by doug&maggie View Post
What IS the solution from within? Let's see a list of what can be done by members not at the top to make the needed changes.
A list? Okay, here's just a partial list:
1. Get Interantional officers nominated and elected from the floor of the Delegates Meeting.
2. Change certain elements of the WBCCI Constitution to remove some of the IBT's power.
3. Unit Delegates need to become advocates for their Units, not just rubber stamps. This means they must become familiar with what a Delegate is as explained in Roberts Rules, so that they participate actively in the Annual Delegates Meeting.
4. One member, one vote! Members at Large should have a voice.
5. Require Officers at all levels to report to the membership any conflict of interest, such as deep discounts and other perks they have received as a result of their office.
6. Require fiscal responsibility.
7. Require transparency.

Any of these items has been attempted at one time or another, but with little success. The problem isn't a shortage of ideas, the problem is finding a way to implement them.
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:01 PM   #63
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Mid-Winter Motion 26 just added

Roy MacDonald, President of Region 2, just asked that I add a new and 26th motion to the mid-winter motions doc at the Region 2 website. This motion has been kicked around the perverbial campfire for at least a year now. It is nice to see it making it's way to the floor. This 26th motion is a big one and I think will go far in fixing the fiscal problems the club is experiencing. I hope it get's real consideration. Kudos to the Four Corners Unit for offering constructive, not destructive, solutions.

Visit http://www.wbcci2.org to read the motion in full.
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:04 PM   #64
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Visit http://www.wbcci2.org to read the motion in full.
The Server failed to retrieve the requested data
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:06 PM   #65
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??Good-bye WBCCI??

As a lifetime WBCCI member who joined the club originally in 1995, I have enjoyed a wide variety of rallys and caravans. In addition, I have had the privilege of meeting a number of members who are icons or near icons of either the club or various units within the club. My focus of participation has been activities of my “home” unit (Wisconsin), the Vintage Airstream Club, or Free Wheelers; as with several other organizations to which I belong, the politics of the national organization are not all that palatable but the local or sub-organizations make membership worthwhile. While I don’t find the conduct of the IBT all that palatable, I won’t allow those feelings to keep me from enjoying the Unit, Regional, and sub-organization activities that have been so much a part of my summer travels since 1995.

Unfortunately, I am losing hope that the WBCCI will be able to marshal on for another 50 years. With the increasingly contentious atmosphere of the IBT and national organization politics, I am concerned that the organization may have difficulty making it through another quarter-century. I do, however, suspect that the club will be around as long as my health permits me to continue traveling (I am hoping to be able to travel for an additional 15 years, but suspect that the reality of the situation is more like 5 to 10 years before I will need to suspend traveling).

While I have enjoyed a number of forums rallys, there are so many other benefits offered by the WBCCI that keep drawing me back. Caravans such as the Wagon Wheels Caravan that often precedes the International Rally is an activity that I always look forward to with great anticipation. The International Rallys while interesting and enjoyable are something that I would not expect to see replicated outside of a fairly large organization – even with the costs climbing, my annual trip to the International Rally will be among the last of my travel splurges to be cut from my budget. The Rocky Mountain Vintage Airstream Club Rallys are another of the must-attends on my list that will be among the last activities to be cut from my budget.

I would like to comment on one thing that I have read in a number of posts regarding having a club oriented site administered and moderated by persons not actively involved in the club is not without precedent. Going back to 1995, the predecessor of today’s Vintage Airstream Club website was owned and controlled by an individual who was not a WBCCI/VAC member and may not have been an Airstream owner – however – he was an Airstream enthusiast. I became the first Webmaster for the Vintage Airstream club just prior to the club’s acquisition of the site’s contents and domain name(s) from the site’s creator. In reality, for many organizations, Webmaster and Moderation roles have only recently been closely linked to functions of club members. Given the greater ease of performing the roles of Webmaster or Moderator in today’s environment, I would certainly expect the preference to be that both webmaster and moderator’s would be members in good standing of the club for which the site is operated.

Kevin
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:13 PM   #66
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The Server failed to retrieve the requested data
The godaddy.com server may not be up to the task. here is a link to the doc directly...http://www.wbcci2.org/2010_IBT_Motions.pdf
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:24 PM   #67
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Quote:
"It is pretty easy to read these post now and figure out who have been out and about and actually has met many of these so called stuffed shirts from the more numerous one timers that did not like the look on the face of the voluteer parker and made a u-turn home to never return again."
C'mon, Gary. You're not going to taken very seriously if you accuse others of being judgmental and then immediately commit the same sin yourself. This isn't about "the look on the face of the volunteer parker." It's about fundamental flaws within the WBCCI. You may be a great guy. Ed may be a great guy. But I'm not going to subsidize the travel habits of the International leadership for the privilege of making anyone's acquaintance.

Now, maybe it's just me, but when I hear someone say "a new and 26th motion" related to a recreational/social club... I'm just not feeling it. I don't know what Rob has up his sleeve, but I'm willing to write him a check today just based on what I have received personally in terms of benefits from the VAP. At least if he and Zoe load up the money and run to Mexico, I'll at least feel like I've had some return on the investment.

I'm glad the WBCCI works for some people. Have fun with the whole red numbers/blue beret thing. Really. I'm not going to tell you that you're not having fun in the WBCCI... but extend those of who are nonmembers the same fundamental respect, trust us when we say we're looking for our fun somewhere else.

Rob, rock on.
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:26 PM   #68
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The godaddy.com server may not be up to the task. here is a link to the doc directly...http://www.wbcci2.org/2010_IBT_Motions.pdf
okay - it seems the server is getting crushed. i have posted the motions doc here as well...

http://dwmorrison.com/2010_IBT_Motions.pdf
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:32 PM   #69
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Hey I agree BUT....................

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Ed and Gary,

You're simply being defensive and not listening to the anger and frustration that is out there. The WBCCI has some very real ethical problems.

Ed, I know your position is to ignore the International level and concentrate on the Unit, but that does not make the problem go away.

It is wrong, very wrong, for the WBCCI forums to be run by a private, for profit businessman, and moderated by a non-WBCCI member.
I'm not being defensive nor am I blind to what the WBCCI leadership is doing. The anger and the frustration is justified but not focused, it is letting the IBT win. Take away to fighters and they win and in this case they won. But to whine and cry will not fix the problem, you need to keep after the IBT to do what is right. You can't do that from the outside.

Use your membership to help others get the message. I'll tell you this, most in my Unit will never read this stuff but they will see me and hear what is needed to be addressed while attending our local functions. Working from the inside, getting the Unit to force the issues to the Region, force the Region to address the issues to the International is the way.

Right now my Region leadership is fretting on why would Ed's wife want the detail on expenses from JC, why is Ed asking for the IBT agenda and support docs. They were ALL copied on the emails. They know there is going to be challenges from the WI Unit members, I'll make sure of that! That's the way I think this needs to be addressed, not taking my ball home and not playing anymore.

Forrest I don't like the way the WBCCI is running the forums there, nor do I like the loss of funds or the way the club is managed. I have problems with some other things as well at the International level, the Region, the Unit, the VAC etc, I just choose to work from the inside.

BUT again, to say that the "family values" at a rally are a problem was just too much for me to keep silent about! I still laugh when I read that line there is so much more to focus on as to why not to stay in the club but "Family Values" at a rally YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!!!!!!
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:45 PM   #70
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Mr. Baker and Mr. Yensen, and respective families.

We met becuase of the Airstream Communities but that is not what made us friends. WBCCI, Airstreams, Various Forums, or not, we will remain friends and true to our passions.

I wish you and yours a very Merry Christmas, and I hope that I am fast enough to make it on the WBBB list in January.
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:46 PM   #71
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The godaddy.com server may not be up to the task. here is a link to the doc directly...http://www.wbcci2.org/2010_IBT_Motions.pdf
Please go and take a look at this document, Motion 14 in particular. This is the motion that wants to increase the annual dues from $55.00 to $75.00 in order to balance the budget.

They estimate that there will be a 7% decrease in membership from this increase, to the tune of 445 members. There is no motion put forth that mentions cutting costs.

Where is the responsibility to the rank and file members in this motion? Do they simply not care that 445 members will no longer be in the WBCCI? Shouldn't the board of trustees be doing what they can to retain members rather than looking at them as the colateral damage that will allow them to continue running this ship into the ground for a few years longer?

The general membership of the WBCCI should be up in arms over this! My $55.00 membership did not buy me a subscription to the WBCCI, it bought me a membership! A membership to my club, your club, our club! The desire of the IBT to continue to live "the good life" on the backs of the general membership should outrage each and every member.

There is just so much wrong with the thinking of this motion that I cannot even believe it is going to be set forth and voted on.

Cut costs, add value to the general members, and STOP KILLING MY CLUB.
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:47 PM   #72
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Gary - Where exactly did Roverowner state that any of you did not have family values? I don't think he did... and knowing John, that's not his intent... if anyone knows, and I do - typing is the hardest form of communication to get a point across without angering someone... no voice tones / inflections, no eye contact, etc.. wait until you meet John Gary, you'll really enjoy him as you guys have a ton in common...

And yes, I think Rover Owner's comments are directed to the IBT and the WBCCI current leadership... Fiscal ineptitude? it fits! Stuff Shirts - it fits! Me First attiutude ( Give me my mileage re-imbursement, or give me a balanced budget..... ) - it definately fits!

I see another path to a better destination... and am working on that. Some people say I quit - but that is furthest from the truth. My passion or AirstreamIntoItNess is as strong as ever.. probably more so right now!

History teaches us all and it repeats itself - Time: 1776. There were a group of fellas names John (two actually), Thomas, George, Ben, James, and Alexander that saw a cause worth fighting for - for something better than what was being offered. Look at the result. It took a fight, but I think we are all grateful that they did what they did. They risked alot for taking that chance.

"The states ultimately determined collectively that the British monarchy, by acts of tyranny, could no longer legitimately claim their allegiance. They then united to form one nation, breaking away from the British Empire in July 1776 when the Congress issued the Declaration of Independence, rejecting the monarchy on behalf of the United States of America. "

Well, I'm taking the same chance. I know many, many others feel the same way.

Things are churing right now, and that they must! Without churn and turmoil, nothing happens. There is a goal that I see achievable with the proper steps, strategic planning, with valid assumptions that become facts in order to not step into pitfalls.

If you are on the fence, stay there, don't walk away just yet.... in the end, you'll still be able to:

1. still walk away, or
2. you may join the the status quo (give or keep giving the IBT your money to let them pay their way, have stuffy dinners, pomp and circumstance of ceremonies, expensive catered dinners for the few - all at your expense, not listen to any of the members, or allow ideas that challenge their ways - (sounds like taxation without representation to me)) 3. you'll decide join our group that is against all that and truly enjoy a club that is of the Member, By the Member, and for the member - sound familiar?

There will always be the rebels or revolutionaries, just as there will always be the loyalists or tories. Some will join a cause for something different and some will stay with how things are. It's your choice - we're in America - we have a choice. But if you stay, you must know and realize that you are just feeding the $$$ hungry IBT machine that has no regard on how they spend your hard earned money.

I'm ready to lead it.. I'm not sitting idly by. I just have to get a few things in order and get a few things organized... PM if you're interested in helping me out.

Rob Baker - who sees a much shinier trailer down the road!
Great post, Rob
Can I continue to be a tory spy and contribute to the Revolution from within?

I know roverowner was not suggesting club members have lesser so called family values, I am just extremely suspicious of a discussion when I hear that term come up. And all those kids running around sometimes disturbs my Martini time. KIDDING!

But it maybe could have been better to start this tread off with your last post then open up the Wally bashing parade. It's one thing to hear all the same things all over again but turning off newbie campers to the club idea won't help much down the road with "New" club recruitment.

I don't want to feed or fill up motorhome fuel tanks for the bigwigs either....so we all know something is going to have to change.

Thanks for all your work so far on keeping the vintage voice alive. I have been trying to keep it positive and still have fun. And the club has still been fun for us.

Gary
(That shiny trailer may be ours)
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:58 PM   #73
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OK, the family values thing...

My statement was that I want to be involved in an organization where my values, family values are represented. I'm sure that at every rally, my Wife, my 4 kids, and I would be welcomed with open arms. No question about that.

Where I do see some screwed up values, values that I absolutely do not want to be a part of, is simply found in the fact that 8 out of 26 of the motions set forth for discussion at the Mid-Winter IBT Meeting have to do with grievances, suspensions, and expulsion of members.

What kind of an organization, that is is such poor shape finacially, would spend 30% of it's time discussing how to discipline it's members? No organization that I want to be a part of, that's for sure.
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:06 PM   #74
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8 out of 26 of the motions set forth for discussion at the Mid-Winter IBT Meeting have to do with grievances, suspensions, and expulsion of members.
I am pretty sure you can thank Leo and all of his hard work to make this a better club, for the diciplinary related motions. Certainly is a kick in the ass.

By all measures, and thankfully, Leo has not been diswaded from his efforts.
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:10 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
A list? Okay, here's just a partial list:
1. Get Interantional officers nominated and elected from the floor of the Delegates Meeting.
2. Change certain elements of the WBCCI Constitution to remove some of the IBT's power.
3. Unit Delegates need to become advocates for their Units, not just rubber stamps. This means they must become familiar with what a Delegate is as explained in Roberts Rules, so that they participate actively in the Annual Delegates Meeting.
4. One member, one vote! Members at Large should have a voice.
5. Require Officers at all levels to report to the membership any conflict of interest, such as deep discounts and other perks they have received as a result of their office.
6. Require fiscal responsibility.
7. Require transparency.

Any of these items has been attempted at one time or another, but with little success. The problem isn't a shortage of ideas, the problem is finding a way to implement them.
Specifics, please. What, how, where, when.
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:27 PM   #76
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C'mon, Gary. You're not going to taken very seriously if you accuse others of being judgmental and then immediately commit the same sin yourself. This isn't about "the look on the face of the volunteer parker." It's about fundamental flaws within the WBCCI. You may be a great guy. Ed may be a great guy. But I'm not going to subsidize the travel habits of the International leadership for the privilege of making anyone's acquaintance.

Now, maybe it's just me, but when I hear someone say "a new and 26th motion" related to a recreational/social club... I'm just not feeling it. I don't know what Rob has up his sleeve, but I'm willing to write him a check today just based on what I have received personally in terms of benefits from the VAP. At least if he and Zoe load up the money and run to Mexico, I'll at least feel like I've had some return on the investment.

I'm glad the WBCCI works for some people. Have fun with the whole red numbers/blue beret thing. Really. I'm not going to tell you that you're not having fun in the WBCCI... but extend those of who are nonmembers the same fundamental respect, trust us when we say we're looking for our fun somewhere else.

Rob, rock on.
Yes, while it is true I am a great guy I can sometimes be misunderstood. Or even overstate the case to enhance the story.

I have in fact heard this same parking story as an example of why the club ruined their weekend and shows how difficult it can be to service the public. Or sponsor a rally. Comfirmed club haters from that point. Just think if we treated driving the same way. We could save alota gas.

Like I said, it has been mostly fun to be able to attend wbcci events at the expense of others work to set up the locations, food, fees, music, etc. It is part of my blissful ignorance that this is the first time I have heard of a first or 26th motion also.

How have I missed all of this for this long? we attended a few rallies last year, the Cape Cod Rally in October well worth the dues alone. What part of that subsidized the fat cats in their MOHO's? I have no idea.

Just offering up some positive aspects about the club for future campers.
Rob sez there is a Revolution coming. I'm all for that. Maybe the food will improve. Really, this is the worst part of the club!

And if you are looking for fun somewhere else... why are you so invested in the removal of those big red letters?

Gary
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Old 12-18-2009, 03:02 PM   #77
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Just offering up some positive aspects about the club for future campers.
The positive aspect of the WBCCI are many as most of us know. It is just way more fun to dwell on the negatives. For me personally, I have a great appreciation for the civic mindedness of the WBCCI. As a proud member of the Unit that donated the most food at International - which helped our Region 2 be the biggest giver to the hungry in the Madison area. I think they called it the '2 Ton Challenge'? Aside from feeding the hungry with my church, the WBCCI is the only org I belong to that helps the needy around the country.

Locally, the Watchung NJ Unit has adopted a care facility for un-wed mothers. The womenfolk knit blankets and hats for the little babies. We donate various assundries like diapers, enfamil, and wipes and whatever they shelter needs to care of the newborns.

I know the WBCCI collect a ton of aluminum from which the proceeds are donated. Fitting isn't it? This is done primarily in the form of soda can tabs. Jersey Shorehaven collects them all summer and we bring the tabs from home to Unit events. They eventually make their way to International each year. For me, this is all a wonderful extension of my Airstreaming experience.

There are many positives connected to being a WBCCI member. I think we take a lot of them for granted.
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Old 12-18-2009, 03:17 PM   #78
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The '67 Overlander had two different sets of red numbers of which only ghostly shadows remain. I'm just hoping I can polish the area to nice shine.

As for numbers, I'm a transplant to Maryland. In the county where I work, we have folks who are incredibly proud of saying they are a fourth generation family or a sixth generation family or that they were here to greet the pilgrims or they were here when dinosaurs roamed the earth. In my mind, how long you've been in a place doesn't matter. What you've accomplished in your time does. By producing the VAP, Rob has contributed more to the Airstream community and legacy than many (dare I say most?) WBCCI members with decades more service and more "prestigious" red numbers.

If I'm going to paint or stick something on our coach... it's going to be something with meaning for my wife and me. The Overlander came with blue letters spelling "New York" on the side. Since my wife is a devoted Orioles fan, there was no way those letters were staying on. We haven't decided what, if anything, we'll put where the red letters were... but I don't see it having anything to do with the WBCCI. The Overlander is an integral part of chasing a Quixotic dream, it represents--for us--a separation from the "mad world" of rules, procedures, motions, seconds and recognition by the chair. If we were escaping from prison, Gary, I wouldn't run out and buy striped pajamas.

This isn't about hating, or even disliking the WBCCI. It's about knowing what our Airstream means to us and understanding that the WBCCI won't connect us to that dream. Oh, and I'll include the mad world video so you understand the reference... just in case you're not a Gary Jules fan.

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Old 12-18-2009, 04:00 PM   #79
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Same question I asked!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoverOwner View Post
OK, the family values thing...


What kind of an organization, that is is such poor shape finacially, would spend 30% of it's time discussing how to discipline it's members? No organization that I want to be a part of, that's for sure.
I asked the same on the WBCCI forums, and I will ask the same thing to my Region and Unit Presidents. Now we are on the same page, not sure this is a "value" thing but their efforts are questioned.

As I stated in the WBCCI site, quit wasting time, I think it's 38% of the agenda, on grievances focus on the losses.
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Old 12-18-2009, 04:24 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hampstead38 View Post
The '67 Overlander had two different sets of red numbers of which only ghostly shadows remain. I'm just hoping I can polish the area to nice shine.
I'm hoping my numbers leave ghost marks behind.... so I can say, I too was once a member like my grandfather, until it went under....

"Ghost'd WBCCI numbers - kind of a little for-shadowing"

I agree with you all - the local units are fun.. but for me the principal far outweighs remaining a part of it... I'll still go camping with most of the WDCU.... especially when it's at a campground.... I can't let this get to my kids and their friends....

Still - you as members must ask - Why would anyone want to subsidize $40k for promoting the International.... that's a direct hiding of an additional $40k used for more travel subsidy - yet cleverly hidden / disguised from the members.. maybe they took that from Bernie Madoff's book of how too's!
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