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Old 01-08-2010, 07:22 AM   #501
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I am holding onto my stickers and buttons and waiting to make a mint on selling them on e-bay, when you all are famous in the next decade or so.I guess that will be sometime after they drop the prefex from imfamous.
You will never make money on those - I could flood the market with them I have so many left over.
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Old 01-08-2010, 07:33 AM   #502
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Since you are reflecting.....

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Originally Posted by 62overlander View Post
Funny reflection on this entire experience...
Those people I viewed as family (my former Unit) have with exception of one not reached out to me at all. Just one, "hey Frank, sorry to see you go. We will always camp together, club or no club."I was shocked by that. I had the false pretense that they all valued my participation in the activities of the Unit. Oddly enough, one has even mocked me and the choice I made. However on the flip side, so many total strangers have reached out. The PM's have been very touching from people I have not known before. I thought it would be the other way around. I have learned a great deal from all of this.

I also find it interesting how many use that Wally ecomotion. I guess by hitting that button you are speaking and traveling with the spirit of Mr Byam himself.
Hi Frank
I think if you look at this from your former unit members perspective some may have some hurt feelings about your decision to leave. I referred to this in an earlier post how surprised I was that some of the biggest WB cheerleaders suddenly left and as quickly become detractors. Did you contact your unit friends first to let them know why you were leaving the club? Might be time for some damage control.

Lets not rehash all the means and motives that you have choosen. Remember the Vietnam era General quoted as saying " In order to save the town we had to destroy it". Maybe cutting off the blood supply WILL make all the leaches fall off. We shall see.

I guess it is good that there is a new group of people here sending you support. This could also be just comiserating about their own feelings about the club or in most cases clubs in general. My guess is many are using you as a vehicle for their discontent...and both you and Rob have encouraged this.

Reflections about old friends, new freinds, making a stand and stand up for principals are more difficult. That relationship thing

OK, now I really don't know what I am talking about.

Good luck
Gary
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Old 01-08-2010, 07:55 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by 62overlander View Post
Funny reflection on this entire experience...
Those people I viewed as family (my former Unit) have with exception of one not reached out to me at all. Just one, "hey Frank, sorry to see you go. We will always camp together, club or no club."I was shocked by that. I had the false pretense that they all valued my participation in the activities of the Unit. Oddly enough, one has even mocked me and the choice I made. However on the flip side, so many total strangers have reached out. The PM's have been very touching from people I have not known before. I thought it would be the other way around. I have learned a great deal from all of this.

I also find it interesting how many use that Wally ecomotion. I guess by hitting that button you are speaking and traveling with the spirit of Mr Byam himself.
Well- Frank I don't think it's that the club won't feel the loss of both you and Rob- but rather.... they know you two have your reasons and most simply don't want to get caught up in the political sh*t storm going on here. You can't leave the club all upset and go from gung ho to hell no and expect everyone to reach out to you about it. For most of us- it's just a camping club- I try and get as many people to renew (cause it's my job as membership chair) but once I've been told no then I'm not going to waste time wooing anyone back. You either are okay paying the dues and showing up to whatever rallies fit your schedule or you are choosing to not be a member (not everyone who owns an airstream and isn't in the WBCCI is making a political statement- some just don't feel the need to join a club in order to camp). I'm not going to miss you- cause I'm still going to see you at rallies and such- why bother saying goodbye?

Please don't take any of this the wrong way- just throwing out a perspective here!

As for the he is the creator of Airstream- if one day the club is no longer- I won't stop supporting Wally's history- it's so intertwined with our passion for Aluminum (all but 1 of our trailers is a legacy so that means he personally helped build our trailers)!! Club or no club I am always a supporter of all things Wally!
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Old 01-08-2010, 08:41 AM   #504
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I had the false pretense that they all valued my participation in the activities of the Unit...I have learned a great deal from all of this.
Frank,

You are not being fair with your characterization of the lack of outpouring in your exit from your Unit. Please be honest here - on the Unit forum you stated that you were quitting the club and you publicly requested that the members of your Unit do the same.

The knee-jerk response that came to my mind was - don't let the door hit you in the ass. I can't speak for anyone else in your Unit but from what I have witnessed over the past four years, they mostly all enjoy their WDCU (WBCCI) experience and the notion of ending it in any form of protest wasn't going to happen via a Yahoo group.

Pure speculation, but it was probably your loud exit that left your Unit friends scratching their heads? Which is why you probably haven't heard much from them.

Sorry to lay this on you Frank but your public trashing of the good people of the WDCU here is not acceptable to me. I just could not let this hang out there without comment.

I still really hope we camp together this year. Your company was sorely missed at Myrtle last week.

Your friend,
Dave
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:19 AM   #505
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I awoke this morning to an email from a stranger "saying hang in there, I understand". I have gotten a lot of those in past eight odd days. It put me in strange contemplative mood that probably should had just stayed with myself. Sorry.

My new years resolution was to participate in less politics and more just straight up camping and working on trailers. I need to go about making that a reality. Sorry.

I also made a resolution to not have any expectations of anyone. When you expect something you are always disappointed. I need to go about making that a reality too. Sorry.
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:33 AM   #506
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No "Good-Bye's" Here

Most of you who know me realize that I usually remain low key when it comes to club politics. However, I’m not completely apolitical without an opinion. Other than bits and pieces I’ve heard from fellow WDCU’ers, I’ve paid little attention to this recent firestorm. There have been much more important things in life requiring my attention as of late.

Only this morning in reviewing this thread have I seen the magnitude of emotion centering on this “Good-bye”. I perceive anger, hurt, resistance, sadness, disappointment, and frustration to name a few. I also perceive hope. When stepping back to look objectively, it seems that no matter what camp one is in the survival of what we all believe in is the bottom line. It is the inability of us to respect and accept individual differences that promotes warfare.

Frank, I think April and Dave’s posts said it very well for many WDCU’ers and some of their words represent my feelings as well. Personally, I am saddened that you and Rob have left the club, but I’m certainly not going to trash you for what you believe in or try to tear down anything you want to build. Nor am I going to beg you to come back. I’m all about each individual’s right to make his or her own choice. When you said “Good-bye” I took it to mean to the WBCCI, not to your friends.

Frank, I look forward to camping with you again in June.
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Old 01-08-2010, 02:09 PM   #507
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You didn't really say Good-Bye

Frank,

For me there was never a need to send you or Rob an email saying “Sorry to hear you’re leaving” because you really not! All you guys really are doing is just not paying your dues to the WBCCI/WDCU.

You said in your first post:

“I too am following Robs lead”

Rob later said in a post:

“Any campground where the WDCU goes, we'll be parked with our own reservations a few spots down the row..”

So, if you look at it just right, since most Unit rallies are held at campgrounds (except for CBR) and Rob and you plan to attend those rallies, just parked “a few spots down the row”, you are still getting all the fun of the WBCCI/WDCU without paying your dues to do so!

Saying “Good-Bye WBCCI” is when you don’t plan to ever attend another WBCCI/WDCU rally ever again, not even with “our own reservations a few spots down the row..”

In my eyes, no need to say “Sorry to see you leave” but maybe just what I said to Rob:

Rob, thanks for all you have done to move the WBCCI, VAC, WDCU and Airstreaming as a whole along, and we hope to see you down the road

Others might even say:

“Why do they get to play, but not have to pay?”

That question is for another discussion with the two of you around a campfire at a WBCCI/WDCI rally.
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Old 01-08-2010, 05:16 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by munimula View Post
Frank,

You are not being fair with your characterization of the lack of outpouring in your exit from your Unit. Please be honest here - on the Unit forum you stated that you were quitting the club and you publicly requested that the members of your Unit do the same.

The knee-jerk response that came to my mind was - don't let the door hit you in the ass. I can't speak for anyone else in your Unit but from what I have witnessed over the past four years, they mostly all enjoy their WDCU (WBCCI) experience and the notion of ending it in any form of protest wasn't going to happen via a Yahoo group.

Pure speculation, but it was probably your loud exit that left your Unit friends scratching their heads? Which is why you probably haven't heard much from them.

Sorry to lay this on you Frank but your public trashing of the good people of the WDCU here is not acceptable to me. I just could not let this hang out there without comment.

I still really hope we camp together this year. Your company was sorely missed at Myrtle last week.

Your friend,
Dave
To Rob and Frank, I can appreciate the feelings of frustration but I cannot help overlooking the catalyst was a grievious moderation at WBCCI forums and then a falling in together. I would think more support would be garnered if your actions were done not in reaction to that, but proactively against what you believe is wrong in the WBCCI. The causes did not formerly impell you to question your membership in the WBCCI and WDCU until you got angry with the forum's moderation. Nothing really changed between the time you exited and the time you joined except for being censored. That was your knee jerk response and to expect others to follow in the heat of that anger does not ring true for me.
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Old 01-08-2010, 05:30 PM   #509
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I was wrong and will continue to be.

Thank you everyone that has sent the kind words today and in the past week or so. I hope to see all of you down the road in the very near future.
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Old 01-08-2010, 05:47 PM   #510
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No you are not wrong! Everyone has their point of no return and that is understandable. Mine is and will be the price point of dues for what general membership receives and what MALs pay extra without benefits and representation and is inherently WRONG and discriminatory. I just think more people would follow a lead purposefully launched than emotionally triggered. Nothing wrong with saying enough is enough. IBT should be wising up to multitudes doing just that thing! But formerly you were staunch supporters and because of your great unit experience you did not see why others were so perturbed because you were quite happy in your unit. Then there was your first International experience and then the moderation at WBCCI. Those events did change your view. I'm just saying that before that many of us were trying to explain our discontent to the happy masses and being poo pooed and that most members will not follow suit just because of an individual's experience. The validity of your reaction is not in question. My point was why others were not following suit automatically.
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Old 01-08-2010, 08:57 PM   #511
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Ditto

Quote:
Originally Posted by rideair View Post
Frank,

For me there was never a need to send you or Rob an email saying “Sorry to hear you’re leaving” because you really not! All you guys really are doing is just not paying your dues to the WBCCI/WDCU.

You said in your first post:

“I too am following Robs lead”

Rob later said in a post:

“Any campground where the WDCU goes, we'll be parked with our own reservations a few spots down the row..”

So, if you look at it just right, since most Unit rallies are held at campgrounds (except for CBR) and Rob and you plan to attend those rallies, just parked “a few spots down the row”, you are still getting all the fun of the WBCCI/WDCU without paying your dues to do so!

Saying “Good-Bye WBCCI” is when you don’t plan to ever attend another WBCCI/WDCU rally ever again, not even with “our own reservations a few spots down the row..”

In my eyes, no need to say “Sorry to see you leave” but maybe just what I said to Rob:

Rob, thanks for all you have done to move the WBCCI, VAC, WDCU and Airstreaming as a whole along, and we hope to see you down the road

Others might even say:

“Why do they get to play, but not have to pay?”

That question is for another discussion with the two of you around a campfire at a WBCCI/WDCI rally.

Rob and Frank,
We will always camp with you! See you at WBBB.
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Old 01-09-2010, 03:43 AM   #512
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No you are not wrong! Everyone has their point of no return and that is understandable. Mine is and will be the price point of dues for what general membership receives and what MALs pay extra without benefits and representation and is inherently WRONG and discriminatory. I just think more people would follow a lead purposefully launched than emotionally triggered. Nothing wrong with saying enough is enough. IBT should be wising up to multitudes doing just that thing! But formerly you were staunch supporters and because of your great unit experience you did not see why others were so perturbed because you were quite happy in your unit. Then there was your first International experience and then the moderation at WBCCI. Those events did change your view. I'm just saying that before that many of us were trying to explain our discontent to the happy masses and being poo pooed and that most members will not follow suit just because of an individual's experience. The validity of your reaction is not in question. My point was why others were not following suit automatically.
No Carol, I feel I am in the wrong. My choice was to put the power of my money into action. The WDCU is a great group of people. It was I who left them behind not the other way around. As Dave pointed out, most of them have a very positive experience and find no issues with the powers that be. They have all found a way to make their experiences wonderful. Somethings you see things that can effect you profoundly. The way you look everything after that appears in a different light. I just see the club in a totally different light now.
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Old 01-09-2010, 09:38 AM   #513
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I know that people in WBCCI love their units and the relationships that they have with their fellow WBCCI'ers. But what is happening is that the leadership at the top is strangling the club and what will happen is that this WILL start to filter down to the unit level.


Ask yourself, if that price increase goes through (which I believe is not likely in light of the alternate methods available to balance the budget), how will your unit be affected? How many people will look at that price increase and just drop out. How many people will look for Buddy rallies (where you do not have to be a WBCCI member) to reconnect. How many will opt to start to hold rallies with their friends outside of the umbrella of WBCCI. And in effect, how many will start to discover that they can rally with whomever they like, wherever they like outside of the WBCCI.


In essence, Folks are going to realize that they can exist outside of WBCCI but with the same group of people they have always enjoyed for less money and politics and pomp & circumstance that the WBCCI offers.


Units are in a way isolated from the top to a large extent, They send their money up to the top and frankly, get little in return. But very soon, the top is going to force considerable change on the units and in my view, something is going to give! The relationship between the units and the top reminds me of other seemingly symbiotic partnerships...





The unit has what the customer wants but has to give the “cut” to the top – or else.
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Old 01-09-2010, 09:59 AM   #514
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The unit has what the customer wants but has to give the “cut” to the top – or else.


Or else what?

I dig the pimp/prostitute analogy but there IS a way that our dues money does not have to go to International. Each and every WBCCI unit is an independently registered corporation within their own state. There's NOTHING that says that your corporation can't sign up, as a whole, with any other established club at any time or even try considering going it alone. UNITS are absolutely free to move wherever they want, whenever they want, and the WBCCI has zero say in what they do. I'm sure that the Good Sam Club would be ECSTATIC with some new members.
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Old 01-09-2010, 10:12 AM   #515
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Or else... who knows. In this light, you can see that the leadership truly has only the power we LET them have. And in this light, you can see that it is not the unit that is supporting the top, but the individual member.
And you are also right that this situation is easily dealth with, while still preserving the needs and desires of the individual. Units can indeed go out on their own. But will they? That is the other side of the coin, dependence on the top for support and protection. Except, what support and protection from what? Hmmm - let me think about that a little.
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Old 01-09-2010, 10:57 AM   #516
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I'm sure that the Good Sam Club would be ECSTATIC with some new members.
Don,

I understand the point you are trying to make here about Units walking from the WBCCI in a wholesale manner. Except that Good Sam is not even remotely a viable option. Voicing this is hogwash.

The WBCCI will be fixed inside of the next five years. As mentioned before, once the bank balance shows $zero the club will rise from the ashes in a more fiscally responsible way.

These times will be the lasting legacies of the IBT Presidents. If they can live with their names going down in club history as the do-nothings - so can I. It will offer us plenty of chatter for years to come. I can hear it now - Remember Collier, and Larson, and Collins, and Shafer, and Franklin - all those guys who never took their foot off the accelerator pedal and destroyed the clubs finances in the process???

--Dave
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Old 01-09-2010, 11:17 AM   #517
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The way to effect change is to put pressure that cannot be resisted on the supposedly immovable object. If a number of units said they were going to leave the WBCCI if changes were not made, that might make a difference. Of course, it can't be a bluff. Unit leaders could express to leadership at a meeting they are thinking about suggesting going it alone to their members—hints sometimes work, though this leadership appears pretty stuck in place. But this can't be a bluff either. Hitting a mule over the head with a 2x4 to get his attention may be an applicable analogy for threatening to leave. The free units can have a loose confederation and each will probably attract many new members who refuse to join the WBCCI. Waiting for the organization to collapse financially means there may be nothing to save in 5 years.

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Old 01-09-2010, 11:20 AM   #518
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Or else... who knows. In this light, you can see that the leadership truly has only the power we LET them have. And in this light, you can see that it is not the unit that is supporting the top, but the individual member.
And you are also right that this situation is easily dealth with, while still preserving the needs and desires of the individual. Units can indeed go out on their own. But will they? That is the other side of the coin, dependence on the top for support and protection. Except, what support and protection from what? Hmmm - let me think about that a little.
Renegade units, sign me up! It would be a hoot to travel to alternates in the same rally vacinities in protest and make a splashy appearance at the business meetings! Kind of like anti-whaling sailing. Or would that be sailing whaling?

Gene I don't think we should refuse to join WBCCI, I think we should refuse to recognize the seated leaders and move on with the WBCCI without them! Down with the psychological tether. How much abuse will the member take before they realize the parent does not have their best interests at heart? It's sad to keep looking for validation when you just keep getting plunked in the head. Put the new dues in escrow and get an injuction on the existing club's assets.

How about a "Mutiny on the Mounty" Rally somewhere near Gilette?
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Old 01-09-2010, 11:35 AM   #519
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Renegade units, sign me up! It would be a hoot to travel to alternates in the same rally vacinities in protest and make a splashy appearance at the business meetings! Kind of like anti-whaling sailing. Or would that be sailing whaling?
Oh, a la the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society? I'm kind of big on this kind of "Hayduke-lives" action (and put money where my mouth is on it). That said, the comparison is kind of weak.


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Old 01-09-2010, 11:41 AM   #520
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The WBCCI will be fixed inside of the next five years. As mentioned before, once the bank balance shows $zero the club will rise from the ashes in a more fiscally responsible way.
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that once the bank balance shows zero $$, the club will rise from the ashes like the mythical phoenix.
Doesn't it then logically follow from this statement that sending in due$ will only prolong the club from being "fixed?"
Isn't that what Rob and Frank and John, et al. have been arguing since post #1?

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If they can live with their names going down in club history as the do-nothings - so can I.
I don't even want to know what you mean by that statement.
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