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Old 11-29-2009, 03:00 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
I don't think withholding dues will affect change, although they are losing money year over year there is still a reserve of 1 or 2 million dollars.

(someone can clarify that bank amount)

So it will take years to deplete the kitty.

We need to get changes made sooner
At the deficit rate of $100,000 per year the general fund will last about 8 years. At the deficit rate of $50,000 per year in the International Rally, the rally fund will last about five years.

Not much time to make changes or increase dues.

Bill
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:06 PM   #82
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Ok, Paul or Leo what are the steps needed to make an amendment to the bylaws or are we talking the constitution.

Also what is the time frame

Once we know the steps required we can propose a change(s)
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:14 PM   #83
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I will have to check the by-laws/constitution

I'll have to check, but I would think many of the budget items are part of the "By-Laws" which can be changed by the IBT without a vote from the membership.
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Old 11-29-2009, 07:10 PM   #84
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The OP’s original intent of this thread suggested one way of facilitating a discussion on the future of the club by those who would like to see change.

In this, and many other threads, there continues to be a huge amount of negative effort expended in speculating on ways that will somehow bring the current organization – obviously kicking and screaming – into the 21st century.

If what I read is correct the “status quo camp” and the “change camp” are about as polarized as they can be – meaning the path of change would be, at its best, time consuming – fraught with bitterness and acrimony – take losses along the way – and very likely be followed by a lengthy recovery.

This perhaps suggests there should at least be consideration of an alternative approach – one that might be a little kinder and a little gentler.

Apparently, the WBCCI’s peak membership has dwindled dramatically over time. One interpretation of this might be that the WBCCI has incrementally been burning its legitimacy as a viable club for many owners over many years. An extension of this logic might suggest that, regardless of the time frame, the real numbers of that decline could represent a target for recovery. Now:
  • add to this the difference between the number of Airstreams on the road at the time of WBCCI’s height – and a presumably much larger number of Airstreams today
  • also add to this the number of Airstreamers who remain as existing members of WBCCI but are clearly unhappy.
It would be interesting (necessary) to plug in real numbers – but regardless – the point remains that there are thousands of folks out there who are ripe for an Airstream fellowship experience that is not being provided by WBCCI and for whom WBCCI apparently has no desire to attract.

So.

Does this not represent an opportunity that is screaming for some attention?

Could be.

If WBCCI cannot be changed without considerable pain and effort – then forget it – and begin focusing frustrated energies and resources into breaking-out an alternative organization that will appeal to this lost group immediately – the most there is to lose would be the name (I seem to recall there are a lot of folks who really wouldn’t see that as a loss) and perhaps a direct affiliation with the company (which time would sort out - perhaps quickly).

No matter what the consensus turns out to be – I hope you are successful – and I am sure you will be - but my real hope is that you are successful in my lifetime.

Thanks,


Jay
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Old 11-29-2009, 07:28 PM   #85
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Everything you want to tackle is bylaws. The link/attachment in post #79 has the most simplistic changes that gives the membership access to the bylaws. That has to be passed, club-wide 1st.
Fine but just tell the readers what the steps are please, their units may wish to do the same
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Old 11-29-2009, 07:30 PM   #86
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We can call a "Special Meeting"

In my “old age” I am slipping, I should have known this was in the WBCCI Constitution off the top of my head and for that again, I am sorry.

If one reads the WBCCI Constitution, under Article IX, Sec 2: it reads,

“The Board of Trustees shall have supervision over the financial affairs of the Club including the adoption of a budget, and it shall designate the bank or other depositories in which funds of the Club are to be deposited, and shall designate the persons who shall draw funds there¬upon. The Board of Trustees shall have supervision over all real and personal property of the Club, including the disposal and distribution thereof in the event of the Dissolu¬tion of the International Club or a Unit thereof, except a unit incorporated in another state or province, all within Section 1702.49 of the Ohio Revised Code. It may hold meetings at a time and place designated by the President and special meetings may be called by the President or by eleven (11) members of the Board of Trustees or at the signed request of one thousand (1000) members in good standing. (7/1/86)”

So, if you were to get 10-15 of the largest units calling for a “Special Meeting” to discuss this matter, I think it would put the IBT on notice of they had better get their act together.

Though I would “never” speak for the membership of any unit, we know the “WDCU” has well over 100+ members add to that the “Ontario Unit” which also has over 100+ members (Oh, I think, they have also in the past sent a letter to the IBT asking “What’s going on with this club?”) between those two units alone, you have about 25% of the needed members to sign the request for the meeting.

It “does not” say that all 1000 members have to be present “at” the meeting.

My guess, you start circulating a petition around to the large units, you’d get you 1000 signed request real quick! Maybe in 1986 they saw this coming and knew there would be a time when the masses would have to step-up as a group and ask for change!
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Old 11-29-2009, 08:26 PM   #87
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I as a remote WDCU member would sure like to be able to sign as well!
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Old 11-29-2009, 08:26 PM   #88
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More observations from the peanut gallery...

I'm not going to try to quote-post everything I'm drawing on here, but here's my perspective right now:

A group approaches the IBT with a laundry list of corrections / demands they they want to see made and threaten to "quit the club" if the demands are not met. Scenario 1: IBT listens and says OK. Scenario 2: IBT boots the subordinate units and the new units are now banded together and start a new AS'ing group. Either way, win-win.

A group of existing units just flat-out tells IBT / WBCCI national that they quit. They're not interested in being part of WBCCI as a result of how things continue to be run. Scenario 1: IBT says, "Oh crap" and immediately asks the unit presidents to chat. Scenario 2: IBT says they don't care, good riddance, and the group forms a new AS'ing club. Again, win-win.

A group collects 1000 member signatures (which, sadly, would be 17% of the total membership) and demands a special meeting to talk. Therein one of my previous two paragraphs would transpire, most likely the former and the two possible scenarios would once again be the paths.

Seems to me it's kinda clear. Either we hash up this conversation everytime there's a new grievance filed within the WBCCI or someone goes to Int'l and gets PO'd because of the proceedings, etc. etc or we finally do something about it. There's been great ideas posted here, they just need action. I'm ready to sing my name on the list of 1000. Given my lack of clout within WBCCI or even my unit for that matter, I don't feel I can do much more. But, I'm open to help whereever I can. I just think that presidents of units would make much better signatures on papers to IBT than my signature.

FYI, there's been other major clubs where a large faction didn't like how things were going and branched off. GWRRA and GWTA; the latter is the "new" and "less political" club. Many people were members of both orgs. Both still survive today, to my knowledge. Same with BMWMOA and BMWRA; the latter is the newer and less formal. The former is backed by BMW-USA and again many people are members of both groups. So, it's possible that the WBCCI and a new club would co-exist and that WBCCI would continue and there would be people interested in being members of both.
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Old 11-29-2009, 09:54 PM   #89
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...A group collects 1000 member signatures (which, sadly, would be 17% of the total membership) and demands a special meeting to talk.
A thousand is a pretty ambitious goal. You've got about 30 folks taking part in this thread, and about the same number of total active posters over on SaveWally.
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Old 11-29-2009, 10:41 PM   #90
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Those folks certainly don't sound like the kind of people whose club anyone would want to join. No wonder it's a friends and family plan.
Is there no one part of the IBT that will stand up , speak and try to garner support for what is right? I find it odd that only members speak their mind and that the leadership maintains total silence even with the advent of their constructed forum to protect against attacks. Yes stand up kind of people need to come forward. It's long overdue.
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Old 11-29-2009, 10:42 PM   #91
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In the case of WBCCI and what Paul is talking about here, I don't think the first option or idea is to drop out of the club, but rather to let the leadership know that it simply is not a vocal minority that has serious concerns about the direction the club is going and that a more precipitous action is needed to stop the decline in membership and club funds.

However, if that many people DO put their name to the list of those who are concerned, eventually the club has to listen. And, to lose 1000 members will not help the club in any way - in fact, it will be quite damaging to say the least! Because, if that happens, the cash crunch deepens immediately, and that will likely mean a call for an increase in membership dues which is almost certainly likely to cause another drop in the membership numbers.

In every venue that members have tried to voice concerns, leadership has found a way to ignore those concerns - surveys, polls, votes - whatever - the leadership sees what it wants to see. But 1000 people standing up is quite a powerful statement indeed. I think that it can be done. I think it SHOULD be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atobols View Post
I'm not going to try to quote-post everything I'm drawing on here, but here's my perspective right now:

A group approaches the IBT with a laundry list of corrections / demands they they want to see made and threaten to "quit the club" if the demands are not met. Scenario 1: IBT listens and says OK. Scenario 2: IBT boots the subordinate units and the new units are now banded together and start a new AS'ing group. Either way, win-win.

A group of existing units just flat-out tells IBT / WBCCI national that they quit. They're not interested in being part of WBCCI as a result of how things continue to be run. Scenario 1: IBT says, "Oh crap" and immediately asks the unit presidents to chat. Scenario 2: IBT says they don't care, good riddance, and the group forms a new AS'ing club. Again, win-win.

A group collects 1000 member signatures (which, sadly, would be 17% of the total membership) and demands a special meeting to talk. Therein one of my previous two paragraphs would transpire, most likely the former and the two possible scenarios would once again be the paths.

Seems to me it's kinda clear. Either we hash up this conversation everytime there's a new grievance filed within the WBCCI or someone goes to Int'l and gets PO'd because of the proceedings, etc. etc or we finally do something about it. There's been great ideas posted here, they just need action. I'm ready to sing my name on the list of 1000. Given my lack of clout within WBCCI or even my unit for that matter, I don't feel I can do much more. But, I'm open to help whereever I can. I just think that presidents of units would make much better signatures on papers to IBT than my signature.

FYI, there's been other major clubs where a large faction didn't like how things were going and branched off. GWRRA and GWTA; the latter is the "new" and "less political" club. Many people were members of both orgs. Both still survive today, to my knowledge. Same with BMWMOA and BMWRA; the latter is the newer and less formal. The former is backed by BMW-USA and again many people are members of both groups. So, it's possible that the WBCCI and a new club would co-exist and that WBCCI would continue and there would be people interested in being members of both.
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Old 11-30-2009, 05:12 AM   #92
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No one says it has to be put before them at the WBCCI Gillette International. My guess, it could take up to a year to get the signatures which could be done via a combination of “on-line”, email, paper, etc… A great time would have been during the install rallies of the many units, but that time has past.

Remember, you have the Florida State Rally coming up in February with 400+ units, how many people do you think would be “un-willing” to sign a petition calling for a “special meeting” to calling for the “OVER SPENDING TO STOP”? I can’t think of anyone that would say, “No, I really want the spending to continue”.

Leo, are you sure about the whole meeting agenda thing and who controls it?

I’m sure by now, they already know about this thread or soon will, which is great! I hope they do. If you in your post want them to think we feel, “There’s no way we can get the numbers, they control the meeting, etc..” keep posting that way, and they have won before this thread goes off to the “We need to fix the WBBCI” heap-pile.

We keep pushing forward along with the changes Leo is talking about for a one/two punch!

Stay strong, we’re not going to get this turned around in one month, it may take a year or more. We just need to let the IBT 1st, 2nd or 3rd VP know their cash maybe not be there by the time they become President.

We need to let them know this is “OUR” club just like it is “THEIRS”. And we don’t want them running our half in the ground.
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Old 11-30-2009, 05:24 AM   #93
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A thousand is a pretty ambitious goal. You've got about 30 folks taking part in this thread, and about the same number of total active posters over on SaveWally.
Lynn
1000 signatures are required for a special meeting per WBCCI Constitution, under Article IX, Sec 2 as posted by rideair in post #95 in this thread. It's not a goal number that I made up...it's required if there is to be a special meeting.

As rideair pointed out, there's a couple units with 100+ membership. It's not just 30 people talking here that would like change in the WBCCI. The notification of a movement just has to be brought to their attention. Honestly, if I weren't sitting around on a long holiday weekend with nothing much else to do, I never would have checked out the new posts section of the forums. In doing so, I found this thread and the sub-discussions in other threads. I'm sure there's other forum participants that haven't even been privy to the discussion that would like to participate.
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Old 11-30-2009, 09:41 AM   #94
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We can get a 1000 if we try!

Buttercup,




A couple of questions:
  • Is there a process to have something inserted in to the Vintage Advantage?
  • If someone/group wanted to have a “postcard” size card placed into the VA is that possible?
  • What kind of cost would it be to have a “postcard” mailer printed and placed in the VA?
  • Do you know the cost of “pre-paid” postage for a card like that and is there a charge for only ones sent back? If, one chooses to make it a pre-paid card?
If I remember correctly, the VAC has about 600+ members. Depending on the “OK” from the VAC Leadership and the cost, this might be a great way of getting to over 600+ members real quick! Add to that, the FSR (Florida State Rally) coming up along with some of the larger units, you’re getting to over a 1000 real quick! For that matter, it might be worthwhile to contact “Airstream Life” about the cost of putting in a postcard size insert in that magazine.
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:23 AM   #95
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Apres moi le deluge

"After me the flood" actually said by Jeanne Poisson, Marquise de Pompadour, mistress of Louis XV - though usually attributed to Louis XV.

That story ended in the French Revolution, the guillotine, and then Napoleon Bonaparte. And then... well that wasn't pretty either.

Humans are hardwired to resist change. It's true. The first year of marriage is the most stressful, being in a strange city is stressful, having a new computer system at work is stressful, trusting a new version of Windows is stressful....

The IBT resists change - three reasons
  1. humans are biologically hardwired to resist change
  2. fear of subsequent loss of control
  3. their personal gravy train ends
Now, in their defense... they've "put in their time" and everyone who came before them and put in their time received the same rewards that THEY actually believe they've earned through years of service. It's called "entitlement" and it's the same reason we have some folks who are 4th generation welfare recipients.

Most of us have personally been affected by technological changes - we've beend downsized, rightsized or retrained two or three times because the economy has changed... and we all fight it. Locally, 1500 workers were "blindsided" when the local Ford plant closed - even though rumors were floating 3 years before it happened, NO one had refrained from buying a new house or cut back expenditures, or told their 16 year old that he'd need a summer job and some savings of his own to go to college.

IBT members know that change is coming; they are fighting a rear guard action not caring that next generation will face le deluge. They will succeed as long as the membership at large remains fragmented or indifferent.

Indifference - never underestimate it. Read the Declaration of Independence. One phrase I always liked was the explanation for why they put it in writing: "a decent respect for the opinions of mankind..." The plain fact is that 90% of current WBCCI members are clueless or indifferent to the fact that there IS a problem.

If you have this year's membership book from the WBCCI, there are how many IBT members in it? And how many are "the rest of us"? And of all of those non-IBT WBCCI members - how many of them have ever heard of www.airforums.com? Surprisingly, most of them have NOT! Many have NO idea that the WBCCI is losing tons of money every year. Even if they knew, would they care? I spend 365 days per year in my Airstream, and even though I'm not on the road that often, I do have more opportunities to run into other Airstreamers than most who only use theirs on weekends. I've got to say that 40% or more I've chatted with don't know about either organization. Most are far more interested in Airforums simply because it IS on the internet.

Face facts - I spend $54 (or is it $56? see it's insignificant) per year to belong to the WDCU - I attend one to three rallies per year. Only $1 goes to the local club, the rest is wasted by the IBT. Do I wish the national organization were better run or more progressive? YES, Will I support the WDCU if it decides to withhold the IBT portion of the dues? YES. Will I send money to the WDCU if it wants to mail a detailed explanation of it's decision to every member of the WBCCI, ... uh OK, YES. But, am I prepared to throw up the barricades and go to war... honestly, I'm hoping that it won't come to that. I believe in an axiom an old Navy Seal friend shared with me: "When you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow."

Honestly, LET the IBT wear blue blazers and berets - and tuxedos if they want. Why NOT have a big ass parade at the international if they want. Tradition - FINE. Alternatives - Equally FINE. If we want to affect change let's stick to BIG issues:
  1. financial "mismanagement" that would make Jimmy Hoffa feel right at home
  2. an organizational structure that stifles all change and proves "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely"
The answer to this kind of backward thinking is always the same - economic shock treatment. Nothing else will work. And it will take more than ONE "progressive unit" to launch a coordinated wake up call to the IBT. IMHO, withholding international dues has got to be considered, of course with escrow accounts that are properly audited. If five or six progressive units would hold the IBT financially responsible, and if the membership at large were made aware of the size of the losses - then watch how fast the IBT breaks ranks and swarms over to "let's have reform".

We also need demonstrable "better alternatives." I can only imagine how hard it is to organize something as complex as the International - but we need to do more than "think" or "believe" that it can be done better and less expensively. We need to get something resembling proof that it can be done. Bids from professional event planners with timetables, etc. would be a good place to start. We'd better seriously consider putting together a Mega-Rally of progressive groups that will demonstrate to the WBCCI and espeically the IBT that it can really be done for a lower cost than the international.

Alumapalooza - there's an event being put on by Airstream Corporate - apparently without any input from WBCCI.... Hm. (Wanna bet that it's cheaper for Airstream to "do it" in their own back yard than to go to the International and "sponsor it"?) How can we use that event to our advantage - or is it only going to be attended by the online crowd who abandoned the WBCCI years ago?

Maybe we ought to be talking to Airstream's President about the company's reason for holding Alumapalooza - eh?

Paula Ford
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:47 AM   #96
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I think the easy way to settle this is too WITHHOLD ALL DUES.
WBCCI goes bankrupt, and is disbanned. THEN Start OVER. I think I would join (not really being a JOINER of things) as long as the old guard that is now in charge of spending peoples hard earned money is gone and those who will not listen to the masses are never allowed to hold office again. Just a thought
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:02 PM   #97
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Check your PM...

Paul,

Sent you a PM...


Quote:
Originally Posted by rideair View Post
Buttercup,




A couple of questions:
  • Is there a process to have something inserted in to the Vintage Advantage?
  • If someone/group wanted to have a “postcard” size card placed into the VA is that possible?
  • What kind of cost would it be to have a “postcard” mailer printed and placed in the VA?
  • Do you know the cost of “pre-paid” postage for a card like that and is there a charge for only ones sent back? If, one chooses to make it a pre-paid card?
If I remember correctly, the VAC has about 600+ members. Depending on the “OK” from the VAC Leadership and the cost, this might be a great way of getting to over 600+ members real quick! Add to that, the FSR (Florida State Rally) coming up along with some of the larger units, you’re getting to over a 1000 real quick! For that matter, it might be worthwhile to contact “Airstream Life” about the cost of putting in a postcard size insert in that magazine.
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:45 PM   #98
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This tread has had over 150 hits today alone. I had asked one of the moderators if the counters was per individual member or just gross count of openings. It is gross openings. Even at that there is a following of this tread well beyond those posting to it, 3,500 and counting.

As far as contacting individuals a cost effective way might be to randomly select 500 WBCCI members that have listed their e mail addresses in this years book. Its a quick way to test the waters and maybe get a grievance.

Might just ask them if they are aware of the budget shortfalls and the current attitude of the Board against constructive suggestions.
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:06 PM   #99
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1000+ in "1986" Think about it!!!

HowieE,

With your post, it is time to start asking people to help step-up and let other members know about the problem. I can not go at this alone, nor should I. I need help from people within the different Units and Regions and even Intra-Clubs to help carry the water. We as a group will need members to get the word out, after we get the wording down for a petition, we’ll need members to as people to sign it, etc… and I’m sure many other things along the way.

In many ways, I feel this is even more important than the “Name Change” issue and the “MOHO” issues a few years ago. Because if we keep allowing them to spend into the red, everyone knows a business, non-profit, household, etc… can only do that for so long before the doors must be shut or bankruptcy happens. Take your pick?

I agree with the thought, that we need a clear and concise message to both the members of whom we will need their signature to call the meeting “and” the message to the IBT of the changes of which the membership is calling for, which to me are very much the same.

“Should the membership of the WBCCI stop reimbursements to the IBT/EC7 for travel in the amount of $125,000.00 a year and require the WBCCI International Rally to be a “Self funding Rally and to pay for itself” until the WBCCI once again has a balanced budget?” The answer: “YES”

I’m not saying the above should be the exact wording, but you get my point. Do I understand the need to reimburse some members of the IBT for travel done to find a site for International, sign contracts, etc… YES!! They should be reimbursed for “THAT” travel, but not for travel to go around the country promoting Region, Special Event and the International Rallies!!

I’m sure someone with a much better understanding of the English language could do a much better job as to the wording of what should be put forth than I can.

So to all watching this thread, if you care about your club and don’t mind helping get the word out and asking members to sign a petition, we need your help! I too, am tired of the lack of leadership, I too, am tired of the disconnect between the leadership and the membership, I too, am tired of the beating my head against the wall, but, we have a chance this time to use the WBCCI Constitution and its rules for our side.

I don’t know the membership numbers, but the year Article IX, Section 2 was updated was in “1986”. That year, at Boise, ID “3466” members/trailers were at the WBCCI International Rally. My guess, we had close to 20,000+ members at that time. So, if at “THAT TIME” it took about 5% of the total membership to call a “Special Meeting” the equivalent number today (with a membership of 6,000) would be about “300” members!!! Oh, Yeh, THINK ABOUT IT!!! The 1,000 number came at a time when the WBCCI had “VERY HIGH NUMBERS” in membership!!!

I would even suggest Article IX, Section 2 be changed to what ever the “percentage” a 1000 was of the total membership in 1986!! It was 5% so be it, if it was 10% that’s fine too!
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:17 PM   #100
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Online Petition

I did a Google search for online petitions. There's at least three that appear to be legit and useful and used by others. That being said, I am volunteering myself to set up the online petition and likely coordinate the effort to get the word out (beyond this thread) that the petition exists. There are two things that need to be handled before I can do this, though:

1. Someone with more legal and/or WBCCI bylaws experience than me...is there anything that prevents a petition in online / electronic form from being considered official? I'd hate to go through all the effort only to have someone in the IBT find a loophole that throws all our efforts out.

2. All of the petition sites require a statement for the petition. Once this is set and the petition is created, it cannot be changed as it might alter one's agreement of putting a signature on it. So, I'd like to have some discussion as to a petition statement.

Are we asking for a certain percentage of a laundry list of improvements to be implemented, i.e. 75% of Rob's 26 points? Should we make a "Top 10" and demand 100% of the 10?

What are the consequences? The signers say that they will not renew their WBCCI membership at the next interval? The signers will hold funds in escrow (would be further complicated as it will require the buy-in of an entire unit and/or someone willing to set up an escrow account in the name of all of the signers internationally).

As soon as we agree on the statement and someone can clarify the legality of an online petition, I will set up the petition.

Edit add: I had not read the previous post by Paul before starting my own and hitting the post button. I am in no way trying to step on your toes, Paul. We were both thinking the same thing at the same time. Consider me as your helper.
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