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Old 11-29-2009, 06:23 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by rideair View Post
I would like to suggest a “Closed Door Meeting” to only the “Progressive WBCCI Units” at the next WBCCI International Rally to discuss the future of the club. Much like the IBT has their “private meetings” to discuss the state and future of the club, I think it’s time for the membership of the more progressive units (that are truly the only hope this club has) to meet and discuss how they can help lead the WBCCI out of the forest.

I suggest “only” members of those “progressive” units be allowed to par-take in the meeting. “No” EC, IBT, Regional VP’s or members from other units should be allowed (could be IBT plants). This meeting would not be to discuss “a new club”, but changes that can be brought forth by this group to lobby the IBT to make the needed changes to the club with the understanding, if the changes are not met, that action can/will be taken to remove them from office or the withholding of entire unit dues to the WBCCI.

My guess, many of you at your different unit rallies have already had the discussion of the needed changes around the campfire. This will give you the chance to meet others of like mind from different units and to have this discussion at a much broader/wider level with action plans moving forward.

So, how does one determine “who’s” a progressive unit. I think the list would be easy to some degree, WDCU, NEU, Denver, 4CU, New York Metro, El Camino Real California, and a few others. Or a vote could be taken to “elect” no more than 10 or so units to this meeting. Each of the elected units could send a given amount of people to represent them and their ideas at the meeting. I would also ask that members only come to the meeting if they are truly ready to roll up their sleeves and do the dirty work that will be needed. Don’t show up just to listen, bitch or pile on. Be ready to step-up and take on the work (time) that will be needed to force the changes which are required at this time in our club. We know what the problems are, now we just need to fix them.

I understand there could be many that would love to come and listen, but, like that discussion around the campfire between a few “forward thinking members” it’s not time to open it up to everyone yet.

I can see the headline now in the Blue Beret. “Meeting of progressive Units, Saves the International Rally low numbers with many members showing up for progressive meeting”

It’s time to either “Lead, Follow or Get out of the way”.


Thoughts??
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Old 11-29-2009, 07:08 AM   #62
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A lot of what goes on here isn't going to fly on the WBCCI site. As an example, look what happened on the Airstream Town Hall meeting, it got so bad that Bob Wheeler simply left. There is a fine line between conversation, dialogue and free speech.
Maybe the fact that so many are pissed off is a good indication of trouble. Keeping it civil is a fine concept but hard to do when everything is always sugar coated and our leadership think everything is just fine. As I said earlier it would be great to have this taking place on the WB forums but that is just not possible.

Silver you should just join you seem to have a your feet firmly fixed on the deck of a sinking ship. That way we can both go down together, for I am going down with the ship. I am fortunate though, I have a very well built life raft. Perhaps you will join us around the campfire and experience it.
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Old 11-29-2009, 07:43 AM   #63
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Add me as a person voting against having Greg remain as provider of the WBCCI forums. I have reviewed his personal history (available on the web) and find he is not a very nice person, who is just joined the club at the last moment so that he could used the platform for personal gain. His bulling actions on the forum and against Save Wally and his personal dealings with his foreign customers, tells you he is not a person WBCCI should trust. He failed to renew his membership even this year until he found it was necessary to pay so he could file personal grievances against Tim and Leo on the same day. I do not see why WBCCI management and Charlie Burke can not see the truth about Greg. The only reason I can think of is, some people are getting a kick back from Greg. I have no proof of that, but it is the only excuse that seems to make any sense. Who did Silvertwinkie talk to, and what did he offer as a reward, to become a non-member moderator on the WBCCI forum. Charlie would not allow many members of WBCCI to be moderators, when they applied.

And what does this have to do with anything this thread was originally started for. This whole hijack is simply a way to divert the interest of the concerned members away from the basic issue of what we can do to make the leaders recognize the boat is sinking and they should stop dancing on the deck around the nation wasting the club's money. They have rejecting all member initiatives to improve the member benefits offered by the club. They have rejected all initiatives to make the national programs more attractive to younger working family members. They have rejected all initiatives to reduce to amount of money allotted to them for their Nationwide touring. They have rejected most initiatives to modernize the communications within the club. They fail to participate with the members in any two way communications (even on their own forum). They keep close company and listen to only their International Class of membership friends.
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Old 11-29-2009, 08:02 AM   #64
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back to the topic at hand...

It seems to me that some sort of online collaboration is the way to go here. We use various things with our customers at work all the time as well as have our own preferred internal online meeting system; all have become regular tools and are quite valuable.

Obviously free is best. From poking around on the internet for such software / capability, I think dimdim.com is the best. It's based on open source (which is always a plus in my book) and will allow 20 participants to join in a conf. for free. It says there's a teleconference option as well for those that can't / don't want to participate via computer. Obviously they can't see what's being shared, but at least they can hear the conversation. There's bigger options at dimdim.com as well for larger meetings but of course there's a cost associated.

Since my role at this point regarding governance of any WBCCI unit is none, I don't feel that it's my place to push the issue much more. I hope that someone with enough say picks up the ball here and sets something up and rallies other leaders to band together in the old spirit of coming together to show the interest and desire of a large group in order to sway an existing line of thought which has become stuck in its ways.
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Old 11-29-2009, 09:02 AM   #65
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Staying on topic and defining a next step....
I have read and agree each of the points that Rob has set forth. Now with a list of issues, I think figuring out and defining the next step is crucial. It is one thing to have a few passionate individuals on a forum thread but we need numbers to show how many people we have. Would it be possible or even feasible to have this put out in the Unit news letters, have the members give it a thumbs up or down and to establish representatives for this movement. Or have a sign up list/petition. Maybe I am going too fast and the issues need to be further hashed out.

I just would not want this to become talk. I firmly believe that we need to show that the members are behind us on this even if it was 1000 out of the 6000. We must remind ourselves that a lot of members do not want the controversy, they just want to camp and have their heads in the sand. (As a new member I don't blame them but if the club is to survive we need to act.)
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Old 11-29-2009, 10:50 AM   #66
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Moderators I ask this thread be shutdown

Moderators,

If you could do me the favor, since I started this thread, I’m requesting to “shut it down”. It seems we got a little off topic and though I don't agree with a private person owning the WBCCI forums, it appears somethings said on this thread has already started to appear on other forums. It was not the intent of this thread to start a WBCCI forums, WBCCI bashing thread, just a thread of how to maybe solve the problems of the over spending and lack of leadership with in the WBCCI. Again, we know the problems, "HOW DO WE FORCE THEM TO FIX IT".

I’ll let others solve the problems of the WBCCI.

Thanks!
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Old 11-29-2009, 11:01 AM   #67
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Rather than close the thread, how about just deleting the posts which are off topic?
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Old 11-29-2009, 11:11 AM   #68
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Sometimes, some people, who have a big gun, wish to lead.

Other times, some wish to lead so that they can have the big gun, and then use it.

In either case, the guns should be outlawed.

The club should be run by those that have a genuine interest in helping others enjoy Airstreaming, as it was originally intended.

The club should never be a place to seek power and authority, for any ego, or self serving purpose.

Dictatorship, should not "ever" be associated with the WBCCI.

Leadership, by those that really care is the only way to go.

How to get there, can only be determined by those that are dedicated to the real Airstreaming and all it's associated fun and programs.

It's never easy, to reorganize any club, once it has gone astray, but with a lot of hard work, from a lot of nice dedicated Airstream owners, I believe, it can be done, and with peace and harmony.

Probably a select few would fight the changes, but if the changes are for the betterment of the club and benifits to it's members, then there is no better time to start, than now.

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Old 11-29-2009, 11:19 AM   #69
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Don't really care.

If they want to delete some posts, that's fine, shutdown it down, that's fine too.

As always, whenever you try to discuss anything with the WBCCI or its Leadership, the off-topic, WBCCI bashing, Leadership Bashing, non-members saying the club sucks, I had a bad time at this rally, I hate berets, BLA, Bla, bla, stuff starts "EVERYTIME" with-in the first 25-30 post.

Everything has problems, again, WE KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE!!

HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT FORCING THE NEEDED CHANGES TO FIX THEM!!!

I don't know the RNR, State of Ohio Laws, The Non-Profit laws of mis-managemnt, etc....

I was trying to start a discussion as to "HOW" a group of people could get together and "FORCE" the needed changes before it's too late.

At this point, I'll go back to my hole in the ground.

Thanks,
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Old 11-29-2009, 11:32 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie View Post
Let me also counter some of your fiction with some level of fact:

How can the site be a failure after 6 months? ...
Well, for starters, I won't sign up because I think the moderation is totally out of control. Totally. Out. Of. Control.


[add:]
I like the idea of some out of channel discussion. There seems to be a pretty big disconnect in communications, and worse, it seems as though the officers are actively discouraging the members from communicating among themselves.
Putting it behind closed doors of some sort nullifies the most common objection, that being making the club look bad (although to my mind the 125K does that with no help at all from the members).

I hope you/we (rideair et al) pursue it.
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Old 11-29-2009, 11:42 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by rideair View Post
Moderators,

If you could do me the favor, since I started this thread, I’m requesting to “shut it down”. It seems we got a little off topic and though I don't agree with a private person owning the WBCCI forums, it appears somethings said on this thread has already started to appear on other forums. It was not the intent of this thread to start a WBCCI forums, WBCCI bashing thread, just a thread of how to maybe solve the problems of the over spending and lack of leadership with in the WBCCI. Again, we know the problems, "HOW DO WE FORCE THEM TO FIX IT".

I’ll let others solve the problems of the WBCCI.

Thanks!
This request is profound reminder to posters on this thread about the dangers of late night thread hijackings. Good and thoughtfully discussed topics get sidetracked.


Moderator hat on: Please respond to the ORIGINAL topic of this thread. If you wish to discuss another topic, please begin a new thread.
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Old 11-29-2009, 12:34 PM   #72
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As I follow some of the WBCCI threads, it seems, as I think Paul said in #76, every attempt to improve the organization is thwarted.

Someone described a real attempt to change things as an insurgency. It is. It most likely will get ugly and I suspect a lot of leaders of "progressive" units don't want to go through that brain damage.

The way to do it (briefly) is for a few like minded individuals to work out a list of demands. Rob wrote one, but it is too specific and long to appeal to a fairly large group of progressives. Once a short, more general list is created (no more than 10 following the KISS rule), bring it to the leaders of the most progressive units and get their feedback. Refine the list. This can only be done quietly because a massive town hall will result in just what we have on this thread and no agreed upon list or strategy.

Develop a strategy to go with the list figuring on what to do depending on how things work. It's good to have this figured out so there will be fewer surprises, but there will be surprises.

Once the list is done, bring it to the members of a few progressive units for approval. If 3 or 4 units do not agree to support this, it probably won't go far. Maybe some other units will join the attempt, maybe not. You don't need a majority of WBCCI members to make an impact, a significant minority can do it.

The strategy must include consequences. If the list isn't accepted by the WBCCI leaders, what are you going to do? The only thing I can see is that the units state they will withdraw from the WBCCI if something like the list isn't adopted. You'll need a negotiating team from the insurgent units to work with the WBCCI leadership. This team needs to have a lot of freedom to make agreements. Withdrawing is the same as not renewing membership, except it has the power of numbers and makes much more of an impact. This is the only tactic I can see working. It's drastic and the American revolutionaries took more than a year after Bunker Hill to declare independence—that was the consequence and it had to be followed through once done.

You have to face these possibilities: 1., the insurgent leaders will be grieved and kicked out, 2., the units will have to withdraw from the WBCCI, 3., lawsuits may occur (war chest needed).

I suggest one of the things in the list be direct election of officers by all members by mail or internet without them having to serve for many, many years in lower positions. The system is set up so far as I can tell to perpetuate itself. A lot of nonprofits do this and eventually it prevents change. An open nomination process is also needed or the leaders make sure nominations only go to their clones.

You also need a lawyer who understands all the organic documents that rule the WBCCI and the statutes that apply to it because I am sure those rules can be used in your favor or used to silence you.

Be prepared for the long haul. Good luck.

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Old 11-29-2009, 12:47 PM   #73
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Lightbulb

I know at first blush you may say no can't be done.........but it can

This issue as to how the club is being miss managed can be brought before a Court of law.

Here a judge can and will rule on such issues a Abuse of Power, failure to follow its bylaws and RNR.

Other clubs have done it there is case law on it.

It can be done with a small defense fund to start.
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:03 PM   #74
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At this point, I'll go back to my hole in the ground.

Thanks,
Paul

Before you have this tread removed I would ask you to consider another of Nixon's quotes

"A man is not finished when he is defeated. He is finished when he quits."

You have knowledge of the system that most of us who share your thoughts do not have. We look forward to those with such insight to lead us through this fight.
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:27 PM   #75
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You also need a lawyer who understands all the organic documents that rule the WBCCI and the statutes that apply to it
Do we have a consul that is not on the road and is volunteering ?
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:47 PM   #76
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HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT FORCING THE NEEDED CHANGES TO FIX THEM!!!
Thanks,
To me it seems clearly that hitting them in the pocket book is the only applied force that would be recognized. Not joining and leaving the club gives them more leverage and less opposition to continue timing out the last monies and coercing loyal members into taking up the financial burden of no considerable spending limitations or cuts. The call is always for more members and revenue and never about saving costs except for a few paltry notes about cutting out candidate statements in the BB and charging campgrounds for listing discounts in the yearbook, both extremely bad moves and of infintestimally small economic savings to the club, more of a symbolic sacrifice than a cost saving measure worth the effort to initiate or the earnest effort to truly attempt to curb out of control spending in the club, nor to touch sacred perks long coveted and worked towards by the international officers.

I like the idea of local units putting the international fees into escrow until such time as the IBT meets with unit representatives under neutral and objective arbitration to resolve club issues. Taxation without representation has always been an issue worth acting upon and should be considered seriously in leu of any recognition or action from the leadership of this club to address current issues openly and aggressively or to reflect the serious current financial situation and the climate of the general members' needs and desire towards the future of WBCCI and look forward rather than backward to build the club and survive.

I also would like to encourage those active in the progressive units to start negotiations as a unified front before the meetings of the international rally and show the progressive nature of electronic communication and exhibit a free, no cost, frequently utilized, working environment to highlight the effectiveness of modern media and just how cost effective and productive it can be within the club for conducting business.
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Old 11-29-2009, 02:08 PM   #77
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Individual units holding out international fees probably will end up suspended. I belonged to a telecommunications organization where the "mother ship" decided they would take the dues payments directly rather than the local chapters funding them. We saw it as a way to delay the payments to the individual local organization thus giving the national organization cash flow to stem their losses.

When the change came we refused to sign the document acknowledging the change. The International Board effectively terminated our local chapters affiliation. We stand alone today as an independent local organization, while the "mothership" continues their downward spiral. We thought others would follow along and while we made the move, no other chapter joined our efforts. It parallels some of the WBCCI story where we had an end user organization and had an International staff whose function was to organize and run the annual conference. The local organizations slowly acquiesced their responsibility as end users, allowing the International staff to run amok. The conference began losing money and the International organization started increasing their side of the dues more and more each year, thus putting the squeeze on the local chapters.

I'm not sure if withholding funds would be beneficial unless you really got some commitments from other units to do the same. A lot of folks talk the talk but few are willing to take on the risk and the potential aftermath.

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Old 11-29-2009, 02:11 PM   #78
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I also have no knowlege of past grievance issues but it certainly seems as if there has been an increase of complaints and a huge discrepancy in the resolution of a number of them that there has been one sided proceedings that have served a foregone conclusion before their beginning investigation. That should also be a matter of great concern and prority to be examined to insure proper conduct and procedure has been followed.

EDIT add on... I agree Jack with what you say. The measure hopefully would be universally adopted by all or the majority of units or utilized only by those units sufficiently happy with their local unit benefits to make a stand for expression and secede from the international organization. This is not unlike forming a union to gain combined colateral and force.
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Old 11-29-2009, 02:46 PM   #79
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Thank you soooo much!!!!!

Guys/Gals,

“Thank You” Sooo Much!!! for getting back on topic.

I like “CrawfordGene’s” idea of: (I really like that post, good ideas and a plan)

“Develop a strategy to go with the list figuring on what to do depending on how things work. It's good to have this figured out so there will be fewer surprises, but there will be surprises.”

Along with exactly what we the membership are asking them to do.

From there, what units would be good to contact:
WDCU (100+), 4CU, Denver, New York Metro, Ontario (100+) etc…

Units with the membership numbers or the political clout to help push this forward would be on the list??
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Old 11-29-2009, 02:52 PM   #80
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I don't think withholding dues will affect change, although they are losing money year over year there is still a reserve of 1 or 2 million dollars.

(someone can clarify that bank amount)

So it will take years to deplete the kitty.

We need to get changes made sooner
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