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Old 03-06-2007, 08:23 PM   #161
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"the WBCCI's demise will be blamed on no more class A's being manufactured."

I do exclaim over that. I find that premise further than I can possibly stretch my imagination. With all the varied discussion that has taken place of why the WBCCI is losing popularity I don't think Airstream can be faulted for it. And if that constitutes an example of intolerant biggotry to think so on my part, than I'll eat your hat (beret.)
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:07 PM   #162
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Well, one thing for sure you will never see an opposing viewpoint presented in the BB.
this is not true as anyone who actually reads it should know. It makes me think that "opposing viewpoint" is thought to mean 'flame war' and that polite and civil disagreement is not recognized as having opposing viewpoints.

Quote:
And if that constitutes an example of intolerant biggotry to think so on my part, than I'll eat your hat (beret.)
intolerance is not listening to others; judging the opinions of others without consideration of their thoughts; or even considering the full scope of the issues involved. It is making up one's mind without any consideration or respect for others. It is trying to force others to take polar positions without due consideration or respect for them or the issues involved or the context in which those decisions exist.

Then there is the attacking of the person as is done in assigning that person a symbol (beret) or in symbolic allegation such as "waving the bible' - just look at Carol's emoticon ...

Quote:
You can lecture people to ignore an opposing viewpoint
is itself lecturing and not discussing. It is entirely one way, judgmental, accusatory, and not tolerant of others' in either their views or styles. It does not ask, it tells. It does not describe, it judges.

Quote:
I like the system that we have in our county & state
An association is an entirely different type of organization than a civil government. That is one reason why slogans such as "member's rights" are so meaningless in a voluntary association. In such associations you enter into a voluntary agreement and there is no coercion involved in your doing so such as there is in a civil government.

Quote:
In fact if some had their war
There is only one side fighting a war and using hostility as a weapon. As, for instance
Quote:
Any opposing viewpoint is taken as attack
when the only 'attack' is in just such accusations, when the lack of integrity is in setting out certain groups of people for opposition, when a side is formed and polarities defined, when societies are misrepresented, and when war talk is the vehicle.

There are important issues here. How to encourage informed participation is one mentioned. The criteria by which membership is qualified is another. The problem is that these are drowned out by those eating berets, claiming war, or otherwise throwing a tantrum.

But the real question gets down to the rally example mentioned earlier where people are not welcoming of others. That attitude is very visible here in messages that are challenging others, making false statements, judging others based on personal qualities, using ridicule to denigrate those who appear to be different, and other such uncivil behavior. That creates an identity for the club that, I think, is much more significant than other membership qualification criteria. That identity is the one I have experienced and the one I have seen many testiments in these forums that it their reason for distancing themselves from the Club. We can change that but it will take all of us to support a better standard than often found here.
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:29 PM   #163
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My emoticon is Carol being bashed being called an intolerant bigot for doubting Airstream no longer making motorhomes will be the cause of the demise of the WBCCI. My offer still stands Bryan if I am a bigot, I'll eat your hat.
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:06 AM   #164
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Kicking the dog....

to sum up for those who are trying to comment on the tone of the discourse....

We can afford to disagree. We cannot afford to be disagreeable.

While the traditional values may not suit us now, I would assert that those values are what has gotten us here.

One man's opinion
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:42 AM   #165
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Show me the $$$

If I understand correctly, the WBCCI has about 1.2 million in funds. If they go out of "biz" today that 1.2 million would have to be split up and sent out to the members, 1.2million/6200 members= $193.54. I understand, since I've been a member for 5 years, I would not get the same amount as someone thats been a member for 20years. But, I may get enough to pay for a new set of lights for the 66 Overlander. The WBCCI is not going anywhere, we will have ups and downs, you don't just shutdown a 6000+ member club over night. It will be around even if it only has 1000+. I'm going to wait it out in hopes of some real cash since I did not when the "Power Ball" last night. Even if we lost 250 members per-year, thats 24 years before the lights are turned out. Even if you double that number, that's 12 years.
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Old 03-07-2007, 08:04 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
wouldn't it be nice to be able to allow someone to put an idea on the table without this approach?

Isn't this pre-judgment exactly the same kind of 'attitude' that people have encountered in other unpleasant WBCCI experiences?

It is one thing to disagree, but to do so before you even hear what they say is something to think about.

It is another to express a disagreement with all the exclamation points and finality as well.

IMHO neither serve the WBCCI well but they do support the reputation of this corner of ASF that WBCCI is full of intolerant bigots - and that is not a good thing IMHO.
I think it is you that is showing intolerance. Carol has been perhaps the most civil of those who have expressed a disapproval of this motion that the IBT is proposing.

I have enjoyed reading Carol's post because there is no malice that I have noticed in any of them. Does she voice her opinion that the IBT is wrong...yes. Does she voice her opinion that the IBT is going about this the wrong way...yes. Does she voice her opinion that this motion will have a negative impact on the club...yes. Does she ever call names...I don't recall her doing so. I don't recall her ever doing anything in her post except express her disapproval. She has conducted herself in a most lady-like manner in all of her post. If anything, she has been a voice of reason in all of the hot-tempered debate that has gone on in this and other threads on the subject of SOB's in the club. In fact at the beginning of the thread, I thought she was open to the concept but realized after she attended the mid-winter meeting in January that she actually didn't support it.

I would rethink who you are calling intolerant. I have no problem with you, or anyone else supporting SOB's in the WBCCI. I don't like the idea and will vote against it. Would I try to encourage others to vote against it? Yes. Does that make me intolerant? No. I don't see how it does. It just makes me pro-active. It makes me a concerned member of this club. I may be new to the club, but I didn't join it to be a member of an "any RV" club. I could have joined Good Sam if I wanted that. But I wanted to be a member of an Airstream club and I will vote that way especially so soon after joining.

Go ahead and call me intolerant if you think I am. I deserve it far more than Carol does. Just make sure you go back through this thread and quote examples that you think support your belief that I am.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:05 AM   #167
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Another fine Leipper Lecture

Another fine Leipper Lecture - brings me right back to my school days and Mrs. Staub who may it a point to talk down to the students as if they were the most clueless creatures on the planet. You should use some of that for the leippermanagement.org web site - it's all good stuff.

BTW - Nice twisting of my little spelling error - I mistyped "war" intending to type "way" as in "if they had their way". You very skillfully took the ball and ran it to it's illogical conclusion. Nice work also psychologically analyzing wheel's little cartoon to mean something it most certainly does not. Your capacity for inference is truly impressive.

It seems to me that what you post on these forums is counter to what you post elsewhere on the internet, specifically things like the "Bill of Rights for Members, Provided by Bryan Leipper" where you quote the following members rights:
"The right to have all the facts, alternatives, and consequences
presented openly and the opportunity to discuss every item before voting.
"
and
"The right to full and free discussion of every item presented for a
group decision.
"
or even
"The right to have all the information available to any other member or officer."

In these "rights", it seems to me anyway, that you you take a position to quash the part about free discussion, such as what we attempt to have on these forums. You may not like the words exchanged here or even how they are presented but they are the feelings and responses of the members and prospective members of this club. Despite your best efforts, we still discuss the issue and still come to the same conclusion - it's a bad idea.

In all of those "rights", it seems to me anyway, the WBCCI is negligent. There is little to no opportunity to publish in the same venue that WBCCI uses an opinion which is counter to that of the leadership in general. And yes, we have tried. In the presentations made for example at the FSR, to the best of my knowledge no members were "invited" to offer up the counter positions. I am sure that a few got up and perhaps suggested some displeasure but no formal lengthy discussion. I know for fact that at the winter IBT meeting absolutely no opposing viewpoints were presented, a travesty in my opinion. In any event, I am mostly satisfied to use this venue and that of SaveWally as a medium to getting the opposing viewpoint out to members and prospective members.

Now I already know what you will say - you discuss this at the unit level and vote accordingly, blah, blah, blah. I am reasonably sure that in the discussions held on this issue, opposing viewpoints may not be presented for every single unit that discusses this matter. With the name change issue we heard too many reports where members stated that they were not able to express opinions about the issue. Fortunately, it is not a common situation with most units.

Anyway, Bryan, your viewpoint is interesting to say the least - I usually don't even understand the purpose or meaning of your posts but I am sure it must be my own ignorance holding me back.

Quote:
It will be around even if it only has 1000+. I'm going to wait it out in hopes of some real cash since I did not when the "Power Ball" last night. Even if we lost 250 members per-year, thats 24 years before the lights are turned out. Even if you double that number, that's 12 years.
Paul,
I had to laugh at that - very cleaver thinking. I love having that kind of levity in topics with serious themes. Still, I do believe the WBCCI will not survive as in the situation with the AVION TRAVELCADE CLUB. They simply do not exist anymore. They were overrun with fleetwood trailers of every size and shape. The club had to change the name to FLEETWOOD TRAVELCADE CLUB. In the case of WBCCI, I estimate that a similar thing will happen - and it will lead to the eventual formation of something like the THOR Caravan Club. I estimate that it will only be a few years for the Airstreams to disappear leaving behind a sea of white plastic and fiberglass.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:38 AM   #168
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Question Are 4 Winds MHs really going to take over WBCCI?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttercup
In the case of WBCCI, I estimate that a similar thing will happen - and it will lead to the eventual formation of something like the THOR Caravan Club. I estimate that it will only be a few years for the Airstreams to disappear leaving behind a sea of white plastic and fiberglass.
Buttercup,

I'm 100% with you in opposing this ill-conceived amendment, but I really doubt that WBCCI rallies would rapidly fill up with 4 Winds motorhomes if it were to pass. As thing stands, Airstream produces 1 - 2,000 aluminum trailers every year from whose new owners WBCCI recruits and retains only a small percentage as members. What is going to make 4 Winds MH owners any different?

The idea that opening up the club to non-Airstream owners will increase the membership is a red herring. What WBCCI is going to have to do to survive is figure out how to attract and retain more new members from the Airstream-owning population.

See you down the road,
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:09 AM   #169
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I'm pretty sure most members of the WBCCI join because the club is brand specific. I know I did. Other general RV clubs exist. The WBCCI should not try and compete with them, as it would change the nature and uniqueness of the club and Rallies.
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Old 03-07-2007, 02:02 PM   #170
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I have contacted Jackson Center and offered to write an article expressing the opposing viewpoint. Cindy will send my offer to the committee for their decision. Actually, I have the article basically done. Anyone who would like to see it, and offer constructive comments, can PM me for a copy. Hopefully, with the more open WBCCI, my article will appear.
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Old 03-11-2007, 05:27 AM   #171
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We have just bought our airstream, downsizing from a motorhome. We joined WBCCI because we thought it would be good to travel with other airstream people and learn. A TT is different then a motorhome and I am not sure traveling with or parking with motorhomes is what I want.
Trying to understand what is going on and get the facts is difficult at best.
I don't understand why more airstream people don't join.........there must be a reason. Are they much younger and want different activities?
Are they working people and only have short trips?
or are they just indepent and want no groups.
Until I get to some rallies and talk to more people and until we sell our home and make our move I will not be joining a unit so that does not help.
I understand there is a great difference in the units, maybe that is a issue.?
As a new member this anger, confusion, change and lack of clear information is not what I wanted to find.
As a new member I do not have friends with airstreams.
As a person who is moving, everything will soon be changing for me.
IT would be nice if a airstream group was a airstream group.
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:40 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bina
We have just bought our airstream, downsizing from a motorhome. We joined WBCCI because we thought it would be good to travel with other airstream people and learn. A TT is different then a motorhome and I am not sure traveling with or parking with motorhomes is what I want.
Trying to understand what is going on and get the facts is difficult at best.
I don't understand why more airstream people don't join.........there must be a reason. Are they much younger and want different activities?
Are they working people and only have short trips?
or are they just indepent and want no groups.
Until I get to some rallies and talk to more people and until we sell our home and make our move I will not be joining a unit so that does not help.
I understand there is a great difference in the units, maybe that is a issue.?
As a new member this anger, confusion, change and lack of clear information is not what I wanted to find.
As a new member I do not have friends with airstreams.
As a person who is moving, everything will soon be changing for me.
IT would be nice if a airstream group was a airstream group.
THe real joy of the WBCCI is at the Unit level. If you go camp with different Units you will find the group you'll want to hang out with. Join em and have a ball. They are all diferent. So like Mama said. "Ya gotta shop around."

The National is something that sometimes needs to be coraled and the members will do that. Don't let the National be a factor. The point of the whole organization is camping and having fun.

In several places folks have started new Units to meet their needs.

It's all good. You get out of it what you put in.

Don't forget that if you go on Forum Rallies you'll have fun and meet WBCCI folks and they can help direct you to the Unit that fits also.
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:43 AM   #173
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Good bye to a to the IAM generation,to much politics!

NO,TO MUCH OLD WAYS,TO MANY OLD PEOPLE!

Will it re-invent itself or will it fade away as the Lawrence Welk generation passes on?

It seems like the majority of the WBBCI membership is over 60. The beginning wave of the boomer generation just turned 60.

When you look at other organizations (except for monopolies or government organizations) you usually see an alternative. For example: McDonalds & Burber King, Home Depot & Lowes, Hertz & Avis, etc.

Do you see the "Air" (Airstream Forums) movement becoming an alternative organization to the WBCCI?

Personally, I don't see boomers wearing blue berets. I believe that the WBCCI will continue to contract and maybe stabilize at around 3000 members. I believe that it will take 5 to 10 years before the boomers would be in control of the club and that is too long. I don't begrudge the older generation; it's their club and can run it the way they always have. But to think that the next generation will keep it going as it has been may be shortsighted.

It also seems like the "Air" movement is just beginning (fun rallies, blue numbers, few rules, etc.)

Just wondering how others see the future for airstreaming.

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Old 03-11-2007, 10:00 AM   #174
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Kingfisher

I see the future in the formation of new Units.

In my area there is not a Unit that fits well. So a group of WBCCI and Air forums members are looking into starting a Unit that does fit.

Thankfully the FCU broke the ice and the formation of new Units is not that hard. It only takes ten trailers to have the Unit of your dreams. Go for it.
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Old 03-11-2007, 10:31 AM   #175
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Quote:
We can afford to disagree. We cannot afford to be disagreeable.
Hear! Hear!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnie's Mate
I think it is you that is showing intolerance. Carol has been perhaps the most civil of those who have expressed a disapproval of this motion that the IBT is proposing.
What this condones is accusing others, directly, of criminal behavior in these discussions, casting judgment prior to hearing what someone has to say, challenging others for polar positions that terminates discussion and shows an unwillingness to listen to others or to learn about issues. IMHO, these kinds of behaviors should not be condoned, much less lauded as MM is saying, and should concern us all.

I also think that specific accusations such as in this quote should be properly supported. Unfounded opinions about issues are onee thing, accusations of others are another entirely. If you accuse me of being intolerant, tell me what it is I said that makes you think so. That, at least, allows me to clarify the misperceptions. It is the two way dialog which is criticial to responsible communication.

I really need to have it explained to me why asking for civil discussion is being intolerant. What is it about describing objectionable behavior that is intolerant? What is it about explaining the reasons for one's views that is intolerant?

Quote:
We joined WBCCI because we thought it would be good to travel with other airstream people and learn. A TT is different then a motorhome and I am not sure traveling with or parking with motorhomes is what I want.
The letter in the March BB that was referenced earlier does not touch this.

As I read it, it puts quantity of membership as a priority above any other concern. It cites the monetary issue as a rationale, which I consider irresonsible. I hope jimmickle can provide a response that doesn't get into the kind of irresponsible accusations and theorizing we have seen in these threads or in letters to the WBCCI President that have been posted in this venue recently. The issues are serious and we need to avoid (IMHO) the taint of conspiracy theories, 'us vs them' rhetoric, delving into others' motivations or knowledge or opinion, and otherwise castigating, impugning, or accusing other members who don't agree with us.

From my recollection, WBCCI has put membership quantity above all else for more than ten years. Accomodations have been made to put qualifications above standards in both specification (e.g. the 06 Base Camp compromize) or enforcement (e.g. current grandfathering of ex-Airstreamers).

The BB March 06 BB MoHo report had several presumptions worthy of question:


“The scenario of increasing losses in membership is not attractive.”

But what are the qualifications for membership? What should WBCCI do if members do not meet those qualifications? How are those qualifications pertinent to the organization? Is a smaller organization with high standards better than a large one with loose standards?



“WBCCI” cannot maintain the current level of member support in the face of significant membership losses”

What other factors are involved in maintaining such services? Are the services appropriate for the organization? Are there efficiencies that can be applied? Are there other ways of doing things? What is being done to improve cost effectiveness of service delivery?



“There is a certain amount of fixed cost that cannot be saved below a certain level of dues income.”

Why should this be true? How do other organizations manage it?

“The scenario of increasing losses in membership is not attractive.”

Does this apply if those members do not adhere to the qualifications for membership? Does it apply if the members do not adhere to the standards for member behavior?

Perhaps it is up to the WBCCI to establish an identity that attracts a certain class of membership rather than abandoning its standards to be a Good Sam clone.




“stable membership can postpone dues increases.”

Stable membership aids in planning but should have very little to do with the cost of dues. This again shows a bureaucratic mentality that ignores innovation and business efficiency. As has been lambasted in these forums, there are many ideas for improving efficiency that have not been well considered (and won't be if the hostility of the 'suggesting' continues).

To me, what is important is what is missing in the report. As WBCCI has strayed from its basic identity of the classic style Airstream trailer, what has been the impact on the club? How do we know? What is being done to prioritize the goals and mission of the club and to measure the club activities in regards to them? What do we know about why people join and what attracts people to the club, to its activities, and to full participation? How do we measure strength of membership in ways other than just how many?

To me, the '06 BB letter, while quite civil, also indicates a lack of thinking about the issues involved. Simple rationalizations are tossed out without any support. The fundamental issue is taken to be membership quantity and other, less tangible, issues are ignored. A good response could avoid the avenue MM suggested or other have engaged in as I have described. Rather, it could explain what is missing and point out the shallow and unsupported assumptions made. It could be highly constructive rather than accusatory and destructive. Let us hope that such a goal will drive the debate.
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Old 03-12-2007, 07:39 AM   #176
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Get involved and attend as many rallys as you can. Find the unit that fits your needs. The club begins at the unit level, this is where most people will spend the majority of their time. The experience is different for each and everyone of us. The club has much to offer on many different levels from weekends with your local, major event rallys, as well as caravans taking you all across this beautiful land. There are Airstream parks andcourtesy parking at individual homes. Get to know your club and you will learn and appreciate the many things it has to offer, and the most important thing is to find out what you have to offer the club to make it a better organization. We all have talents and its fun to share them with others.
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Old 03-13-2007, 12:26 PM   #177
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At the unit level

I will not be able to attend the international rally and I wanted to make sure I got to vote on the motorhome issue. Since I was not sure how this was handled in our unit I emailed our unit president. Here is how the correspondence went.

Swampbillies:
Subject: How does voting work in our unit?

Carl,

We are not going to be able to attend the international rally, but I understand there will be a vote on some important issues. Are there delegates that attend the meeting and vote on our behalf? Or do we get to mail in a vote? How does this work?



Thanks!




President Response:
Thanks for being interested in the well being of our club and the international club.

I will be the delegate to the International Board of Trustees at the international rally.

There will be a alternate (usually the president elect) so if there is a reason that I cannot make the meeting, the alternate will vote as directed by the club.

At this time there are not burning issues at the IBT for the club to worry about.

One of the major issues will be the acceptance of four winds motor homes a Thor product as a substitute for the Airstream motor not being manufactured any more.

I am sure at our Clerbrook meeting that we will discuss this issue but I do not see much opposition to this proposal.

So usually if there is a issue that impacts the club it is brought up at the business rally or now will be put out on the e-mail for comment.

Hope this give you some idea of the voting process of our international. It is similar to our electoral college in national election with units represented by their delegate with the will of the club being voted by the delegate.

Regards
Carl & Sandy



SwampBillies:
Carl
I wish that I could attend the meeting at Clermont for the discussion about letting non-airstream units into the WBCCI. Unfortunately, we are not going to be able to attend.
Will you be sending out emails to ask for opinions on this and any other issues that require a vote on our behalf?
Will you be informing us of what that vote will be?



I am awaiting a response. I am totally shocked by the unit level interest in this. Of course it may have something to do with the fact that my unit president owns a motorhome.
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Old 03-13-2007, 12:43 PM   #178
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No burning issues? No opposition?? O.K. Somebody has blinders on.... I'm sorry swamp, but which unit are you in? (you can PM me if you would rather not say in public). I would like to do a little research.
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Old 03-13-2007, 01:22 PM   #179
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It is the Tampa Bay Unit. We are new members and joined this unit because they were the only Florida unit I could find with a website. I was so surprised by this! If it had not been for this forum, I would have had no clue what was happening! Until I went to a rally with all the SOB's! I am very dissappointed. I suppose the search is on for a new unit.
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Old 03-13-2007, 02:11 PM   #180
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1954 25' Cruiser
1990 34.5' Airstream 345
VC Highlands , Nevada
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,149
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Well, I guess that answers that question as to why there would be little opposition or care about the issue. Thanks.
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