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Old 08-28-2008, 02:08 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Ed Emerick View Post

A guy gets suspended (and will not talk or post about it because he will get thrown out of the club) and a number of you want to cripple the club.




No one wants to kill the club, Leo and others say a lot of things with tongue in cheek, understand that first.

If that were the case we wouldn't take the time to post in these threads.

We are looking to have a club that is run by people that are in touch with the members and lose their Lawrence Welk and or elitist ancient attitudes.

Additionally, abide by the bylaws and rules, Bob & Leo tried hard to make the changes they and others felt were needed but were singled out for being open and opinionated. They also dared to run for office off the floor which pissed off a lot of bosses.

In return Bob got suspended. In fact they did it I understand with out giving Bob the required 30 days to reply to the allegations.

How do you spell Kangaroo?

Leo is the 1VP of my unit knowing what he has accomplished for my units members makes me madder than hell for what he's going thru now.

Latter on when the issues become public (if permitted) I promise you will be amazed at how the committee operates.

As I said in the WBCCI forum if General J. Larson and his team don't wake up and set this back to status quo they may very well be sounding the the death kneel of this great club.

Don't let it happen contact your units leaders to contact Jerry Larson, in fact contact him yourself and let your thoughts be known.

He isn't replying to my emails perhaps he will to yours.
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Old 08-28-2008, 02:17 PM   #162
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Who is wearing the black hats in all this? Time and time again the members are frustrated by the leadership giving them no recognition and leadership become obstructionists towards their own members' inititives rather than helping and mentoring them and insultingly bemoan that no one steps up and they exist solely BECAUSE of their hundred more or less volunteers and then follow their own destructive agendas. Then the activists are left holding the wrap from people who don't even know who is who and what is right and what is wrong but it appears someone is making trouble. What a skew and a brainwashing from the higher ups they have swallowed hook line and sinker!

If you think members are trying to kill the club and not save it and you think the club leaders are doing their best then you may want to have another think coming. Now who IS paying attention and keeping some track of the immediate and immediate past and of new and current business? Whatever would make someone think that so many people are outraged over nothing and that they like to complain (except for the witless IBT, that is) and not have fun. But there is a time and a season for everything. Right now the club is in crisis. No one would have to lift a finger to kill the WBCCI that many already consider dead. That noise you are hearing is the sound of reconstruction and preservation!!!!!!!!!!!

I suggest all who want to get out of the kitchen go for their sit and beer break NOW. No need to trouble yourselves reading these threads. This is PURELY voluntary. Don't let anyone mess up you focus or fun activities. You're safe.

I think Bob made his stance and his appeal to fellow leaders and members quite vividly clear. What more do you require of him? Perhaps it's time to follow his couragious lead on our behalf instead of so soon switching over to counting up our personal losses before they are even hatched.

Members, enthusiasts, and units will continue but it is the old order that will fade away, hopefully sooner than later, or at least their archaic and oppressive method of operation. You don't need money to keep your real friends and meet together. Give freely and receive freely. Withholding money might curtail frivelous expenditures and wake up some, however, at least put a crimp on the money tree to see what really matters and the kind of fellowship and recreation Wally truly inspired before the self important bean counters took over.
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Old 08-28-2008, 02:52 PM   #163
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A simple universal rule for organizations--like species--is, "Adapt or die." No human enterprise is immune from this rule, no matter how rich its history or profound its accomplishments. Human history is littered with the corpses of once great and noble undertakings that simply could not adapt fast enough.

In my experience, change happens through crisis. When an organization has become rigid, stale, bureaucractic, rulebound or Byzantine, it usually takes a "life threatening" crisis to motivate change. In some cases, the crisis simply overwhelms the entity, killing it... or the organization withers, dying slowly over the course of years or decades. Every so often, the crisis is enough to bring about the change necessary for the organization to reinvent itself and survive.

The simple fact of the matter is that if the WBCCI is not growing and evolving, then it's dying. The only question is how quickly. Someone posted that the "old men" who run the club aren't going anywhere. Not to put too fine a point on it, but yes, they are... unless they've discovered the secret of immortality.

I'm not posting here because I have any particular agenda. I've just happened to spend most of my adult life trying to help organizations grow, evolve and adapt. In my work, I've seen some wonderful community organizations get old and die. The challenge facing the WBCCI is not that different than one facing local clubs like JayCees, Lion's Clubs, etc. Some groups "get it." They understand that survival requires profound changes... not just adding another page or two to the rulebook. Transformational change is hard for people; it's doubly hard for groups. By all accounts the WBCCI has some great members. I hope for the sake of these folks, the organization can change fast enough.
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Old 08-28-2008, 03:02 PM   #164
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Don't let it happen contact your units leaders to contact Jerry Larson, in fact contact him yourself and let your thoughts be known.
Sorry don't waste your time he stated in an email to others he will not reply to any inquiries .
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Old 08-28-2008, 03:15 PM   #165
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I am not surprised to hear that. From a blanket internet gag order to one chiseled post representing communication nauseated me with the plethora of thank yous over at WBCCI.org. Is he a deer to be enticed out into the open because of timidity? Puleeze! It's about time he posts and does what's required of the office in communication. Still falls short and is only to placate and run rough shot to the masses. As if saying thank you to the ruthless IBT will change their tune and be encouraging to them!
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:06 PM   #166
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Sorry don't waste your time he stated in an email to others he will not reply to any inquiries .
To give credit where credit is due, many of us emailed Jerry Larson last week and received an acknowledgment within the hour. I am sure at this point that he is simply overwhelmed by the number of emails he is receiving. (Hopefully that by itself is telling him something.)

Like all of you, I am disappointed with his formal comment which doesn't really tell us anything we didn't already know, and implies that he can't do anything about it.

But the reality is that the buck stops at the International President, and he has the power to stop this train wreck if he acts promptly. Article V of the bylaws gives him the power to pick the three members of the appeals Hearing Board from the full membership of the IBT, and I am sure he can find three Region Presidents on the IBT who are eager to bring this matter to a halt. At least one of them is publicly saying so.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:28 PM   #167
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Article V of the bylaws gives him the power to pick the three members of the appeals Hearing Board from the full membership of the IBT, and I am sure he can find three Region Presidents on the IBT who are eager to bring this matter to a halt. At least one of them is publicly saying so.
That's correct, but he also can select 3 that will uphold that suspension.
Or 3 that will reinstate Bob T.

He will know that outcome before hand

So the out come will speak volumes for how Jerry wants it to end.

Galvanize the club or see a new one begin
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:05 PM   #168
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(standing ovation)
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:39 PM   #169
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...I just got off the phone with Bob, and you got it wrong. Right now Bob is suspended. That status will change in the coming weeks, and it won't be reinstatement... I'm NOT speaking for Bob, I'm assuming just as soon as he reaches VA and gets that dish up, you'll hear it first hand...
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This is absolutely, fundamentally, completely, postively, thoroughly, and utterly unfair! I wanna know NOW!!!

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Old 08-28-2008, 06:58 PM   #170
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Cool!

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Originally Posted by 65GT View Post
Whoa, whoa, whoa there killer...


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WOW dude, nice attack, rant! Now see about helping improve the club and not KILL it! Your energy just might help us some day but I think I'll see you on the outside looking in, that will help your Unit next year.
Hey I might even be on the outside as well but I was around long enough to serve my Unit and other parts of the club.

Another Kill if you are counting.

I'm waiting for the next attack (rant)
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:06 PM   #171
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We must all keep speaking out and exercising our voices vigorously for inconvienient truths must be acknowledged if we are to have wise government. There can be no suppression or fear. Desperate times call for desperate measures and if we are to be denied recognition then we ought to vote no confidence. Ed, you have chosen to determine who the killers are and I for one, have an honest difference of opinion on that as may many others. Opportunities to deliver this "vote" are what we are now exploring in various ways.

You may be enumerating "kills" but Bob can tell you that enumerating "strikes" is what all landed us in this place now. The difference being you are free to make your observations. Let's send a clear message that freedom of speech should be extended to all.
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:07 PM   #172
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:34 PM   #173
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One of the smartest things I've ever heard said on this forum went something like this:
How long would Airstream last if Toyota, Honda or Nissan started to make RV's?
Boy, that sentence should be a huge wakeup call to the whole RV industry - get smart BEFORE they come after you.


Now I'm going to try to say something just as smart - and it's going to be a reach.
  • An Alternate Rally across the street from the International? I've never met Jerry Larson and I can't know what's in his mind, but if he doesn't react about like Airstream would be to find the local Honda generator factory (12 miles from Airstream) was opening an RV division - then he just wouldn't understand the expression, "Denial is NOT a river in Egypt".
  • Related topic - didn't I read a thread about a week ago saying that AIRSTREAM isn't coming to the International? AIRSTREAM isn't wasting corporate advertising and marketing dollars on the WBCCI? Airstream's bean counters have decided that WBCCI is either already dead or totally irrelavent.
Are we beating a dead horse?

Respectfully, Paula
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:41 PM   #174
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Airstream's infamous question# 24

Airstream has been politely telling our leadership for years that they're doing a poor job of selling this club. Sadly that's only half the truth. The other half is that Airstream has repeatedly told our leadership that Airstream is selling today's trailers to a "different" kind of buyer". For those that need the interpretation that means that today's Airstream buyers aren't interested in the WBCCI.




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Old 08-28-2008, 07:50 PM   #175
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Dear President Larson,

In an effort to help bring forth some administrative updates to the "Disciplinary
Procedures" Article V of the Bylaws, I propose the following for your consideration:

Unless the Executive Committee (EC) makes a finding of probable cause, a complaint alleging a violation of the Rules of Ethics shall be confidential except upon the request of the accused.

An evaluation of a possible violation of the Rules of Ethics by the Ethics & Grievance Committee (E&G) prior to the filing of a complaint shall be confidential except upon the request of the subject of the evaluation.

If the evaluation is confidential, any information supplied to or received from the E&G shall not be disclosed to any third party by a subject of the evaluation, a person contacted for the purpose of obtaining information or by the E&G.

An investigation conducted prior to a probable cause finding shall be confidential except upon the request of the accused. If the investigation is confidential, the allegations in the complaint and any information supplied to or received from the E&G shall not be disclosed during the investigation to any third party by anyone.

Not later than 3 business days after the termination of the investigation, the E&G shall inform the complainant and the accused of its findings and provide them a summary of its reasons for making that finding. The E&G shall publish its finding upon the accused's request with a summary of its reasons for making such finding.

If the EC makes a finding of no probable cause, the complaint and the record of the E&G's investigation shall remain confidential, except upon the request of the accused and except that some or all of the record may be used in subsequent proceedings. No one shall disclose to any third party any information learned from the investigation, including knowledge of the existence of a complaint, which the disclosing party would not otherwise have known. If such a disclosure is made, the EC may, after consultation with the accused if the accused is not the source of the disclosure, publish the EC's finding and a summary of the EC's reasons therefor.

The EC shall make public a finding of probable cause not later than 5 business days after such finding. At such time the entire record of the investigation shall become public, except that the E&G may postpone examination or release of such records for a period not to exceed 14 days for the purpose of reaching a stipulation agreement. Any such stipulation agreement or settlement shall be approved by a majority of those members present and voting.

Respectfully,
Don Collimore, #5399

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Old 08-28-2008, 07:58 PM   #176
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[quote=Ed Emerick;609421]So let me get this straight!

A guy gets suspended

Ed, these are not just any guys, these are members that have been elected by other members, these guys are volunteers that have added depth and stregnth to our club.
They have a vison of where they believe our club should go. Try to keep and open mind, perhaps you may share some of thier ideas. I know that I do.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:04 PM   #177
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Has anyone thought of the possibility that this is a trap? I remember once being told by a captain teaching a course on leadership that the definition of leadership is the ability to "manipulate" people into doing what they don't want to do. A good leader is good at manipulation. I don't agree with that kind of leadership, but that is what is taught both in the military and in business.

Look at their resumes. Larson - MBA, BBA, retired Navy officer. Collier - teacher, sales manager, has "enjoyed a variety of leadership roles in the past 40 years." Beu - BA Psychology, Masters Systems Management, Air Command and Staff College. Hechenswiler - police officer for 34 years. All of these men have had courses in leadership, management and organization.

It's been said in this thread that these are not bad men, just clueless. Really? I don't want to make that assumption. They are educated, experienced, and obviously intelligent. I don't think they are stupid, clueless, naive or any such thing.

Jim Franklin (also former military officer) has perhaps accidently let the cat out of the bag with his comments about terminating the memberships of those deemed to be "unhappy." Do you not think that wasn't discussed in Executive Council before and/or after he made those statements?

Let's say that there is a certain group of leaders in our Club that are frustrated because they've been stymied by a loud vocal group of malcontents. If only those malcontents could somehow be convinced to leave the organization then the balance of voting power might just shift in the favor of those wanting to change the name of the Club, or allow SOB of RV into the club, or whatever. How would you get those trouble makers to leave?

One way would be to wait and see who emerges as their leaders. Leo? Bob? Then give those leaders just enough rope to hang themselves... be patient - they'll do something that will provide the evidence to hang them, and then they'll get kicked out of the Club. By then, those malcontent leaders will have their like-minded followers who will be angry, and outraged by the suspension or expulsion to the point that they will themselves boycott, refuse to pay their dues, organize an alternate rally, and yes, eventually leave the Club all together.

Not all the malcontents need to leave to be successful, just enough to tip the balance of voting power. Then the WBCCI leadership can do what they want with little or no resistance. Sure, there will be a few tough years, because of the loss of memberships, but if it's done now while there is still a pretty good treasury the transition can be made.

Does that sound like a plan? Are you falling for it?
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:40 PM   #178
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Has anyone thought of the possibility that this is a trap?
Yup
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Are you falling for it?
Nope

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Old 08-28-2008, 11:13 PM   #179
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Interesting thought for certain. I don't think anyone thinks the IBT are doddering fools. Clueless, perhaps in the respect that they do not have the same understanding of priorities different from theirs, and developed an appreciation of what is important to many younger or newer members. It's very generational, but the gap does not need to exist. The current problem is the casm has grown to such an extent being left not updated for far too long. The idea that they need not conduct themselves as the members' agents and report and accept accountability to the general membership but rather are in a heightened position of authority and power and can mandate their ideas of what is best for the club without communicating to ascertain needs and modifying is a huge breach and problematic to member retention and satisfaction. Many of their former unit peers are no longer available as a touchstone and they are sequoistered to themselves in the International Club and that is what they know and what fuels their decisions and priorities. They are separate and their experience is no longer equal with the experience that the rest of the WBCCI membership experiences at unit level.

If it was a ploy it will surely backfire because if it is not Leo or Bob or their supporters than there will just be others in time in their place. Let's face it, they broke the mold for the current IBT some time back. Missing an international isn't leaving the club and an alternative rally would probably be lots more fun. But it would have a financial impact on the International Club and not affect the general membership or individual units experience.
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Old 08-29-2008, 12:10 AM   #180
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Thumbs down Why did the chicken cross the road?

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<SNIP>

The current problem is the casm has grown to such an extent being left not updated for far too long. The idea that they need not conduct themselves as the members' agents and report and accept accountability to the general membership but rather are in a heightened position of authority and power and can mandate their ideas of what is best for the club without communicating to ascertain needs and modifying is a huge breach and problematic to member retention and satisfaction.

<SNIP>
Kind of like grandfather said:

"In my day we didn't ask why the chicken crossed the road. Somebody told us the chicken crossed the road, and that was good enough."

Jim
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