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Old 09-17-2008, 12:25 PM   #241
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I don't have a dog in the WBCCI fight, but I want to comment on the whole Machiavellian plot theory. I served in the military and have worked in public and private sectors. The military, public education system and police departments may train a large number of managers, but these organizations are not often the crucibles for leadership. Please understand that I am not denigrating these groups, but the bureacractic imperatives of large organizations tends to punish, rather than reward, genuine leadership.

Ask any career enlisted person a simple question, "Are 'great' officers the rule or the exception?" Ask any public school teacher, "Are 'great' principles the rule or the exception?" Large bureaucracies take a dim view of the qualities that make great leaders... a high tolerance for risk, creativity, flexibility, responsiveness, personal presence, a genuine passion and ability to inspire others, a willingness to "break the rules," etc. In a bureacracy, the inexorable pressure is to work within the system. Leadership is inevitably disruptive and challenging to a system. And bureacracies like disruptions about the same as kids like cod liver oil.

I don't think there is a clever plan or a sinister strategy. I would guess that the WBCCI leadership is simply a group of otherwise successful people who are in a situation where, pardon the overstatment, everything they know is working against them. It's like the quip from the movie, "Men in Black." "Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training."

The question for the WBCCI is simple. Will the management team be able to change enough fast enough to remain viable? Of course, this is pretty much the question for every organization in the 21st century.
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Old 09-17-2008, 12:42 PM   #242
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The question for the WBCCI is simple. Will the management team be able to change enough fast enough to remain viable? Of course, this is pretty much the question for every organization in the 21st century.
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Of course, this is pretty much the question for every organization in the 21st century.
This is indeed the question for the WBCCI as well as every other organization that wishes to survive in the 21st century. But more importantly for the WBCCI the question is, does the IBT want to survive badly enough to change in order to survive? From what we all seem to be seeing, the answer is "no". Until the WBCCI gets fresh leadership, the club will continue to fade until there is nothing left. Reminds me of the image Hollywood has created of the band on the Titanic. They kept on playing while the ship kept on sinking. Their fate was sealed yet there were empty spaces in the life boats.
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:19 PM   #243
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I think the answer lies closer to Hampstead38's view than some sinister plot. That said, either way, leaving OUR club to those who derive their authority from the membership is just plain DUMB.

Minnie's Mate, you are absolutely correct. The organization has done a tremendous job surviving to this point, but at this point, CHANGE is the only answer. Those in power include some supportive of change. If those who support Robert Thompson and Leo Garvey leave the club, there will be no support for change.

I have had a great time in this club and have met fantastic people; not all are AirForums members...hard to believe. If not for the club, I would have missed the opportunity to meet these folks. Some "alternate club" would take a tremendous effort to move forward and we would lose much in the process.

You may not agree with the "old guard" in the club, but they have carried the torch for OUR club (the club belongs to them TOO). In many cases, they have been working for the club for 15, 20 or more years. Maybe that club isn't the club we see in 5, 10 or 15 years and it certainly isn't today's club.

If we want the club to survive and grow, we need those who would be critical and those who will support them. If we become discouraged because change is hard, then we either need to work harder...or give up.

I've decided. I care. I'm staying. I'm voting.

I'm off my soap box. Rant Ended.

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Old 09-21-2008, 07:53 PM   #244
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I too, love the things I do and the people I meet in this club. The challenge for me, is that I am not confident that any change at all can happen with the bosses that rule this club now. It seems to me that they "kill their young"!
They discourage and prevent those that can make a change from getting into the "arena".
Leo Garvey is for change. He tries and tries to make changes thoughtfully and legally. The reaction of the bosses is to allow for his head to be put on the chopping block. He is so talented and they want to toss him!
This is very discouraging to me.
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Old 09-21-2008, 09:21 PM   #245
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I too, love the things I do and the people I meet in this club. The challenge for me, is that I am not confident that any change at all can happen with the bosses that rule this club now. It seems to me that they "kill their young"!
They discourage and prevent those that can make a change from getting into the "arena".
Leo Garvey is for change. He tries and tries to make changes thoughtfully and legally. The reaction of the bosses is to allow for his head to be put on the chopping block. He is so talented and they want to toss him!
This is very discouraging to me.
I agree only to a degree. Yes, the folks at the top are having a time of it. On the other hand, they are willing to let folks at the local level do their own thing and to permit the creation of new and "alternative" units. And, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the local units are where all the action is anyway!


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Old 09-21-2008, 11:58 PM   #246
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Willing? Not the word I would have chosen. Not much they can do to police the units. And all one has do to be content to do their own thing is to pay an additional $55.00 to $75.00 a year directly to them... until they want even more to do their own thing in their unit of the International Club subsidized by all other members.

The International Rally should be something all unit members would enjoy. Suggestions are not embraced and if you want events tailored towards younger working members and not a retirement club stuck in the 50s you will have to get someone into the IBT that will represent you.
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Old 09-22-2008, 03:29 AM   #247
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Suggestions are not embraced and if you want events tailored towards younger working members and not a retirement club stuck in the 50s you will have to get someone into the IBT that will represent you.
That's hard to do, have any ideas?

Please don't say run from the floor
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Old 09-22-2008, 05:40 AM   #248
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I agree only to a degree. Yes, the folks at the top are having a time of it. On the other hand, they are willing to let folks at the local level do their own thing and to permit the creation of new and "alternative" units. And, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the local units are where all the action is anyway!


Lynn
Dear Lynn the point is that our Metro NY unit is fun and STONG inspite of the bosses at the top. We set the example. They are not willing at all. They are trying to CRACK us by demonizing members like Leo. They don't act like leaders at all - more like tyrants! The stregnth of our club is our units.
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Old 09-22-2008, 07:44 AM   #249
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I've been thinking about the international situation by comparing it to my former situation at a major university.

Thing is that there was indeed a situation similar to the IBT at the unversity when I first went there. Very much set in a certain way of doing things. But all of that changed, so that by the time I left, conditions were quite different. It was much more fluid.

So what caused the university administration (upper level as well as department level) to be so fluid in comparison to the IBT, which seems to much more persistent? One candidate to explain the difference is the "hire from without" policy of the university.

"Hire from without" basically means that if you hire a new faculty person, then that person should come from outside the particular university involved. Hence, if the physics department wants to hire a new physics prof, then the new candidate has to have come from some other university. This prevents academic inbreeding. (At the university where I was, you could hire from within, but, as a matter of university policy, the person would never be allowed to direct dissertations, teach doctoral-level classes, and so forth.)

At the upper levels, the policy is not nearly as strict: Upper-level people can come from within or from without, but often enough it's from without, particularly for positions at the highest level.

And there lies the trick, I think. Even though hiring committees can set their own standards for hiring, the "hire from without" policy keeps on bringing in "fresh blood" on a consistent basis. Inbreeding is kept in check; fluidity of policy and administration comes about.

So the questions:

1. Is the lack of a "hire from without" policy a problem for the WBCCI?

2. How could a "hire from without" policy be instituted, if needed? (Here, I'm looking for very specific lines within the current constitution/by-laws that would need to be changed.)


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Old 09-22-2008, 11:44 AM   #250
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Lynn, I tend to agree with Carol. The IBT is willing to let the local units do whatever they want as long as we send in our $55 International dues and keep our mouths shut! I haven't been to an International Rally even though the 2007 rally was less than 150 miles from my home. Why would I want to spend several hundred more dollars to sit quietly and listen to tyrants stuck in a time warp.

Quiet frankly, I'm a member of the WBCCI because there is no alternative and I want to be a member of an Airstream product only club. At the rate things are going though, that may not be enough to keep me a member long enough to see the changes come about that would make me want to be a member. I think the overwhelming majority of folks would probably agree that they would be a member of their local unit if they could do so without being a member of the International.
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Old 09-22-2008, 12:36 PM   #251
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So the questions:

1. Is the lack of a "hire from without" policy a problem for the WBCCI?

2. How could a "hire from without" policy be instituted, if needed? (Here, I'm looking for very specific lines within the current constitution/by-laws that would need to be changed.)


Lynn
Lynn this has been suggested by newer members for several years and I think it's a great idea!!! And the ideas were offered up to the IBT. I think the crux lies in that if you hire out the IBT friends and family plan would be squashed. The way it is run with hundreds of volunteers arriving early for free extended month plus stay and appreciation meals and perks and reembursements to meet their same committee friends and International past officer friends they qualify to embibe freely from the dues that flow like water rather than pursue the most efficient means of running an event. This gives as many as possible a chance to have the advantage with nothing more than a job however incidental it may be or how few hours a week they actually "work" with nothing more than an invite from one of them to join their committee or help out and "volunteer." If business was conducted efficiently and timely online they could not apply for reembursements for travel because they have to travel for the business of being an officer. And that travel can be very much catered and extended to a wide application of what seems like anywhere or place they would like to go, the regions the units, the International, the IBT rally, any special meetings they deem necessary and then vote their desires into acceptance without concerning the general membership to help make any of those decisions! Sure they pay out of pocket plenty too but it would not be necessary, it is their preference to keep the system just as it has been and their way of life. They never leave this International Club after serving. They get to continue to have more sway and control over what they want and reap the benefits. The uproar and upheaval is VERY serious to them should that world they know and have come to expect for the rest of their years be threatened. No joke. They will fight to preserve the control and never gladly relinquish that no matter how good an idea members might have for the good of general membership. We are numbers, just dollars and quite expendable as an individual.

The reason so many are upset and want to get new members into the IBT is that they will never stand for letting the membership take a thing away from their benefits.

Leo and Bob Thompson touched the eyeball and the wrath is out.
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Old 09-22-2008, 12:48 PM   #252
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no offense eubank, but u keep trying to paint a rosy picture on this mess.

like the others are suggesting i don't think the ibt "lets" units do their own thing.

there are PLENTY of examples of the leadership bobble heads trying to limit/impair/hobble or otherwise restrict local unit individuality.

the key for those happy units that IGNORE the ibt, is to also NOT TELL THEM about local variations.

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...How could a "hire from without" policy be instituted, if needed?
having spent a lifetime in academia the ibt comparison is weak,

but READ the pres' message last month in the BB...

they are PROUD of the fact that it takes 15 YEARS to climb that ibt ladder,

and he PROMISES NOT TO USE THE "c" word...

i see no desire OR interest on their part for 'outside-professional' leadership and all the potential GOOD that brings...

cheers
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Old 09-22-2008, 01:19 PM   #253
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no offense eubank, but u keep trying to paint a rosy picture on this mess....cheers 2air'
You see, this is where we'll probably just have to disagree. My view is that the current picture is rosy if you're in a neat local unit, as we are! The only thing that keeps it from being a good rosy picture involves actions by the IBT!

So make sure you're in a local unit that you enjoy!

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Old 09-22-2008, 01:26 PM   #254
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so u really didn't wanna explore the ibt leadership (or lack of it) issues, as your post suggested?

see post #32 for an explanation of this tactic...

i guess this was just another thread BUMP to advertise buying into ONE car on this train wreck.

cheers
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Old 09-22-2008, 01:33 PM   #255
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My view is that the current picture is rosy if you're in a neat local unit, as we are! The only thing that keeps it from being a good rosy picture involves actions by the IBT!

So make sure you're in a local unit that you enjoy!

Lynn

Lynn - We (our unit and others in our region) had a buddy rally this past weekend and 28 rigs showed up. This wasn't really a WBCCI rally and only one rig was not an AS. We have been holding this rally for several years now and there are no rules other than to have a good time together. So I sort of agree with you that on the unit level things are very rosey indeed. But we all know that poop flows down hill. It is because of the WBCCI that we have all become good friends and I do hope the club survives so that we will continue to have the history of the club and the recognition. My AS wouldn't be the same without those big red numbers. I have no doubt though that the club is in trouble. And I also no for a fact that most IBT members and others who chair committes are forum members and read what we post. When I was running for Region Office as the non-chossen candidate the interviewing committe had printed out several of my posts on this forum and tried to use them against me. Well needless to say I did not win the nomination because of my beliefs we needed change. Anyway, if you love your unit, support it and hope the current IBT doesn't destroy 'our' great club.
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Old 09-22-2008, 01:34 PM   #256
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Huh? No comprendo!

Lynn

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so u really didn't wanna explore the ibt leadership (or lack of it) issues, as your post suggested?

see post #32 for an explanation of this tactic...

i guess this was just another thread BUMP to advertise buying into ONE car on this train wreck.

cheers
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Old 09-22-2008, 01:38 PM   #257
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Old 09-22-2008, 01:43 PM   #258
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:08 PM   #259
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When I was running for Region Office as the non-chossen candidate the interviewing committe had printed out several of my posts on this forum and tried to use them against me.
How rude.
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:27 PM   #260
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How rude.

I thought so too, but I did have a polite response for each question. Life goes on!
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