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Old 07-09-2009, 03:23 PM   #121
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Actually, it sounds to me like this forum is providing open communication that may end up resolving some issues and help progress the WBCCI.

I'm of the opinion that nobody is forcing anyone to read or participate. Just cause its at the top of the page doesn't mean you have to click it!

Kinda like NASCAR, I watch the wrecks, but I prefer a good finish.
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Old 07-09-2009, 03:48 PM   #122
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Isn't it time to put this subject to bed? You either want to be in the club or you don't.

John,

That's a lot easier said than done. You have people who love what Wally and his band of merry caravanners did back in the day, and they want that spirit to live on. The problem is that this "club" is now a business, and it's poorly run by the IBT.

I, for one, would love to put 12608 on our rig (Our wedding anniversary) (used to be 8371, Sherri's Birthday) and let people know that I belong to a club that spreads goodwill, and inform Airstream owners, who don't know about the WBCCI, that it's a club worth joining.

I would love to, however I refuse to belong to a club with leadership that misuses dues, does whatever it wants, disregards by-laws, tries to change the name of the club, tries to allow non-Airstream products into the club (as long as they're Thor products).

Shari, noone should have to go through crap, the way you did at Perry; you have way more patience than I.
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Old 07-09-2009, 04:14 PM   #123
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[quote=johntavares1;719523]Isn't it time to put this subject to bed? You either want to be in the club or you don't.[/quote]

Take it or leave. If you don't like it here go home. You are with us or against us.

We need a new club... this one is beyond repair....
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Old 07-09-2009, 04:16 PM   #124
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As I understand it, this year in Madison, at the Board and General Membership Meetings – the new By-Laws which include the Job Descriptions, were voted on and approved by the members. So hopefully, this is a start towards better communication for the future.
Shari,

Thanks for the extensive reply... it makes things much clearer for me.

As I read it, nowhere in the Job descriptions for all officers above the level of regional VAC Representative do they require any efforts and or abilities regarding the general welfare of the membership. Maybe the positions should be renamed to Chief IBT Lackey and 1st Vice IBT Lackey, etc...

Seems some have forgotten that this club is about camping and have let all this reporting up the chain of command to consume their whole existence.

As with missing the forest for the trees, the club, including the IBT has lost it's way.

Our plan is to stay on the true path with the hopes that those not with us will "see what’s over the next hill, and the one after that, and the one after that" ...until they join us on the path that leads to "simply have fun"

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Also for those who have forgotten... this should be the Job Description for ALL club officers (and members)...

Wally Byam's Creed

"In the heart of these words is an entire life's dream. To those of you who find in the promise of these words your promise, I bequeath this creed... my dream belongs to you."

To place the great wide world at your doorstep for you who yearn to travel with all the comforts of home.

To provide a more satisfying, meaningful way of travel that offers complete travel independence, wherever and whenever you choose to go or stay.

To keep alive and make real an enduring promise of high adventure and faraway lands... of rediscovering old places and new interests.

To open a whole world of new experiences... a new dimension in enjoyment where travel adventure and good fellowship are your constant companions.

To encourage clubs and rallies that provide an endless source of friendships, travel fun and personal expressions.

To lead caravans wherever the four winds blow... over twinkling boulevards, across trackless deserts... to the traveled and untraveled corners of the earth.

To play some part in promoting international goodwill and understanding among the peoples of the world through person-to-person contact.

To refine and perfect our product by continuous travel-testing over the highways and byways of the world.

To strive endlessly to stir the venturesome spirit that moves you to follow a rainbow to its end... and thus make your travel dreams come true.


- Wally Byam


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Old 07-09-2009, 04:22 PM   #125
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As with missing the forest for the trees, the club, including the IBT has lost it's way.
Sounds more like missing the forest for all the pavement

*dives for cover and popcorn*
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Old 07-09-2009, 06:12 PM   #126
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[QUOTE=Ed Emerick;639218]then don't pay your dues and move on./QUOTE]

I went to Madison jung ho. Just ask anyone that knows me. I personally asked everyone in my unit and many in other units to join us going to International. I told everyone that our club needed their support. I have often been accused of being too into it. My impression of the VAC was that it was free of the politics and infighting that is thought of as status quo in the rest of the club. Unfortunately that was a false impression. I now feel that Ed is a very wise man. I am going to do exactly as he says.

I will not bore any of you anymore with my whining. I am going back to camping and having fun. If any you are inclined to experience how simple it can be stop on by to one of our rallies.
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Old 07-12-2009, 09:06 PM   #127
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[quote=62overlander;719614]
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then don't pay your dues and move on./QUOTE]

I went to Madison jung ho. Just ask anyone that knows me. I personally asked everyone in my unit and many in other units to join us going to International. I told everyone that our club needed their support. I have often been accused of being too into it. My impression of the VAC was that it was free of the politics and infighting that is thought of as status quo in the rest of the club. Unfortunately that was a false impression. I now feel that Ed is a very wise man. I am going to do exactly as he says.

I will not bore any of you anymore with my whining. I am going back to camping and having fun. If any you are inclined to experience how simple it can be stop on by to one of our rallies.
And another true believer bites the dusk. Good job IBT...
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Old 07-12-2009, 09:33 PM   #128
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And another true believer bites the dusk. Good job IBT...
The IBT didn't have anything to do with this particular food fight. I would say it was more a matter of unrealistic expectations about the International.
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Old 07-13-2009, 05:30 AM   #129
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The IBT didn't have anything to do with this particular food fight. I would say it was more a matter of unrealistic expectations about the International.
Frank's expectations were realistic... but he is an Idealist and as always, his hopes were high. In my mind, it's all about the IBT... the focus of the club has traveled a different road than the focus of it's membership.

Today's International is not really a rally, it's a Business Meeting and we all know how fun those are. Most of us don't care to use our valuable vacation time to attend nothing more than a Business Meeting... which is why as long as they place International attendance on the list of requirements for holding office, you won't see things changing for the better.
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Old 07-13-2009, 10:44 AM   #130
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...

Today's International is not really a rally, it's a Business Meeting and we all know how fun those are. Most of us don't care to use our valuable vacation time to attend nothing more than a Business Meeting... which is why as long as they place International attendance on the list of requirements for holding office, you won't see things changing for the better.
Steve,

The duties of a club's officers it to manage the business of the club. If the officers do not or can not attend the business meetings, how can they manage the business? If the officers attend to the business, then the rest of us can enjoy the purpose of the club.

Bill
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Old 07-14-2009, 04:49 AM   #131
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begs the question...

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Steve,

The duties of a club's officers it to manage the business of the club. If the officers do not or can not attend the business meetings, how can they manage the business? If the officers attend to the business, then the rest of us can enjoy the purpose of the club.

Bill
Bill, why assume that officers need to travel thousands of miles and rent million dollar facilities for the club to conduct it's business meetings? For years now, technology has allowed folks from all over the world to "connect" and make decisions. In our own Vintage Airstream realm, the three guys that do the Vintage Airstream Podcast, have done so without the need to be sitting in the same room. They did the first three years of bi-weekly shows without having ever met face to face.

How about if the club thinks about conducting the business meetings in a manner that includes those of us who do not have unlimited time to participate... and leave the travel and the rallies for the purpose of, as PeeWee says they were meant to be, "to simply have fun"

Those officers should get to have some fun too.
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Old 07-14-2009, 07:47 AM   #132
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I love unit rallies!

I moderately enjoy region rallies mainly because I see friends from other units that I do not see otherwise.

I have attended four International rallies to date. I really can not say that I very much enjoyed any one of them for the rally itself. I did enjoy the travel and exploring the area and spending time with some folks that I see only at those rallies.

I think that the time has passed for the international rally as it is presently defined. The $40 to $60,000 projected loss this year should be the first clue. Add that to the $81,000 projected general budget deficit and the WBCCI, as we know it, can not last very long. The saddest thing is listening to the IBT sessions and realizing that there is not one concrete step being made to fix the problems.
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:11 PM   #133
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So it costs $55 per year to join and WBCCI has 5,000 or 6,000 members. The website doesn't say anywhere I could find how many members there are. Annual membership income is from $275,000 to $330,000. My impression is that the Club is losing money and members steadily. John's post indicates an annual loss of $121,000 to $141,000.

The Club must have a substantial reserve it is drawing on to continue this way because no bank would lend to a nonprofit with no hard assets and a declining membership.

Nonprofits are encouraged to have a reserve fund of at least 6 months expenses. The purpose is for unexpected losses, lawsuits, and capital outlays necessary to improve the organization. Organizations heavily dependent on contributions and grants use reserves when such income drops dramatically; I don't think the WBCCI receives that kind of income. Using reserves to cover chronic deficits is unwise. Reserves are to be used to turn around an organization and to cover immediate expenses until expenses are cut to the present reality. Provision should be made to repay reserves as well. A budget adjustment is hard for nonprofits to make because it means cutting staff (usually the highest organizational expense and the most difficult to cut) and other things such as publications, telephones, computer services, etc.

I have been through this with a nonprofit and the process is an awful one to experience. In that organization's case, the main problem was loss of grants in a difficult economy. Membership was also declining. It meant staff cuts, primarily. The board avoided reality far too long, making the situation worse. I saw decisions being based on hope and myth rather than the cold objectivity of numbers. My efforts to get them to recognize the importance of the internet in contemporary organizations fell on deaf ears. This was an organization promoting change, but it could not change itself. My membership on the board felt like I was pushing a ball of sludge uphill, but instead of rolling back every time just before the summit, it was a blob that just kept enveloping me and anyone else trying to promote change and then sliming it's way downhill behind me. You can't lead if no one will follow.

I can't predict what will happen to the WBCCI (or that other organization for that matter). I do know you can't run perpetual deficits, you can't spend reserve funds indefinitely, and change comes ever so slowly. Those in power will subvert change in ways it's hard to anticipate, although you can anticipate they will resist with all their power. In the end, deficit spending will force change when the reserves run out, but the question will be what that change is—raising dues, cutting staff, board perks, rallies? The longer it's put off, the worse it'll be, but change will come. What the quality of that change is the long term question.

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Old 07-14-2009, 10:05 PM   #134
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Bill, why assume that officers need to travel thousands of miles and rent million dollar facilities for the club to conduct it's business meetings? For years now, technology has allowed folks from all over the world to "connect" and make decisions. In our own Vintage Airstream realm, the three guys that do the Vintage Airstream Podcast, have done so without the need to be sitting in the same room. They did the first three years of bi-weekly shows without having ever met face to face.

How about if the club thinks about conducting the business meetings in a manner that includes those of us who do not have unlimited time to participate... and leave the travel and the rallies for the purpose of, as PeeWee says they were meant to be, "to simply have fun"

Those officers should get to have some fun too.
Steve,

I thought that we were discussing the VAC officers and the need for the VAC officers to attend the International Rally. I will be the first to agree that it is not a fun rally but a business meeting, and I tell that to everyone who asks me about the International. I also tell them that, in my opinion, the best part is the VAC parade, VAC parking and seeing and meeting members who we have only know as writing on a computer monitor.

Although virtual meetings may work in some cases, there is no substitution for "face time". (Just look at the issues with the 2nd VAC VP this year in that, it appears, the decisions made in Bozeman were not adequately explained to him. This may have been avoided in face to face discussion.) We certainly don't want the meetings to be held in such a way that the members are unable to listen and participate.

Comparing what should be similar to a public company conference call (the IBT and delegates seminars and meetings) to a pod cast is not a valid comparison, in my opinion. I believe that the best comparison of the International Rally to the business world is the annual stockholders meeting. How many of those are virtual?

Bill
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Old 07-15-2009, 08:46 AM   #135
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Thumbs up Good Discussion

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Steve, I thought that we were discussing the VAC officers and the need for the VAC officers to attend the International Rally.
We are… my point is, that if the business of the club was conducted in such a way that would not require attendance at the International, we would see more folks willing to participate in the Governance.

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I will be the first to agree that it is not a fun rally but a business meeting, and I tell that to everyone who asks me about the International. I also tell them that, in my opinion, the best part is the VAC parade, VAC parking and seeing and meeting members who we have only know as writing on a computer monitor.
Why would anyone want their clubs premier event of the year be one that the membership says “is not a fun rally but a business meeting.” It should be an event that promotes and showcases the best the club has to offer.

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Although virtual meetings may work in some cases, there is no substitution for "face time". (Just look at the issues with the 2nd VAC VP this year in that, it appears, the decisions made in Bozeman were not adequately explained to him. This may have been avoided in face to face discussion.)
My take is the exact opposite. I think that if ALL discussions were transparent and recorded to be viewed and reviewed at anytime we would have avoided this miscommunication. It was due to the fact that decisions were made in private face to face conversations held with only part of the concerned parties in attendance that we ended up with the circumstances we did. Not to mention the fact that the by-laws were completely side-stepped.


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Comparing what should be similar to a public company conference call (the IBT and delegates seminars and meetings) to a pod cast is not a valid comparison, in my opinion. I believe that the best comparison of the International Rally to the business world is the annual stockholders meeting. How many of those are virtual? Bill
I didn’t offer it as a comparison, but only as an example of the technology available. These days, most Governmental bodies offer live and/or delayed viewing of their regular proceedings. For a club whose membership is spread across all of North America, I think to not take advantage of present technology to facilitate wider participation in Governance of the club would be detrimental to its future.

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I believe that the best comparison of the International Rally to the business world is the annual stockholders meeting. How many of those are virtual?
I would agree that the scale may be similar, but most stockholders do not actively participate in the activities of the Corporation. In the case of the WBCCI, participation of the “stockholders” is what we are all about.

-----------

I appreciate your willingness to put yourself forward to discuss these issues in a public forum for all to see and participate. Some may see these comments as being critical of the club and use them as a reason to not join. I offer them as my opinions regarding what is needed to focus our efforts and resources on what makes this club great – its members.

Bill, as you wrote… “I tell that to everyone who asks… the best part is… seeing and meeting members.” – I agree!
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Old 07-17-2009, 05:52 PM   #136
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If you require attendence at a series of rallies held in various parts of the country at varied times of the year, you are effectively reserving all offices for the retired.

There is nothing wrong with being retired, and being retired should not disqualify one from office. But should it be the pre-eminant qualification?
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Old 07-17-2009, 06:12 PM   #137
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If you require attendence at a series of rallies held in various parts of the country at varied times of the year, you are effectively reserving all offices for the retired.

There is nothing wrong with being retired, and being retired should not disqualify one from office. But should it be the pre-eminant qualification?

Redshed,

The VAC requires that certain officers attend the International Rally. Which is held only once each year. The location is different each year.

Bill
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Old 07-17-2009, 06:16 PM   #138
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If you require attendence at a series of rallies held in various parts of the country at varied times of the year, you are effectively reserving all offices for the retired.

There is nothing wrong with being retired, and being retired should not disqualify one from office. But should it be the pre-eminant qualification?
It's true that being retired does free one (or at least some) for service in not-for-profit work, but it's also true that virtuality is not some automatic cure for the non-retired. My staffpeople used to work tirelessly to try to set up meetings (virtual or otherwise) with different people within the same university, and people's schedules would often delay things for days or weeks. Now imagine arranging for a virtual meeting with people from all over the continent with all kinds of different demands on their time (and all kinds of technology available to them, from primitive to advanced). I wouldn't want to be the one to make the arrangements!


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Old 07-17-2009, 06:17 PM   #139
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Redshed,

The VAC requires that certain officers attend the International Rally. Which is held only once each year. The location is different each year.

Bill
Oh I understand that. Had understood that WBCCI nominating cmmte expected candidates to attend International for several years running, as well as the midwinter meeting. Perhaps I have it wrong.

Thanks, though.
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Old 07-17-2009, 06:49 PM   #140
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...it's also true that virtuality is not some automatic cure for the non-retired....

Lynn
In all liklihood, it is the only cure.
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