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Old 04-26-2011, 02:13 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Tom is this what you were getting at?

a. International President $8,625.00
b. International First Vice-President $5,250.00
c. International Second Vice-President $5,025.00
d. International Third Vice President $4,875.00
e. International Recording Secretary $2,665.00
f. International Treasurer $2,660.00
g. Immediate Past President $300.00
h. Region President For the year 2010-2011, $1,178.00. x 12 = $14,136
i. Region Vice Presidents For the year 2010-2011, $612.00. x 12 = $7,344

Current budget $50,880

In the Revised Constitution those costs would decrease immediately
no 3vp $4,875 and less regions/areas about 8246/4284 or $17,405

Reducing the travel as it is now totaling $50,880 to $33,475 or 35%

Vote no it stays at 50K


.
I seem to recall that several regional presidents mentioned that they did not take their full allotments but instead filed only modest expenses covering their actual expenditures so they had already run underbudget. I believe this was stated when the discussion of balancing the budget was "applied" towards region presidents by the EC without RP representation or authorization. It seemed a source of real contention during the simulcast meeting.

In regard to club expenses, what are those amounts that you have listed, flat dispersement or a cap? How much travel and rally fees does that include if any? Officers are able to submit expense reports for every "working" destination they choose to attend, correct? Thought to what is necessary business might be outlined and savings could come in the way of not engaging a caravan to the proposed international site but relying upon local RPs to do the legwork, just for one instance. Do others benefit from travel and rally expenses such as those committees needing to travel to the IBT and International rallies and various units? It would appear whomever has the say to deem something as necessary or as a club business related expense truly controls the spending. Choosing a plethora of early friends and workers to attend rallies an extra month without additional charge can also be problematic to limited resources though designed as recognition and a reward system. However it should not belong to the EC to act as gracious hosts in extending privilege at club members' expense with resulting higher rally and dues fees.

I worry too that without a delegate system in place even fewer will have a part in club business. Business may be limited to those that are in attendence, and not the panacea achievement of every member involvement with 1M1V in real life situation. For that matter an entire replacement constitution was forged by the appointment from the IP of 4-5 people and that is the total involvement of the mass undertaking put before the club presently. To me that reflects less involvement and input and certainly not more. Handshake deals outside the mainstream without summoning volunteers or extending the privilege to any member who would have liked to have served in that capacity were not solicited by the present leadership. There were specific reasons that those selected were chosen. The same reward system that is heavily used within the WBCCI is not only to reward a job well done but also to insure prompt service, as in a tip or compensation and in this case the dissolution of DW was the price given for the benefit received. Of course I am skeptical of that sort of representation and of the presumptive power that sanctioned its introduction.
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Old 04-26-2011, 02:33 PM   #222
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Some of the travel and thus the expenses are required by the current bylaws. My recollection is the region president is supposed to visit each unit annually. Simply changing that to read "as necessary" would save money. While they are always welcome they certainly aren't "necessary" for a swearing in ceremony for an example, The last financial I looked at showed our region president used all his.
Certainly reimbursement for necessary travel is reasonable. I think a more efficient approach would result in less travel expense
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Old 04-26-2011, 02:38 PM   #223
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Do we have a policy manual now? What is the savings if we just move some of the Bylaws over to a new "policy manual"? Who gets to write and approve the policy manual? How is the policy manual any different than the Bylaws?
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Old 04-26-2011, 03:46 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post

In regard to club expenses, what are those amounts that you have listed, flat dispersement or a cap? How much travel and rally fees does that include if any?
But your concern is not that a $17K saving that can be had, but you address incidental costs.


Quote:
I worry too that without a delegate system in place even fewer will have a part in club business.
How do you come to that theory, delegates don't go to the Int with 100% of their unit members votes in hand, it is perhaps 25-40% at best to begin with.
let's say the unit votes equally on both sides of the issue, how does the delegate vote with a spit vote?
Lets say the delegate doesn't go,
Lets say many are going for the first time and are unfamiliar with procedures,
Lets say they don't understand the issues themselves.
Lets consider the time constraints and peer pressure
...
Or none of the above come into play.

Members can go to the caucus or watch it video stream and hear all the debate.

Thereafter, Units can have meetings to discuss further if warranted

Then without pressure in a relaxed state of mind, each member votes,

An opportunity to participate not currently available.

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an entire replacement constitution was forged by the appointment from the IP of 4-5 people and that is the total involvement of the mass undertaking put before the club presently. Handshake deals outside the mainstream without summoning volunteers or extending the privilege to any member who would have liked to have served in that capacity were not solicited by the present leadership.
Carol, appointments are the way Special Committees are formed please see RONR.

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Old 04-26-2011, 03:51 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwightdi View Post
Do we have a policy manual now?
No
Quote:
What is the savings if we just move some of the Bylaws over to a new "policy manual"?
Don't follow that question.

Quote:
Who gets to write and approve the policy manual? How is the policy manual any different than the Bylaws?
It could be you! if you vote yes.

Difference, my take is a policy manual is akin to hand book, not laws as in bylaws.


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Old 04-26-2011, 04:15 PM   #226
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You used another weasel word "could". It is more likely the IBT or EC7 will be the only ones to write and approve such a handbook. There would be no $ savings in having another section called "Handbook" in the current "Bluebook". It is just a distraction, like changing the word "Region" to "Area". These are old politician's or magician's trick. It sure looks like there is still a lot of loose ends in what the committee is proposing and no one, except possibly the EC7, knows how it will really turn out. They and inner circle are the only ones that really control what can happen. It will take a change in attitude, from control to stewardship, for any meaningful changes in how the club operates. There are a lot of Region 1st and 2nd VP's that have been standing in line waiting to be president that will be sourly disappointed, if we reduce the number of "areas" and free lunches.
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Old 04-26-2011, 04:16 PM   #227
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Bob,

Your math indicates that there will be seven fewer regions. Is that your assumption or something in the new bylaws?

Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Tom is this what you were getting at?

a. International President $8,625.00
b. International First Vice-President $5,250.00
c. International Second Vice-President $5,025.00
d. International Third Vice President $4,875.00
e. International Recording Secretary $2,665.00
f. International Treasurer $2,660.00
g. Immediate Past President $300.00
h. Region President For the year 2010-2011, $1,178.00. x 12 = $14,136
i. Region Vice Presidents For the year 2010-2011, $612.00. x 12 = $7,344

Current budget $50,880

In the Revised Constitution those costs would decrease immediately
no 3vp $4,875 and less regions/areas about 8246/4284 or $17,405

Reducing the travel as it is now totaling $50,880 to $33,475 or 35%

Vote no it stays at 50K


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Old 04-26-2011, 05:21 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkerfoot View Post
Bob,

Your math indicates that there will be seven fewer regions. Is that your assumption or something in the new bylaws?
Bill since there isn't yet a new set of Bylaws (on paper) it is my assumption based upon what I believe to be a theory to equalize the number of members within each area/region.

A balance of power so to speak, several numbers have been tossed around as low as 5 - 8 most often, it's not the committees task to propose the number.


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Old 04-26-2011, 05:26 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwightdi View Post
You used another weasel word "could". It is more likely the IBT or EC7 will be the only ones to write and approve such a handbook.
That may be true perhaps not.



Seriously, it can be within the members control rather than the IBT.



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Old 04-26-2011, 05:43 PM   #230
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If you are correct, then there would be 5 Area officer votes to 7 International officer votes, correct?

Also the Area officers would have a larger area to cover, without an increase in travel reimbursement or a decrease in responsibilities, won't that make it more difficult to recruit officers.

Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Bill since there isn't yet a new set of Bylaws (on paper) it is my assumption based upon what I believe to be a theory to equalize the number of members within each area/region.

A balance of power so to speak, several numbers have been tossed around as low as 5 - 8 most often, it's not the committees task to propose the number.


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Old 04-26-2011, 06:47 PM   #231
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There is from time to time discussion on one man/one vote vs. representative democracy. This has been an issue in governments and organizations for many years and the arguments have been made over and over.

I like the idea of everyone gets to participate and to vote, but in practice it doesn't work so well. Well, maybe it works in the classic example, the New England town meeting.

I used to be involved in an organization with 3,000+ members around western Colorado. This was a group committed to democracy in principle. Yet, at the annual meeting where most members lived within less than 100 miles, 65-75 members would show up. That's around 2.3%. The board was characterized by grey hair (so were many of the attendees too) and pleas to the members to run for the board fell on deaf ears. This was depressing.

On the other hand, lots of organizations use mail ballots. I recently got my Consumer Reports ballot—another organization that says it's devoted to democracy. There are exactly the number of candidates as there are board slots. I don't remember ever being given the opportunity to nominate anyone.

I think everyone knows how low voter turnout is in US state, local and national elections. Ironically, before registration was required in the late 19th Century, Americans voted in very, very high numbers. Registration made it harder to vote and probably cleaned up the process, but reduced participation. A number of states seem to be making even hard to register and vote lately.

Someday maybe we will all be able to get in front of our computers or wrist radios and vote at once, but would that make it better?

The fact is most people don't seem to care about who runs anything, or if they do, they don't act on it. This allows a minority to take control and further limit who runs things.

I believe representative democracy works to provide more knowledgeable people in control but there have to be strong limits on their distorting things to prevent them from making the organization serve only them. Secondly, there have to be affirmative efforts to recruit more people to run for office and make sure those efforts are not subverted. It should be easy to run for office, but if 150 people run for each office, how can we tell who is best? That needs work. Those are the principles that may make for a better organization and if the proposed changes do not do that, maybe they are not the answer. Delegates will have to decide what version of the proposals or the present document make the most sense, and if none do, then try again I guess.

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Old 04-26-2011, 07:21 PM   #232
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The $$$$ problem in the WBCCI could be fix in two seconds if only the "good people of the IBT/EC7" would do so. It does not "require" a re-write of the Constitution.

1. All that has to be done is for the IBT/EC7 to say, we will cut "all" travel except for "searching for a site" (searching should be limited to 2 people) and "attending" the International Rally and will be paid by the mile to do so.

They (The IBT) has the power to change the Bylaws to do this NOW!!!

This is not real hard people! It just requires the ones "in power" to do the right thing!

How hard is that?
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Old 04-26-2011, 08:01 PM   #233
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Nice idea, Paul. but do you believe they ( EC-7) would really cut their own feed sack?
In our "other" RV club, we have one indiiviual who controls the show. He, then, delegates the work for finding a rally site to members who live in the area that is chosen. We have one national rally a year setup this way, and rest of the "mini" rallies are thought out and executed by those who just want a rally. This works fine as well. Granted, our numbers aren't as large as WBCCi.
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Old 04-27-2011, 05:22 AM   #234
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Quote:
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If you are correct, then there would be 5 Area officer votes to 7 International officer votes, correct?

Bill
No the President only votes in a tie situation.

The Revision proposes that the past IP status be ex officio, no vote.

They would then have 5 votes rather than 7.
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Old 04-27-2011, 05:39 AM   #235
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The $$$$ problem in the WBCCI could be fix in two seconds

1. All that has to be done is for the IBT/EC7 to say, we will cut "all" travel except for "searching for a site" (searching should be limited to 2 people) and "attending" the International Rally and will be paid by the mile to do so.

How hard is that?
Hard to believe the financial problems rest solely in the travel expenses.

But right not hard, the Revision reduces that from $50K to $32K or a 35% savings.

Secondly the EC6 shouldn't be doing site selections, an event planner should be retained to do it less expensively and likely better.


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Old 04-27-2011, 06:12 AM   #236
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Just a note on the club's accounting of travel expenses. The cost of the "special" advance caravan to the next international rally site traveling from the recently completed international rally is not included in the allowances that have been quoted. This is a separate general ledger account and there are no limitations to expense amounts. This account will also include any travel by the international officers, committee chairman, etc. that could be associated with planning an international rally.

One other account that holds travel expenses not restricted by the bylaws is "advertising". In the past, this account has held travel expenses of international officers to attend trade shows, RV shows with the purpose of promoting the WBCCI.
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Old 04-27-2011, 06:36 AM   #237
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How many new members do they sign up at the trade shows? Advance International planning and travel should come out of the International "pot" not the General fund.
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:48 AM   #238
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Advance International planning and travel should come out of the International "pot" not the General fund.
I like that idea
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:59 AM   #239
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I wonder if this debate over constitution amendments has sucked all the air out of any effort to elect new people and have them move through the system and take over the organization? New people are the best way to change things (if they don't become just like the old people by the time they get there).

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Old 04-27-2011, 08:55 AM   #240
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Just a note on the club's accounting of travel expenses. The cost of the "special" advance caravan to the next international rally site traveling from the recently completed international rally is not included in the allowances that have been quoted. This is a separate general ledger account and there are no limitations to expense amounts. This account will also include any travel by the international officers, committee chairman, etc. that could be associated with planning an international rally.

One other account that holds travel expenses not restricted by the bylaws is "advertising". In the past, this account has held travel expenses of international officers to attend trade shows, RV shows with the purpose of promoting the WBCCI.
Thanks for posting that. With fewer members the club just can not sustain that kind of open spending. I believe those funds are to serve the leadership in their glory reign and touring. It was said that the IP curtailed some of the "giveaways" for the international promotion which can and have also been substantial and suggested limiting incentives to a small number. I do wonder how effective rally promotion and the monies spent is. Rally attendence is way down. It isn't because of advance caravans or trinkets and bags and ribbons or the traveling show to regions and units across the country to plug the International. It has to be the perceived value to cost and the lack of entertaining and fun events to pack up the family, take off of work, use up your vacation, drive cross country on your own dime, pay through the nose to attend the few short days the general membership mostly attend and then basically swear off all the formal ceremonies, seminars, meetings, contests to find yourself only meeting at happy hour to be with your friends. Alumapalooza or the Birthday Bash have waiting lists after the full number is filled. If one plans a bangup rally, they will come. That is the problem. The International Rally except for the element of meeting together with Airstreamers from all over the country falls short of the measure of an entertaining and fun vacation and as we are often reminded by those paid to travel by our higher dues that it is a business convention. It is for them and about them. Make no mistake they customize to the catering of each other in the internaional club. Buildings with AC are the stuff that makes leadership's heart pitter patter, with as short a walk as possible from hall to hall, lest they get caught and need to actually mingle with membership in the fairground. For a treat they should wait in the bullpen two days and then get put in doggie section when the electric or water doesn't show up on time.
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