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Old 04-25-2011, 12:44 PM   #201
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What Bob is pointing out are some of the weaknesses of a representative democracy, where the representative does not give a dam or you may have elected a poor representative. You can have it either way, but you would not need to completely rewrite the whole constitution to achieve it. We are small enough now through 30 years of not keeping pace with society that we might be able to do a direct democracy via the internet, but I have used the weasel word "might". No bets the proposal will solve any or all of WBCCI's problems of declining membership which will eventually lead to a financial crisis.
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:47 PM   #202
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What if the members at the caucus do not understand the process or speak out or know RONR or have the time and money to attend the caucus.

Direct voting is no panacea, I would expect the members voting to be less than 30%. And before you ask the question, I do not know the answer.

Bill

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What do you do if your delegate in not present, no vote.

What if your delegate doesn't understand the process, no vote or wrong vote, happens a lot.

What if your delegate doesn't speak out or know RONR on how to speak to that assembly?, no vote or point of view recognized.

With the cost of gas and less folks going to the International year over year you can extrapolate that to less delegates being there.


.
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:22 PM   #203
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I would just as soon see the delegate system go. Along with it the voting of the units is currently a problem what with exact vote counts, proportional voting and block voting and not all units doing it the same way.
Likewise finding a delegate is a problem. No one from the TN unit is going this year ( and we are fairly close by)which means finding an alternate delegate and hoping he/she is going to vote the wishes of the unit and care enough to to be informed on the items being voted on.
Electronic/mail voting by the members is what is needed. Those who don't care won't vote and that is ok.

I would have been willing to go to the International, and would have been willing to be a delegate, however it won't happen with a hookup only International. But that is another issue
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:30 PM   #204
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What if the members at the caucus do not understand the process or speak out or know RONR or have the time and money to attend the caucus.

Direct voting is no panacea, I would expect the members voting to be less than 30%. And before you ask the question, I do not know the answer.

Bill
I agree, but they have at least an opportunity to vote.

Now their " vote is dependent upon the believes agenda attitude of the delegate who may or may not present their vote".
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:48 PM   #205
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At least with the Delegate system, a whole Unit's desires are sent to International. Even at that, in our Unit only a small portion of Denver Unit members participate in our business meetings. With member numbers over 110+ rigs in Denco, only 25% participate, and vote. We we have several different ways to vote, including hand-carrying of ballots to Spring business meeting..
IMIV, using our percentage only 1500 WBCCI members would vote., So, a small percentage of total WBCCI members would be in control of the Club with IMIV. Cast NO at Revision.. Amend current Constiution for club change.

By the way, just got word, 3 Region 11 Units have re-voted FOR the Denco Motion, and with Denco not having to revote, that's a total of 4 Units out of 6 in Region 11 For the Denco Motion.
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Old 04-25-2011, 04:19 PM   #206
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Do you only need a majority of units to move the motion forward?

Bill

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At least with the Delegate system, a whole Unit's desires are sent to International. Even at that, in our Unit only a small portion of Denver Unit members participate in our business meetings. With member numbers over 110+ rigs in Denco, only 25% participate, and vote. We we have several different ways to vote, including hand-carrying of ballots to Spring business meeting..
IMIV, using our percentage only 1500 WBCCI members would vote., So, a small percentage of total WBCCI members would be in control of the Club with IMIV. Cast NO at Revision.. Amend current Constiution for club change.

By the way, just got word, 3 Region 11 Units have re-voted FOR the Denco Motion, and with Denco not having to revote, that's a total of 4 Units out of 6 in Region 11 For the Denco Motion.
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Old 04-25-2011, 04:55 PM   #207
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Yes, it needs a majority of the units in the region to move to the next phase. It will then be sent out to all the units of the club and 2/3 of the units must pass the amendment within one year for it to be adopted.
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Old 04-25-2011, 05:20 PM   #208
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I would just as soon see the delegate system go. Along with it the voting of the units is currently a problem what with exact vote counts, proportional voting and block voting and not all units doing it the same way.
Likewise finding a delegate is a problem. No one from the TN unit is going this year ( and we are fairly close by)which means finding an alternate delegate and hoping he/she is going to vote the wishes of the unit and care enough to to be informed on the items being voted on.
Electronic/mail voting by the members is what is needed. Those who don't care won't vote and that is ok.

I would have been willing to go to the International, and would have been willing to be a delegate, however it won't happen with a hookup only International. But that is another issue
Rick

How many votes are being lost by the fact that Tn. is not going to the International? Agreed not everyone in Tn. would vote electronically of 1m1v was available but those that would vote would at least be heard. This year they may not be heard at all.

Maybe some of those so adamantly advocating the retention of the Delegate system will begin to see the light when they realize Delegates are a thing of the economic past.
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Old 04-25-2011, 06:42 PM   #209
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I will predict now, if the WBCCI goes to the "Member Caucus" getting rid of the delegates with a 1M1V type voting system, the International Rally will become nothing more than a "Mid-Winter IBT Meeting" in the middle of the summer within a matter of a few years.
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Old 04-25-2011, 06:48 PM   #210
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I could be wrong, but somewhere I recall July 4th was not only a celebration of our Countries birth, but also the birth of Wally Byam. I thought the International was a celebration of that. Change the date and you kind of take all the meaning from it. Maybe I am just looking at it all wrong. I know this Fourth, I will be having a birthday party for Mr Byam. If anyone wants to know how, just shoot me a PM.
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Old 04-25-2011, 07:07 PM   #211
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I will predict now, if the WBCCI goes to the "Member Caucus" getting rid of the delegates with a 1M1V type voting system, the International Rally will become nothing more than a "Mid-Winter IBT Meeting" in the middle of the summer within a matter of a few years.
And what exactly do see wrong with that? Could serious regional rallies at much lower cost not accomplish even more. Maybe some competition among the regions might bring surprising results.

You could always lessen the Lawrence W. on your I Pod while enjoying a great rally.
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Old 04-25-2011, 07:15 PM   #212
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Rick

How many votes are being lost by the fact that Tn. is not going to the International? Agreed not everyone in Tn. would vote electronically of 1m1v was available but those that would vote would at least be heard. This year they may not be heard at all.

Maybe some of those so adamantly advocating the retention of the Delegate system will begin to see the light when they realize Delegates are a thing of the economic past.
I believe TN will have an alternate delegate there. A couple possibilities were discussed. The Unit has around 40 members by my best guess. The new constitution has not yet been voted on..
Two years ago we tried mail voting and only 5 votes were returned which may be an indication of the interest of the average member across the club.
Last year I stopped a block vote by not supporting any of the ordained candidates for the nominating committee.
Hopefully we will get a better return this time
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Old 04-25-2011, 07:53 PM   #213
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Gosh Frank,
I thought you were about to tell us, "it is a myth, Wally's birth date isn't Jul 4". I guess i was sort of hoping you would, actually.

Jim
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Old 04-25-2011, 08:13 PM   #214
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Howie,

I guess, I'm just an old guy in a young man's body. I personally liked going to the International Rally in Vermont back in 2003 with 1800+ trailers if I remember correctly. It was great seeing so many trailers at one time.

Springfield, MO was OK. Don't remember the numbers (I think around 1200) I didn't like how they stuck the VAC on in the sluge field, but hey, I bought a 12' round pool (3 1/2 feet deep) stuck it in front of the trailer and had a good time anyway.

Perry, GA was the begining (around 900 if memory is good) of the end with the Shari Davis "smack down". After watching what happen there after a few days, I was ready to come home.

This club could be a great club and is in many ways. I'd just like to see it last long enough for my nine year old girl to have her own trailer with the red numbers on it.

The IBT/EC7 has the powers "today" to make the needed changes to this club, one that will bring members back and to the club by the 100's but only if they care to do so.

I'm afraid, if the New Constitution is passed two things will happen:

1. The "old guard" will resent the changes and then they to will start to drop like flies.

2. The New Constitution is nothing but paper and words, that in it's self will not save the club. As "Shacksman" said. It will require good people doing the "right" thing and I'm sorry the New Constitution will not change that.

Either way, it's not good.

A wise man once said to me:

"The road down is paved with good intentions"

Maybe it's time everyone just gave it a rest.
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Old 04-26-2011, 06:32 AM   #215
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Another wise man, a founding father in fact said

The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.

Patrick Henry




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Old 04-26-2011, 07:15 AM   #216
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Facts you should know

Bob,

You quote a very great man, a Virginia man might I add;

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."

Which is great; if it had worked.

Much like our own Constitution, the WBCCI Constitution was not able to keep control of the people with the power of the purse and the power to regulate.

Look below for some interesting facts;

This data is from 2000 which add to that 6 Pages of Obamacare Law Equals 429 Pages of Regulations which will add another 140,000 pages of regulations to the already 134,723 (has of 2000) for a whopping 274,723 pages of just "Federal" regulations.

How Many Federal Regulations are There?
According to the Office of the Federal Register, in 1998, the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), the official listing of all regulations in effect, contained a total of 134,723 pages in 201 volumes that claimed 19 feet of shelf space. In 1970, the CFR totaled only 54,834 pages.
The General Accountability Office (GAO) reports that in the four fiscal years from 1996 to 1999, a total of 15,286 new federal regulations went into effect. Of these, 222 were classified as "major" rules, each one having an annual effect on the economy of at least $100 million.
While they call the process "rulemaking," the regulatory agencies create and enforce "rules" that are truly laws, many with the potential to profoundly effect the lives and livelihoods of millions of Americans. What controls and oversight are placed on the regulatory agencies in creating the federal regulations?

Federal Regulations About US Federal Regulations

6 Pages of Obamacare Equals 429 Pages of Regulations - US News and World Report

So, now knowing these facts;

Do you suggest we re-write the U.S. Constitution as well?
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Old 04-26-2011, 09:54 AM   #217
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Paul,

Keep talkin...your beginning to convince me.


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All one has to do is open each of these files to get an idea of what already exists in the way of the constitution (14 pages), bylaws(73 pages) and the appendix pages(91 pages) to the bylaws. Contemplate the work that went into creating these documents over the years.

BB Code Table of Contents Constitution3[1].pdf
BB Bylaws3[1].pdf (Check out pages 35-2, 36 and 37..$31,000???)
BB Appendix3[1].pdf

This revision can cause more problems than it will fix.

Still on the fence but , leaning hard in one direction.
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Old 04-26-2011, 01:10 PM   #218
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Tom is this what you were getting at?

a. International President $8,625.00
b. International First Vice-President $5,250.00
c. International Second Vice-President $5,025.00
d. International Third Vice President $4,875.00
e. International Recording Secretary $2,665.00
f. International Treasurer $2,660.00
g. Immediate Past President $300.00
h. Region President For the year 2010-2011, $1,178.00. x 12 = $14,136
i. Region Vice Presidents For the year 2010-2011, $612.00. x 12 = $7,344

Current budget $50,880

In the Revised Constitution those costs would decrease immediately
no 3vp $4,875 and less regions/areas about 8246/4284 or $17,405

Reducing the travel as it is now totaling $50,880 to $33,475 or 35%

Vote no it stays at 50K


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Old 04-26-2011, 01:37 PM   #219
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Quote:
All one has to do is open each of these files to get an idea of what already exists in the way of the constitution (14 pages), bylaws(73 pages) and the appendix pages(91 pages) to the bylaws. Contemplate the work that went into creating these documents over the years.
I would hate to think how many hours went into all those pages on how to fly your flag, and all the additional pages on how to configure your badge, and of course what color it should be.


I wouldn't have a problem with modifying the existing bylaws and constitution if I could believe it could happen but after listening to all the feeds and what goes on doing something simple I can't picture it happening.

I think a clean start is needed..
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Old 04-26-2011, 01:44 PM   #220
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The bylaws are way too cumbersome, most of the language (or bulk) belongs in a "Policy Manual" not per se in the Bylaws.
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