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Old 08-31-2008, 02:41 PM   #81
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Convince you? Hmmm.

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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Jim,

Forrest is correct, we don’t know who you are; we do know you have an Airstream since 11/07 or 9 months, we know you’re not a WBCCI member.
We know you first saw the existing Bylaws 12 days ago for the first time and now claim to be an expert on them and the WBCCI.
You contacted Airstream on your own to talk about a club.
On 8-16 you stated http://www.airforums.com/forums/f232...tml#post604356



You may be the next best thing to sliced bread but we don’t know you, to gain our trust tell us about yourself.

Tell us who you have been conferences with on this goal.

How can someone become such an expert on the Airstream way of life, the needs of it’s owners and develop a structure for a new club and have the NEW bylaws drafted?

Convince me.
Hi Bob,

Hopefully the post I just sent prior to this will answer some of your questions about who I am.

I have experience with bylaws for mutual benefit domestic non profit organizations, if that makes me an expert in your mind I would like to dispel that thought right now. There are others on the Airforum who have also said that they have experience in this area.

For what it is worth, most bylaws tend to be boiler plate stuff. The "nitty gritty" (technical term) tends to be specifics that are worked out as the people who work to establish the organization reach decisions for the things that must be included in the bylaws.

For example how the membership selects and elects officers is something that is included in bylaws. It is not hard to modify a boiler plate document to include the specifics as to what the founders of the organization specify. The same is true for a name for an organization. It's only words that get inserted into the specific part of the document that addresses that particular subject.

As I stated in my first post in this thread, I think it is much to soon to make determinations about what the content for bylaws for a new Airstream club should be. The people who choose to work on the formation of the club will have to make those decisions as they work through the process of establishing how they want their club structured.

As for my contacting Airstream I do not see any harm in this. From what I have read here in the Airforums there are many who have questions about the use of the Airstream name for any purpose. An issue like this needs someone to champion it and find out what is possible. Knowing what is possible makes it much easier for people to make decisions about such things as a name for a club, as in will Airstream let us use the name in that of a new Airstream club like the VAC does?

As far as convincing you I'm not sure what you want from me. All I can do is what I have done and am doing; offer my services as a facilitator to work with the people who are interested in establishing a new Airstream club. If you are interested in participating join in. Whatever results of our efforts will be a compilation of the infromation and suggestions/ideas that the participants bring to the process.

Now, having said that I can only hope that everyone who participates will recognize that not everyone is going to get everything that they would like from the process. There just has to be a lot of give and take from all parties concerned if we are to be successful in establishing a new Airstream club.

I will repeat my analogy that unlike Calvin of comic strip fame I am NOT interested in "being supreme, ultimate dictator for life". Or for 30 seconds for that matter. I am interested in facilitating the process of forming a new Airstream club.

I hope this combined with your perusal of the info about my wife and I on our web site answers your questions.

Jim
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:44 PM   #82
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Globalization...

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Jim,

I got to your web site, I'm impressed. Who are you? You are travelers, straight and simple. And you've done a lot of it, more perhaps than anyone else on the forum. Good for you.

I find your sections on Globalization interesting, the quote that you agree with, "integration of markets, nation-states and technologies to a degree never witnessed before—in a way that is enabling individuals, corporations and nation-states to reach around the world farther, faster, deeper and cheaper than ever before, and in a way that is enabling the world to reach into individuals," is to me scary. I've seen first hand how the integration of business and government as partners in pursuit of profit runs rough shod over the rights of citizens as guaranteed by the US Constitution. I've seen first hand how business protects profit, not inalienable rights, and when government becomes a business for profit rights become second to that profit. Just my thoughts on that, but nothing more since this isn't a forum on Globalization.
Yes Forest, I am a capitalist at heart.

But, I also believe very much that regulation is part of capitalism.

And yes, all of this is for another time and another place.

Jim
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Old 09-01-2008, 07:33 AM   #83
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A Lot of Grilling

Boy, for someone who wants to help the group he should is getting grilled. I have found the the new and the old bring a lot of good ideas to the table and I would think that this the case here.

I know its the holiday weekend, but keep the grilling to the back patio! Keep typing Jim!
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Old 09-01-2008, 08:59 AM   #84
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Rules, etc....

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I said Id join a new club,but now we are back talkin bout rules and by-laws and presidents and treasurers and it will go back to what already exists excluding anyone who hasn't yet experienced owning an AS but wants too. Its supposed to be about campin an fun and adventure.
We attended a rally in Mich where everyone was welcome and it Worked.
I don't think we want to join any club now
Hi Mike,

I can only hope that you are feeling a bit more comfortable about the ideas for a new club based on what has been posted in this thread to date. I believe that your concerns about bureaucracy are well founded. But, as others have stated, there just has to be some in order to ensure that the members and officers of the club are protected. Like it or not, in our society it is all too easy for someone to file a lawsuit. The key, in my opinion, is to keep things as simple as possible. The objective should be to have every member be able to understand how the club operates and WHY it operates the way it does. In my experience when this is the case problems within the club tend to be minimal due to bureaucracy.

I cannot AGREE more with your comments as to what it should be all about. I suspect that your thoughts are shared by the vast majority of folks.

Jim
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Old 09-01-2008, 09:32 AM   #85
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Hi Nuvi,


I am convinced the propblems within the WBCCI stem from the structure of the organization.

Part of the problem with the WBCCI is that it is so large (74 pages of bylaws) and has three levels of management (IBT/REGIONS/Units).
Jim

And the form of the controll processes.

I would gladly devote time to forming a new club. Personally I like SOFI. Secret Order of Flamingoe's where the I is silence.

I would be honored to host a Northeast rally not affiliated with WBCCI for the new club next season. Any Co host's ?

With regard to the legal issues if we do not have a name or bylaws and you cann't find us how do you suit us because there is no "us"? The whole bylaw thing I find problematic. I quess it's necessary.

Frankly I think Airstream would welcome our efforts if well done.
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Old 09-01-2008, 09:56 AM   #86
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Our efforts...

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<SNIP>

Frankly I think Airstream would welcome our efforts if well done.
Welcome aboard Over59,

I do believe that you have said something here!

I, obviously, agree whole heatedly with your sentiments.

From what we have seen here in this thread I suspect that many others share your thoughts about creating a club that will be something that we all will be able to take pride in. By following your suggestion we should be able to build something that a good number of people will want to be a part of thereby attracting members with diverse interests and backgrounds.

Jim
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:22 AM   #87
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I would gladly devote time to forming a new club. Personally I like SOFI. Secret Order of Flamingoes. . .
Love it! By our flamingoes they will know us. . .

Now we need to work on a secret handshake. . .
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:28 AM   #88
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A secret handshake?

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Love it! By our flamingoes they will know us. . .

Now we need to work on a secret handshake. . .
Ya! I'm challenged with some hand signals though; I can only do the Spock Vulcan hand greeting with my left hand. For some reason I cannot will the fingers on my right hand to work properly for that particular sign.

Will I be penalized it I do the handshake incorrectly?

Jim
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:42 AM   #89
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Controll processess...

Quote:
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And the form of the controll processes.

<SNIP>
Mia culpa. I got so excited about your suggestion that we work hard to ensure a quality product that I completely forgot to include a response to your words above about CONTROL.

From my perspective the last thing that we should do is include "stuff" that is restrictive in our documentation (bylaws).

From my experience this is an area where a lot of organizations create problems for themselves. For some reason there are lots of folks out there who are of the opinion that things MUST be done a certain way. I am NOT one of them.

I sure hope that is NOT something that we get caught up in here.

For example, I would like to think that what someone cares to put on their trailer or MH is no ones business but theirs.

I have to admit that I am not much hung up on "what it looks like". I much prefer "that it works right".

Jim
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Old 09-01-2008, 11:01 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikethefixit View Post
I said Id join a new club,but now we are back talkin bout rules and by-laws and presidents and treasurers and it will go back to what already exists excluding anyone who hasn't yet experienced owning an AS but wants too. Its supposed to be about campin an fun and adventure.
We attended a rally in Mich where everyone was welcome and it Worked.
I don't think we want to join any club now
Hey Roger (Mikethefixit) Brad and I had a great time at the two forum rallies we attended with you and all the Metro Detroit and Ohio and Rivette folks. I think ideas for a new modern club of Airstreamers might just be a wonderful way to get even more Airstreamers together if the club is highly visible and promoted and delivers opportunities for fun events. And think of all the people new to Airstreaming buying their first Airstream. I don't think Airstream or the dealers are trying to talk people into the WBCCI any more. A new club would reach more and more people to get together with. Hey rules are not my cup of tea either, but if all goes properly we won't even have to think of them, everything will just flow. It's only because WBCCI has made such a convoluted and difficult mess of it that has us all reeling from that stinging effect! I think Jim and the others are right, organizations need to have some framework. The bonus of this is you can help create it and are assured you can even change it to best reflect what the members want at any given time!!!
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Old 09-01-2008, 11:17 AM   #91
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Mikethefixit is Roger...

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Hey Roger (Mikethefixit)
Gulp, blush, blush...

Boy, don't I feel like the complete fool for assuming your name was Mike.

Roger, I am very sorry for my mistake.

This does raise an interesting point though.

While anonymity is a wonderful thing in forums I wonder if we should be using our first names in our posts?

Conversations tend to be more friendly and cordial when we "know" each other. There certainly was lots of interest in this type of stuff yesterday.

Perhaps I wouldn't make such a fool of myself again. But having said that, being a guy I excel at making mistakes; it has something to do with the "following directions" gene and other such things according to SWMBO.

I apologize for my mistake but I am sure I will make other mistakes even though I will always try to do the best that I can.

Jim
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Old 09-01-2008, 11:52 AM   #92
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Well, if anyone here, finds out who am I, please be certain to let me know. I've been struggling with that all my life. And it seems this identity crisis may even have become pandemic...

OK just teasing. First names are fine with me, but the WBCCI will have to just have to hunt me down if they want me.
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Old 09-01-2008, 12:11 PM   #93
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rua turtle? Y B Y S A I A!

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...While anonymity is a wonderful thing in forums I wonder if we should be using our first names in our posts?...
the fact (or fallacy) that mike's name isn't mike is all the more funny, which leads to friendly...

his name might really be 'fix or 'it, either work for me (so does roger) and are no less friendly 'names'...

OR we could just call everyone bob or rock or later.

pick up on HOW folks sign posts, if they do, and just use that and above all respect privacy...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f48/...red-19576.html

i still c the urge to generate rules that aren't needed at the core of this new enterprise

less is more.

are u familiar with the turtle club?

having been a member for 29 years, and reached the level of past imperial turtle,

i liked the 'grand snapping turtle' title more...

pre-web we had a LOT more mystery, secrecy and intrigue in the turtle club,

but, they got just the right # of rules a badge, a certificate and vehicle insignia...

Ancient Order of Turtles

cheers
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Old 09-01-2008, 01:06 PM   #94
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Flamingites Unite!

Don't mean to hijack BUT (she said getting ready to toss the fertilizer into the ventilator)......

Sooner or later someone will have to say this.
  • Will the WBCCI be able to keep it's non-profit status if they start wholesale expulsions/suspensions? Sadly, the IRS gets real interested in "non-profits" which have been hijacked for the benefit of a ruling cadre, rather than the leaders SERVING their membership. I believe that the IBT members are honestly trying to keep their vision of the WBCCI "the way it was/should be" - and they honestly think that they've waited for 20 years to lead, so they are not accountable to anyone.
  • If the WBCCI loses 2/3 or more of it's members by taking a "quality, not quantity" stance is the impetus for forming an alternate club (perhaps even supported by Airstream itself) will some lawyer file suit to take 2/3 or more of the WBCCI's treasury?
  • If the WBCCI simply ends up like the Shaker church - an empty museum (they practiced celibacy-a policy that resulted in negative growth over time...) who DOES get their treasury?
I know a lot of people who've enjoyed their WBCCI rallies and friendships will either ignore the IBT or try to make the club more responsive and I'll even contribute to that effort, but if change doesn't happen within a year or so, I'd predict an "international" where every member has three digit numbers.

Paula
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Old 09-01-2008, 01:44 PM   #95
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Rule generation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post

<SNIP>

i still c the urge to generate rules that aren't needed at the core of this new enterprise

<SNIP>

cheers
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2air,

I plead ignorance your honor. I don't have a clue as to what you are referring to.

Clairvoyance has never been my strong suit; just ask SWMBO.

I do not want to speak for anyone else but I suspect others may not get it either.

Can you please be more specific so we all can understand your issue/concern.

Thanks,

Jim
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Old 09-01-2008, 01:46 PM   #96
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Love it! By our flamingoes they will know us. . .

Now we need to work on a secret handshake. . .
That's fine but what about the ladies?
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Old 09-01-2008, 01:46 PM   #97
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Paula, not sure if you are serious or tongue-in-cheek, but I'm pretty sure that the by-laws of any 501(c)3 have to spell out what happens to the assets of said organization if it "folds". And no, the officers/directors can't simply take the money and run. In the back of my mind, I believe that it has to be distributed to other non-profits in some manner. But I could be totally wrong. Somebody will know the answer.

Jim (that's my real name, but y'all can call me bubba if ya want).
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Old 09-01-2008, 01:56 PM   #98
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New Name Stuff

I'm not a lawyer, and I didn't play one on tv, but in the law there is something about different companies using similar names. Basically, IIRC, a new company can't use a name that substantially similar to an existing company WITHOUT THE PERMISSION of the older company.

I seriously doubt that this new enterprise would ever obtain the permission of the WBCCI to use any part of that name. Airstream is a different animal, though. I see that as doable, but not guaranteed. This forum is one example to point to.

Just may 2 cents. Remember, you get what you pay for (usually).

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Old 09-01-2008, 02:00 PM   #99
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Ya! I'm challenged with some hand signals though; I can only do the Spock Vulcan hand greeting with my left hand. For some reason I cannot will the fingers on my right hand to work properly for that particular sign.

Will I be penalized it I do the handshake incorrectly?

Jim

Speaking of Kirk, Spoc and the boys....

If we decide to do numbers in the new club, I call dibs on 1701. And keeping with Star Fleet tradition, we need to do them in a dark gray.....

Jim
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Old 09-01-2008, 02:04 PM   #100
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  • If the WBCCI simply ends up like the Shaker church - an empty museum (they practiced celibacy-a policy that resulted in negative growth over time...) who DOES get their treasury?
Actually I think it's a moot question, as by definition the club won't go out of business until the treasury has been emptied. A couple of International rallies with nothing but three-digit numbers in attendance would do it. . .
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