A Modest Proposal

[LI Pets]

Please don't miss understand my point, but if you have little or no experience with the structure and problems with the WBBCI how can you be qualified to know what is right if you don't know what is wrong first hand.

I have have an Airstream 3 years not forty, nor is that required.

Having read the 75 pages of current bylaws and not living with them is two different things.

Ask others with experience, pickup a phone talk for example with Bob T.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by Minnie's Mate

... do I count?

i'm sure you do!

the question is, with what?

besides ne1 can count.

how about a nice game of parcheesi...

or thermonuclear warfare?

cheers
2air'

[norsea]

Hello everyone,

Andy and I have been swapping PM's about a sub forum for this discussion.

He has agreed to establish a sub forum for us to use to continue that which WE have started here.

Due to the holiday week end the work to establish the sub forum will not be done until Monday next.

As soon as it is up and working I will post to this thread so stating.

For now, I would like to suggest that we devote some energy to the structure of this sub forum.

My worst fear is that we could very easily just start posting "stuff" in random threads which would be very difficult for anyone to sift through and understand.

I am more than willing to entertain ideas and thoughts about this and suggest that we use this thread to discuss ideas for the sub forum structure so we all won't get lost in our ideas and thoughts.

For example, I can see three threads associated with a club name.

One for general discussion about club names where anyone can post anything they would like.

A second thread could be used to accept peoples club name proposals that could include the reasons they are suggesting the name. However, posts to this thread should be limited to a name and a reason; no reply's. Use the general discussion thread to work out your ideas and test the idea with others before posting in this thread. This way we can have one place with nothing in it but name suggestions. This will make it much easier to avoid duplicates, etc.

The third club name thread would come after everyone agrees that we have sufficient names and we could take a poll letting folks rank their top 5 picks, or some such, and go on from there in trying to select a club name.

I can see something along these lines for lots of other subjects as well.

What do y'all think we ought to set up in order to be able to move forward with some semblance of purpose?

Jim

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

how about a nice game of parcheesi...

or thermonuclear warfare?

cheers
2air'

The only way to win, is not to play.
Will-burrr.....

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by overlander63

The only way to win, is not to play.
Will-burrr.....

exactly!

Originally Posted by norsea

...My worst fear is that we could very easily just start posting "stuff" in random...

welcome to forum reality....

that's HOW all the threads go to some extent and some more than others....

are u suggesting some HIGHER ORDER or CONTROL or LIMITS for some new sub forum?

if so, why not for ANY of the really important issues here?

look if your notion for a new 'stream group starts with this level of arbitrary limits, well, you lost me now as a supporter.

life is messy, and so is planning. live with it.

otoh IF you are suggesting a 'private forums' (those exist here too) where members who wanna HELP can join and post...

that's a 'whole nother issue and might be wiser (not better)...

many folks (somewhere around 100-300 posts) here get frustrated with 'hijacks or humor or marginally on topic posts in THEIR threads...

some of those folks start websites or blogs SOMEWHERE ELSE, just so they can control who/what is posted.

give that some thought,

it seems to work for those folks who are more bothered by the occasional tangential posts that the value of DIVERSE input.


cheers
2air'

[wheel interested]

My worst fear is that we could very easily just start posting "stuff" in random threads which would be very difficult for anyone to sift through and understand.

I think Jim means that many of us talking about a new club have had some posts in different places and threads to date and he doesn't want to lose any of our gems or pearls of wisdom and contributions. And as they may be situated now, others may be confused about isolated or random posts in those or other threads. The dedication of a central place for ideas is intended to help streamline and by no means represent micromanaging and control but a way to get all kinds of input from many people who are interested in a new club start-up.

2Air, those Salem threads you linked are so funny... funny but true. How could I have forgotten the RBCCI? I think I did see Wally in that fire and you saw the whole shabang going down in flames years ago. Perceptive and before your time rabbit. That's a beret we were proud and happy to wear.

[watson007]

I only bought my first Airstream last week [my first camper for that matter ]
I have previously owned a huge campground on an island just along the coast of Maine so I certainly do have quite a bit of experience in this area.
My only question in this whole thing is :

Where do i send my $30.00 or $50.00 or whatever membership fee?
As long as you don't have people who think they are superior to other people then I am in.
once you get to the point of some people thinking that they are "above it all and "the rules don't apply to me" because I am an important person ,then I think that I will make a purchase of about $100.00 or so , and drive about 2 hours south of here , and throw a huge box of tea into Boston Harbor !!
I think it sounds like time for another "BOSTON TEA PARTY" AND i HAVE ONLY BEEN READING HERE FOR A WEEK ..NOT EVEN A MEMBER YET [ HAVEN'T HAD TIME TO SEND IN MY LOOT !! BUT IT APPEARS THAT i MAY WANT TO WAIT A MONTH OR SO !!!!!!!
So, I hope I have offended the pompous a$$'$ and that they vote to keep me out ...I don't need them to go camping and have fun ! I have no doubt that I will meet many many campers ,Airstreams or not , who are in it for the fun .....
Now one last thing ...There was a post here just a wee bit ago from a man who regularly wears a beret.... That sounds fine,,,but if you put it on in order to make you feel superior as a CAMPER , or to make all the other campers inferior to you , then you and i have a problem ...but ,just from the sound of your post , I think I will simply want to shake your hand...other than that,Please tell me where to send my check !!
Mike Clayton
Sandwich,New Hampshire " on Golden Pond"

[norsea]

Originally Posted by wheel interested

I think Jim means that many of us talking about a new club have had some posts in different places and threads to date and he doesn't want to lose any of our gems or pearls of wisdom and contributions. And as they may be situated now, others may be confused about isolated or random posts in those or other threads. The dedication of a central place for ideas is intended to help streamline and by no means represent micromanaging and control but a way to get all kinds of input from many people who are interested in a new club start-up.

<SNIP>

Cariol, you're bang on!

The moderatores here on the Airforum have spent an incredible amount of time and energy this past year sifting thought ALL of the posts that had been made over the years in order to create order out of chaos.

If I understood the motivation for their taking this task on it was to make the forum a better place by organizing the information in all the posts in a way that made it relevant by subject matter and so that it would be easier for people to locate the information that they were looking for.

While I would like to think that people who will be willing to work towards the establishments of a new Airstream club will do so with lots of vigor I am NOT naive enough to think that this task will be the number one item in their lives. If we are lucky it could be in the top ten.

Let's all be very clear that family, work and lots of "other stuff" have a much higher priority in peoples lives than contributing to the process of creating a new Airstream club.

Given that the vast majority of us have lives away from the Airfoum it would be nice to establish our quest for a new club using tools that will make our work easier rather than difficult.

One of my desires is to not have to sift through tons of posts that contain segways galore. I just do NOT have the time and I doubt that many other people do either.

What I am suggesting is that we take a tip from the moderators of the Airforums and build a bit of structure into our sub forum before we start. I sure do not have the time to come back and rebuild everything that will be posted after the fact. We need to do things that we will be able to use easily in order for everyone to understand what is going on without having to search through untold numbers of posts that are not relevant to the subject at hand.

Given that there are already many, many posts on the subject of a new club here on the Airfourm I wonder if someone is willing to sift through this information and collate it so that we can include it as one of the first steps in the creation of our sub forum?

Also, let me take this opportunity to make this very clear. Unlike Calvin in the comic strips I have NO desire to be, "supreme, ultimate dictator for life".

I gave the work and politics associated with this activity lots of thought before I made my first post which was a thread some weeks ago asking about a new Airstream Camping Club. Some folks are going to be very upset with me for taking this task on. Others will be very happy that someone has stepped up and is doing something rather than just talking about it.

If your are interested in working WITH me to establish a new Airstream club welcome aboard. I have no illusions that whatever we decide to do will please everyone. Just not possible. But, the more people that participate and get involved the better the end result will be. Decisions made by the group as a whole are always best. But lets be realistic about this too. We each are going to have to "give and take" in order for this to be a success.

Facilitatingly yours,

Jim

[joecolao]

I am fed up with the in-fighting caused by the Jim Franklin Types.
I don't want to lose my camping buddies.
I don't need to be entertained by the standards of somebody else's standards to have fun.
I don't want to pay a fortune to camp and have fun.
I don't feel the compelling need to remove my numbers, I bought them I own them. Maybe a Smiley Face on top or on the sides of them could signify another membersthip.
I love to volunteer and I love and respect other volunteers and I cherish them too!

Would I fit into this new club?

[cameront120]

Originally Posted by watson007

...There was a post here just a wee bit ago from a man who regularly wears a beret.... That sounds fine,,,but if you put it on in order to make you feel superior as a CAMPER , or to make all the other campers inferior to you , then you and i have a problem ...but ,just from the sound of your post , I think I will simply want to shake your hand...

I'm happy with a handshake! Like you, I don't want rules, just fun.

[Nuvite-F]

Originally Posted by joecolao

[
I don't feel the compelling need to remove my numbers, I bought them I own them. Maybe a Smiley Face on top or on the sides of them could signify another membership.

Joe,

I love it! Let's do smiley faces rather than stars! (I never put up our stars, anyhow.)

[nasons]

I agree Joe, I love smiley faces after all that is what we all experience when we go camping.....in our 'streams.......
Michele

[norsea]

Originally Posted by joecolao

I am fed up with the in-fighting caused by the Jim Franklin Types.
I don't want to lose my camping buddies.
I don't need to be entertained by the standards of somebody else's standards to have fun.
I don't want to pay a fortune to camp and have fun.
I don't feel the compelling need to remove my numbers, I bought them I own them. Maybe a Smiley Face on top or on the sides of them could signify another membersthip.
I love to volunteer and I love and respect other volunteers and I cherish them too!

Would I fit into this new club?

Hi Joe,

It is not my place to speak for others and how they would feel about the "fit" that you ask about. I can only speak about what I would like to see.

From my perspective keeping things simple (the KISS method of engineering) is something that should be adhered to as much as possible. I would like to think that we all realize that there has to be some amount of "overhead" that goes along with any organization.

As much as people do not like rules there have to be some. People like to refer to this here Airform as a place where things are free and easy going.

They are right, to a point. The Airforum has moderators who act in small "police" role to ensure that dignity and respect is always maintained as an integral part of the Airforum. I have not heard much in the way of complaint about this and it is spelled out fairly well as a part of the Airfoum "policy". So, even here we have rules.

My idea for a new club is to be as INCLUSIVE as possible. That's why my post detailing my suggestions/ideas has the following statement right up front:

"...The ONLY requirement for membership is that the proposed member wishes to further the better interests of the organization. NOTHING else."

Most of the clubs I have participated in over the years tend to have statements of purpose that are more EXCLUSIVE than inclusive. I personally am not of fan of excluding anyone from anything that they would like to be involved in.

At the same time I realise that no club can be all things to all people; this is just not possible. That, in fact, is why this process is moving forward.

One thing I would hope everyone who chooses to get involved in the building of a new Airstream club will do is honor and respect the legacy and history of the WBCCI. The WBCCI has a very rich history and tradition that evokes a lot of pride and memorable moments for many, many people. That should always be remembered and everyone should respect that.

Many people in this thread have voiced an opinion that they would like an alternative to the WBCCI for an Airstream club. My intent is to work with those that would like be work on buidling a new club and facilitate this endeavor.

As to what this club will be and weather or not you would "fit" into it I would suggest that you jump into the deep end of the pond with the others who are choosing to get their feet wet by working toward building a new club. Whatever a new Airstream club "looks" like will be totally dependent on the people who choose to participate in the formation fo the organization in its infancy.

But, having said that my goal would be to create an organization that is flexible enough to grow or shirnk as needed by by chaning times. If this is sometihng you would like to be a memeber of then by all means you are welcome as far as I am concerned.

Jim

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by LI Pets

Jim don't take this the wrong way but you're getting ahead of your self talking about the structure of a Airstream club.

You're an Airstream owner what about a year?
With less than 100 posts

There are many people here that you should be getting input from before you post your ideas.

Li Pets, I think I understood what you were trying to say, so I didn't take it "the wrong way" like some of the other posts. I think you are concerned about where someone coming out of no where wants to lead us.

Jim, you seem to be taking the lead and saying "follow me!" You've got a lot of enthusiasm for sure, but I've seen that before. The question is do you have the endurance? Since you do seem to be new to Airstreaming and to the forums I don't think its unreasonable to want to know something about the person that wants us to follow over to a new club.

So, who are you? I tried to go to your web site, but it doesn't seem to be functioning. You only sign your posts as "Jim" - Jim who? I went to your personal profile and it doesn't tell me much about you. This is a problem with forums... you could be anybody, maybe even Jim Franklin trying to led us malcontents out of the WBCCI!

[ronstory]

Forrest--

The silvertwinkie.norseaodyssey.com website works for me.

[wheel interested]

Silver Twinkie

works for me too and this page is entitled "who we are"

Who We Are

What's all the big concern to exchange ideas on the forum, am I missing something here? Or he could be the Pied Pieper and lead us as the children to a mountain and never be seen again. Oh just go for it, live dangerously and just post some new club suggestions.

[norsea]

Originally Posted by Forrest

Li Pets, I think I understood what you were trying to say, so I didn't take it "the wrong way" like some of the other posts. I think you are concerned about where someone coming out of no where wants to lead us.

Jim, you seem to be taking the lead and saying "follow me!" You've got a lot of enthusiasm for sure, but I've seen that before. The question is do you have the endurance? Since you do seem to be new to Airstreaming and to the forums I don't think its unreasonable to want to know something about the person that wants us to follow over to a new club.

So, who are you? I tried to go to your web site, but it doesn't seem to be functioning. You only sign your posts as "Jim" - Jim who? I went to your personal profile and it doesn't tell me much about you. This is a problem with forums... you could be anybody, maybe even Jim Franklin trying to led us malcontents out of the WBCCI!

First, as to the web site, I just went to it and it appears to be working fine; a typo in the name perhaps? The portion about our Airstream travels is definitely in its infancy and "under construction" definitely applies.

Our web site is actually three web sites. The one listed in my avatar relates to our Airstream travels.

There is Verna's Recipes which contains many, many pages of my wife's recipes that she has collected/developed over the years.

And then there is norseaodyssey.com. You learn more about us here than you ever wanted to know. You can also get to Verna's Recipies from here as well.

One thing I can guarantee, I am NOT Jim Franklin.

Another thing I can also guarantee is that I am NOT trying to lead anyone, malcontents or otherwise, from the WBCCI. The WBCCI, as I have stated in many posts on this forum (not just in this thread) is something that should be honored and respected by all who have anything to do with Airstreams.

It's just that the structure of the WBCCI does not provide what I would like to have in an Aristream club. I will leave it to those who want more info about my thoughts on the WBCCI to do a search on all of the (not so many) posts I have made here in these forums to read what my thoughts about the WBCCI are.

In addition to your request about info about me I have also received several messages from people asking why they should join a new Airstream club. I will address the later first and then include some info about us at the end of this post.

To be frank I don't know that I can answer the question as to why anyone should join a new Airstream club. Why anyone chooses to join any sort of social club is a highly individual and private decision.

The following is a message I received that asks something similar and perhaps this is what people are really curious about:

"For those that respond better to what the club would do for them if those sorts are allowed. ; ) rather than what they can do to structure the club, how about flashing forward and giving a few fun example of what the club might be for their experience to enjoy. You will have members asking why do I need the club or why do I want the club or thinking it at any rate."

All very good questions.

The answer as to why I would like a be a member of a new Airstream club is very simple. I am not at all enamored with the WBCCI. Enough said; see above for my suggestion if you want to know more about my thoughts on the subject.

To answer the question, "What's in it (building a new Airstream club) for me?", I offer the following:

I have searched high and low for an alternative Airstream club to the WBCCI. I have not found one. I'm the kind of guy who is more than willing to do a bit of work to reach a goal of interest. So, in order for me to have an Airstream social organization of which I can be a member, I decided that I would work toward the establishment of an Airstream club that would offer the kind of experience I am after.

Initially I wondered if a sufficient number of other people would be interested in a new club. My first thought was probably not; obviously I have changed my opinion on the mater.

As for my personal interests in a club I love nothing better than to arrive at a campground at the end of the day and find a few familiar faces with whom I can share the experience; after all, it is really all about the people.

But, having said that, I like the opportunity to "get out" and away from what is the norm for most; a local club with members from the local area. In past experiences with other clubs I find that having a national organization that can act as a focal point for many individual local clubs has a lot of value. An annual rally brings people together face to face and gives them the opportunity to "get up close and personal" with "friends from afar", for example.

As far as activities the club should offer I tend to look at this question in a very different light than most folks, I think. My immediate response to what activities should be offered would be, "Why, it should offer any activity that any member or members want to put together.".

Again, I am interested in the creation of an organization that is INCLUSIVE and NOT exclusive. What I would prefer to see as a part of the structure of a club is nothing stated about what can/should be the activities of the club. Some sort of statement along the lines of, "the club offers rally's at locations with full hookup as well as locations for the boondocking enthusiast, caravans to the annual club rally and charted club events, AND any such other activities that the members would like to organize. How about going river rafting? What about a weekend bicycling staying at campgrounds and/or BB's? From my perspective "the sky is the limit".

But, having said all of that l suspect that many of these activities are the type of things that a local club would do simply because geographically it is much easier. But, often times it is nice to do things with people from other locations if you are lucky enough to be able to travel and do that.

A national organization brings everyone together and provides opportunities for more people who are passionate about their Airstream to meet AND they can do so without being a member of a local club if they so desire. It's all about opportunities for people to INCLUDE themselves if they so desire.

As for us personally I will offer the following here and leave it to those who want to know more about us to go to Who We Are on our web site where you will learn more about us than you ever wanted to know.

My wife and I are very fortunate. We have been retired since 2000; we got out before the "bubble" burst"; life has been good to us. We retired early and are enjoying the freedom we have as a result. We have been traveling for the past 7 years outside the USA. We returned to the USA a year ago in May simply because the US Dollar had become so worthless that we could no longer afford to remain out of the country. We bought an Airstream; something we had planed to do many years later but as luck would have it the time was right and David at Colonial Airstream in New Jersey "made us an offer we could not refuse"; good people at Colonial IMNSHO by the way.

And, as is probably very apparent to everyone by now, I don't just sit on the local log and play the role of a bump. I like to be involved.

I'm also pretty good at being a devils advocate to the point of irritating lots of people if I should put my mind to it. But, all things being equal, I'd much rather NOT find myself in a position where I think it is necessary to exercise this particular skill.

We are traveling full time in our Airstream; a 30' Classic. We met a to of wonderful folks in the infancy of our Airstream travels last year. We plan to be at the Can Opener again this year. We also are planning on attending some other rally's as well. It's all a mater of the timing of where we are when something is scheduled. Luck of the draw and all that.

As to my "staying power" only time will tell. Frankly I think this will not be up to me. If there is sufficient interest that can be galvanized to move this process forward a new club is immanent. If people should choose not to participate then, obviously, nothing will be accomplished.

One of the first posts I made here on the Airfoum about a new Airstream Camping Club got very few replies and many were of the type that said this was a subject that had been beaten to death in a plethora of other threads. From my perspective nothing will get done unless someone comes forward to champion the cause. Want a new club? This is your chance to get involved and participate as much as you want. Not interested? Fine with me too. It's all about what the people here want to do.

Jim

[norsea]

Originally Posted by wheel interested

Silver Twinkie

works for me too and this page is entitled "who we are"

Who We Are

What's all the big concern to exchange ideas on the forum, am I missing something here? Or he could be the Pied Pieper and lead us as the children to a mountain and never be seen again. Oh just go for it, live dangerously and just post some new club suggestions.

Carol you're a hoot!!!

I've been referred to many times by two words by NEVER pied piper!

Jim,who is ROTFLMAO

[LI Pets]

Jim,

Forrest is correct, we don’t know who you are; we do know you have an Airstream since 11/07 or 9 months, we know you’re not a WBCCI member.
We know you first saw the existing Bylaws 12 days ago for the first time and now claim to be an expert on them and the WBCCI.
You contacted Airstream on your own to talk about a club.
On 8-16 you stated http://www.airforums.com/forums/f232...tml#post604356

Originally Posted by norsea

Lynn,

Thanks for posting the location of the WBCCI Bylaws.

As I have stated in posts in other threads:

• I am NOT a member of the WBCCI.

• I have done lots of research on the WBCCI

Your posting of a location for the WBCCI Bylaws helps me continue my ongoing education about the organization. Thanks commin' at ya.

Having just downloaded a copy

Now that I have started to examine the WBCCI Bylaws I am even more convinced that the structure of the WBCCI is the largest problem the organization faces.

Jim

You may be the next best thing to sliced bread but we don’t know you, to gain our trust tell us about yourself.

Tell us who you have been conferences with on this goal.

How can someone become such an expert on the Airstream way of life, the needs of it’s owners and develop a structure for a new club and have the NEW bylaws drafted?

Convince me.

[Forrest]

Jim,

I got to your web site, I'm impressed. Who are you? You are travelers, straight and simple. And you've done a lot of it, more perhaps than anyone else on the forum. Good for you.

I find your sections on Globalization interesting, the quote that you agree with, "integration of markets, nation-states and technologies to a degree never witnessed before—in a way that is enabling individuals, corporations and nation-states to reach around the world farther, faster, deeper and cheaper than ever before, and in a way that is enabling the world to reach into individuals," is to me scary. I've seen first hand how the integration of business and government as partners in pursuit of profit runs rough shod over the rights of citizens as guaranteed by the US Constitution. I've seen first hand how business protects profit, not inalienable rights, and when government becomes a business for profit rights become second to that profit. Just my thoughts on that, but nothing more since this isn't a forum on Globalization.