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Old 01-30-2011, 08:55 PM   #321
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Sorry Bob,
Why was there a need to “re-write” the WBCCI Constitution in the first place. I don’t remember anyone saying we needed to “re-write” the WBCCI Constitution.
You are quite correct!

Does anyone seriously believe that I would have spent the past year+ trying to amend the WBCCI Constitution if I didn't feel it was basically a sound document? I do not believe it needs to be replaced. All constitutions are fluid, living documents that need amending from time to time, but that does not mean they are so fundamentally flawed that they should just be junked.

The whole point of my amendment is to put a check and balance in place. To do that requires that delegates be delegates, not rubber stamps, not uniformed toy soldiers marched into a hot, stuffy auditorium and made so sit cheek and jowl on hard uncomfortable folding chairs. Until you've experienced this first hand you can not fully appreciate that our Delegate process has been held captive by the IBT & EC for decades.

It angers me to no end that so many are critical of the basic premise of the delegate concept and Robert's Rules based solely on their observations of a Club that has so perverted those concepts.

Look at the thousands of societies in the country that annually have conventions. Their delegates do not suffer the indignities that ours do. They are real representatives of their chapters, and practiced in parliamentary skill.

I look at ours and they can hardly wait to get out of the auditorium. If you are not willing to practice democracy then you will not have democracy. It's that simple, and what scares me, really, really scares me is that if we can not have democracy in this little club, then what hope do we have elsewhere?

It is as important to aspire here, as it is on the national level.

This one member, one vote sounds catchy, simple, easy to understand, and that is its allure, but as I've argued previously, electronic voting is a poor substitute for a parliamentary practice that represents hundreds of years of accumulated experience and wisdom.

And by the way, the Denver Colorado Unit motion is not dead!
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:14 PM   #322
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I was at the Mid-Winter IBT and the Prevost was the only SOB in our parking... I can not understand why that had to be such an issue but I'm not surprised.
It's an issue because in the past, International officers have ordered that SOB leave the rally. Numerous Units have been given warning that the rules do not permit it (except for buddy rallies). So, naturally it upsets some members to see this at an IBT rally. If the rules apply to us, then they should at least apply equally to the leaders.
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:57 PM   #323
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It is important to understand that the Constitution and its Bylaws are a very integrated package, where any change, even a small one, can have unintended consequences in one, two or five other areas.
This is complete bunk and easy to demonstrate. The Bylaws can be totally junked, throw them into the trash can. The Constitution would remain unchanged.

What you probably mean to say is that a change in the Constitution can require numerous changes in the Bylaws. So what? The Bylaws are subservient to the Constitution, not the other way around.

Sec. 1 Bylaws and Policies not inconsistent with this Constitution embodying additional provisions for the government of the Wally Byam Caravan Club International, Inc., may be adopted by the Board of Trustees.

This is the section that the Board ignores routinely. Tell me, what do all the pages of rules on flags have to do with the Constitution? How are they consistent with it?

I recently discovered that the Suggested Model of Unit Constitution and Bylaws in the Blue Book is not consistent with the Constitution. Read Article XII, Delegates Meeting, Section 4 of the Constitution, then go read Article VI Delegates Section 1 of the Model. Notice how the Affiliate Member provision has been rewritten and made mandatory for inclusion in Unit Constitutions.

The Code of Ethics has now been placed as a preamble to the Constitution. When did the delegates vote on that? Do you not know that the Code of Ethics, what you say will become a Standard of Conduct, was never a Bylaw and was never an Article or part of the Constitution. It was never voted on by the Delegates, nor was it ever voted on by the IBT. If it had been it would be included in either of the Constitution or the Bylaws as an article or section. But it is only found in the Suggested Model of Unit Constitutions and Bylaws.

While at Jackson Center last year, I asked Cindy Reed how and when it came into being. She researched it for me and could not find it in any document, not in any minutes. Nor could she tell me who the author was or how it came into being. One year it just simply appeared in the Membership Directory and it has since been used to expell and suspend members. How is that consistent with the Constitution?

Our problem is not the Constitution!
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Old 01-30-2011, 10:58 PM   #324
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Thanks Forrest.
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:23 AM   #325
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And just for emphasis I want to reprint this post of JStanley's that is also very wonderful and in keeping with what Forrest has been saying.

Quote:
“We the people are the rightful masters of both the Congress and the Courts - not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln

“I am not bound to win, but I am bound to be true. I am not bound to succeed, but I am bound to live by the light that I have. I must stand with anybody that stands right, and stand with him while he is right, and part with him when he goes wrong.” Abraham Lincoln
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:53 AM   #326
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Forrest, We have only met once face to face, but I want you to now you are my hero. Instead of using threats and intimidation you have used the very rules they have established to lead the cause. It is refreshing to see intelligence this way.
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:22 AM   #327
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"

I am aware that one member's non-Airstream motorhome was used to tow an Airstream Interstate to the 2011 Mid-Winter IBT Meeting parking site. Utilities were connected to the Interstate. This was the situation as I know it."
[/I]
Above quote from IP

Since the IP is such an advocate of following the constitution and bylaws to the letter I am sure that he visited the Interstate during the night and confirmed those folks were actually sleeping in it.

Any one know who was in it. ? anyone want to speculate whether it was one of our IBT members?? Any one think it was a member just passing by to observe the meetings?
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:31 AM   #328
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"While at Jackson Center last year, I asked Cindy Reed how and when it came into being. She researched it for me and could not find it in any document, not in any minutes. Nor could she tell me who the author was or how it came into being. One year it just simply appeared in the Membership Directory and it has since been used to expell and suspend members. How is that consistent with the Constitution?

Our problem is not the Constitution! "
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It would seem that this would make any actions using the code of ethics completely invalid?

We once had a lawsuit that probably could have used these grounds
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:56 AM   #329
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This is complete bunk and easy to demonstrate. The Bylaws can be totally junked, throw them into the trash can. The Constitution would remain unchanged.
Not when the New Bylaws are inconsistent!

Quote:
What you probably mean to say is that a change in the Constitution can require numerous changes in the Bylaws. So what? The Bylaws are subservient to the Constitution, not the other way around.
No

How about we all wait until the Constitution is published
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:22 AM   #330
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Publish it already, so we can see what we are talking about.
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:07 AM   #331
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Not when the New Bylaws are inconsistent!
I sounds as though your committee wrote bylaws and then modeled a new constitution to fit them. That would be completely backward. Bylaws are always subordinate to a constitution, and not just in Robert's Rules, but in law.
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:57 AM   #332
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Hi Forrest, PM sent.
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:03 PM   #333
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Three Questions:

Is Lipets an officer or an official spokesman authorized to speak on behalf of the IP, the PIP, the EC, the IBT, the chairwoman of the special committee, and/or the parliamentarian?

Does silence from the leadership imply their acquiescence?

Who besides the IP can officially speak or misspeak for the club?
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:23 PM   #334
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Is Lipets an officer or an official spokesman authorized to speak on behalf of the IP, the PIP, the EC, the IBT, the chairwoman of the special committee, and/or the parliamentarian?
I'm speaking as a Revision Committee member, and or as an individual member.

Quote:
Does silence from the leadership imply their acquiescence?
I would believe it does not.
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:36 PM   #335
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In some country's, they create the laws first to control the people, then draw up a Constitution to prove to the people they have the power to do so.

I think it's called a dictatorship!
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:38 PM   #336
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In some country's, they create the laws first to control the people, then draw up a Constitution to prove to the people they have the power to do so.

I think it's called a dictatorship!
Paul

I think your misguided attacks on Bob, and most likely to me once your read this, can either be because you have forgotten the history leading to the Revision Committee or you have chosen to ignore it just for the ability to through rocks.

While you were President of WDCU and attempted to make changes to the Club did anyone ridicule you to this extent for your efforts?

Bob did not propose the the formation of the Committee and is but one of 5 members that have worked for several months at the request of the IP to present a more modern Constitution. Yes it has been presented to the EX Board and yes it will be presented to the membership long before it is enacted or voted down. Why not wait until you have read it before you beside against it. Unlike the Health Bill we should be able to read it before we vote on it.

Forrest

I am surprised at you position towards something you have not yet read. If you recall you and i had several phone conversation regarding your amendment and and my comment that i thought it had to be a principle part of the rewritten Constitution. You had commented that you thought the Feckless Leadership would try and find a way to derail your amendment and so far they have. I still believe your, if not enacted or included in any rewriting Constitution there is NO FUTURE for the Club.

I am shocked that the IP has signed on with the Feckless Leadership, most likely to protected his acceptance in the IPP Fraternity. We should stop fighting each other hear while they continue the Grand American Tour and get behind the dissemination of the New Constitution and then start the debate.

They may attempt to stonewall the publication in the BB of cost reasons, which is a cheap excuse, but if necessary I will se that it is emailed to every unit office and hope that at least one officer in each unit will present it to the membership.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:13 PM   #337
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Howie,

I would like to see it e mailed to every known address, I know better than to wait for it to be decimated from my unit officers. Hopefully it can be posted on the web somewhere for download or even on the WBCCI site.
I will not form any opinions until I read it,but hope it won't take to long to get it distributed.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:45 PM   #338
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Howie,

. . . I know better than to wait for it to be decimated from my unit officers. . . .
That's the best homynym I've heard in months, thanks!
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:55 PM   #339
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I know better than to wait for it to be decimated from my unit officers.
The officers of our unit, and for that matter, our region, have already been decimated. In the case of the region officers that may be just as well, since we are told that the regions themselves are soon to be decimated.

However, as a unit officer I faithfully promise to promptly disseminate any news of the new, improved constitution and bylaws that come to me.

Interestingly, however, the latest missive from the IP arrived in my email box from Constant Contact a week or so after the same information was posted on Airforums.
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:17 PM   #340
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Once released, I will get it online.
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